*i need your opinion***

monsterman · January 22, 2006 9:25AM

for over a year i have been getting the cold shoulder from a upgrader i have done biz with over the years...and he just told me why...is he right or wrong...here is the story

at the 2004 ana he came up to me on the floor and said i know where a coin is you will want...i said ok what is it and whats the deal

he said its a _______ and the price is 10,000 and i want a 20% finders fee.....while i dont want to mention what it was ( for obvious reasons ) i will say the price at 10,000 was double sheet and high enough but adding 2,000 to it ...it was really high but it would be worth it to me if it was indeed a monster

one word of note....i " hang " and display some of my coins at john doe`s table for collectors to see whats really out there and i hover around john doe`s table all during the show and also keep my bag behind his table and during the day come back there 10 times a day or more...not to mention i have bought and sold dozens of coins from him over the years

anyway the upgrader and i went to the table where he knew the coin i should buy was.....upon getting there the dealer said he just sold it to...none other than my buddy where i hang all the time... john doe...anyway...we then went over to john doe`s table...it was in his case...in his..."not for sale" case....we both went hummmmm as when we looked he said its not for sale and off went the upgrader

well seeing as how i know him very well and in fact hang there all the time i started asking to please buy it which then turned to begging.....after a few hours on my knees and citing the fact he would know it went to a great and commited collectors home he finnaly sucummed to my plea and agreed to sell it to me...and the price was 13,000 which is more than the 10,000 plus 2,000 for a total of 12,000 before

so for all this time the upgrader has always thought i owed him 2,000 for finding the coin...when in fact i would of found it in a few minutes after he even mentioned it to me...and at the end of the day ....john doe did indeed buy the coin with me in mind but had many outs if i didnt buy it anyway so it was a no brainer for him

do you think i owe the upgrader 2,000 ......which btw would increase the cost from his original statement of 12,000 to 15,000

your thoughts

monsterman

ps...chime in here dealers i ( we ) need your input too !!!!

Nic · January 22, 2006 9:29AM

No. K

Russ · January 22, 2006 9:30AM

I can see his point of view, but I think he's being petty about it.

Russ, NCNE

TommyType · January 22, 2006 9:32AM

Considering that the "upgrader" had no stake in the coin at any point, my opinion is that $2000 (20%) was pretty strong money to begin with!

So, $2g's is out the window....but maybe a few hundred for keeping you in mind might be appropriate.....But honestly, this is all outside my area of expertise, so feel free to ignore me.

Bailey1977 · January 22, 2006 9:33AM

absolutely not....

coinbuf · January 22, 2006 9:35AM

All depends on how much you value the relationship with this person. Even if you do pay him will things go back to normal or has too much water passed under the bridge. Only you can answer this.

Chris

goose3 · January 22, 2006 9:36AM

tell the upgrader to shove it.

fc · January 22, 2006 9:37AM

wow, what a tough call.

i think the finder did assist you enough to warrant making a deal
with him.

since you did not buy the coin at 10,000 like the finder said you
could, this means you might be able to adjust the deal and both
walk away happy.

why not give the person 1000 as a finders fee due to you having
to pay more than that person said.

braddick · January 22, 2006 9:40AM

No, you're under no obligation.
Possibly you could forward this thread to him to read and in the privacy of his own home read this and realize his error in judgement.

cho10 · January 22, 2006 9:42AM

<< wow, what a tough call. i think the finder did assist you enough to warrant making a deal with him. since you did not buy the coin at 10,000 like the finder said you could, this means you might be able to adjust the deal and both walk away happy. why not give the person 1000 as a finders fee due to you having to pay more than that person said. >>

I was about to write the same.
2000 is too much.
If the coin finder person really has helped you in the past, his fees are part of how he makes his living.
All of us hate paying commissions at some stage. If we do pay them it is more because we expect more deals to come through the person we are paying than because we feel it is our duty.
You may find that he takes offense at 1000. That could happen. But to not pay him at all is not a good idea.
So what you need to do is establish whether the relationship with this guy is worth parting company with 1000 or not.
Only you can answer that question.

pharmer · January 22, 2006 9:42AM

John Doe may or may not have let you in on the coin, you'll never know. The upgrader did get you to the coin, at least. Up to you whether that's worth something or not.

monsterman · January 22, 2006 9:45AM

fc

and everyone else...i appreciate your input

but fc

>>>>i think the finder did assist you enough to warrant making a deal
with him.

how did he assist me ....i would of seen it in less than 30 minutes and im 99.9% sure it would not of been sold as it was not for sale...although i did indeed buy it...dealers like for the word to get out about the monster coins they handle...in fact i have bought coins from him before where as he asked me to leave them in his case until the show is over

so i dont see how he insisted me at all except that .01% that someone would of come up in the 30 minutes it was there and offered dbouble dumb money which albeit could of happened but unlikely in 30 minutes

monsterman

rainbowroosie · January 22, 2006 9:45AM

No, but if you really like what he does for you tip him $500 for trying.

ldhair · January 22, 2006 9:47AM

I may be wrong but 2K is asking too much.
Maybe a great steak dinner and a thank you are in order.

TONEDDOLLARS · January 22, 2006 9:48AM

I would like to believe that a compromise would work here. A little "Solomons wisdom" if you will.

fc · January 22, 2006 9:51AM

MM,

i think it is the timing of the situation that lends credence to the
finder. in good faith he tried to take you to a coin he thought you
would really want. it was too bad the coin was sold, but the finder,
with the help of the dealer brought you to it in a round about way.

lets say he took you to a different dealer, not your friend. you
were able to purchase the coin. would the finder still warrant
payment?

i think what is confusing the situation is the fact your dealer friend
bought the coin and you hang out with him.

edited to add: what makes the finder deserve less in my mind, was
the fact he brought you late to the coin and his quoted price of
10,000 was no longer accurate.

monsterman · January 22, 2006 9:51AM

pharmer

>>>>The upgrader did get you to the coin, at least

i appreciate your thoughts but...as i stated ( albeit a little lenght) that i had my coins on display in his not for sale case and the coin in question was right next to mine and since i hang there all during a show i would be seen it in 30 minutes or less if myslf and the upgrader had never seen one another

monsterman

TwoSides2aCoin · January 22, 2006 9:52AM

<< No, but if you really like what he does for you tip him $500 for trying. >>

best advice is there.... he is obviously a capitalist doing his job and he should be paid accordingly.... but, I'd try a dinner first.... if that don't work, the five bills will surely be hush money and if he believes you owe him a percentage for finding it, then he should also foot the bill for the extra you had to pay

gtstang · January 22, 2006 9:54AM

You should tell him that he owes you $500. Since he quoted you $10,000+$2000 for $12,000 and you ended up paying $13,000, tell him you will split the difference with him which would owe you $500

TomB · January 22, 2006 9:55AM

In this particular case I don't believe the agent helped you at all since not only was the coin sold prior to your arriving at the table, and thus voiding a potential agreement with the agent, but the coin had been bought by someone you already had a close relationship with and would likely have had a shot through. To me, therefore, you clearly owe this person nothing. However, if you believe this person can still help you in the future then you may be willing to "grease the wheels" so to speak and offer a token of thanks.

This scenario points out the potential problems folks might encounter when they spread their want lists around to too many people. If the coins are tough to find then the prices go up as there is a perceived increase in demand. Also, you run the risk of alienating the specific people you are hoping will help you by having too many flock to the same pieces. To make this clear, I do not think you did this, but wanted to bring the issue to light.

monsterman · January 22, 2006 9:56AM

pharmer

>>>John Doe may or may not have let you in on the coin, you'll never know

id say your right if the coin was not displayed....id gladly pay the money ...even though more than the 12,000 ...if the coin was back behind the table out of sight....as we wouldnt know if john doe would display it while i was at the show...

but

seeing as how it was on display...that changes the whole circumstances...as i would of seen it

monsterman

coinguy1 · January 22, 2006 10:15AM

<< do you think i owe the upgrader 2,000 >>

In the scenario as specifically presented - no.

I feel that the up-grader was piggish in trying to make $2000 for such little time/trouble on a coin he did not own. Adding insult to injury, he was (apparently) neglectful in getting the coin placed on hold until you could view it, etc. He was due nothing more than a thank you for (possibly) having speeded up the process by which you located a coin you would have found anyway.

MM, out of fairness to the unnamed party who is not here to speak on his own behalf, I now ask that you play devil's advocate. Please make a case for the up-grader, by telling us what his best arguments would be in trying to justify why he feels he was/is owed the $2000?

Nic · January 22, 2006 10:17AM

He could have bought the coin to earn your 2K+. Make it up to him on the next deal

. K

TheRaven · January 22, 2006 10:18AM

I don't think you really owe him anything.....

1. If the coin was bought by me for example (would be nice to have that for 1 coin btw) and I left the show the coin would be in my collection and you where never got it, would that person feel you owe him anything?

2. If he let it slip you where interested in the coin, it was his fault for mentioning it to somebody else.....

3. He should purchased the coin when he saw it, but did not.....

Now if you need him in the future I would say greasing the wheel is not a bad thing.....

TommyType · January 22, 2006 10:20AM

<< I feel that the up-grader was piggish in trying to make $2000 for such little time/trouble on a coin he did not own. >>

I'm curious: As a guy who might get involved in a deal such as this, what kind of commission would you request? (Feel free to be generalize....I'm not really looking for your price menu.)

lava · January 22, 2006 10:24AM

What's the issue? I can see how he could claim entitlement for leading you to a coin for sale in the event you buy that coin. He did not do that in this case. He led you to a coin that had already been sold. His claim ended when dealing number one said "sorry, just sold it."
It is fortuitous that you ended up with the coin, not because of anything the claimant did.

I think the guy should come around.

This happens in real estate all the time. There the situation is usually handled by a provision in the listing agreement that states the realtor's entitlement to a commission expires 45, 60 or 90 (pick one) days after the listing expires. This is intended to give the realtor some commission in the event a crafty buyer learns of a property through the realtor's efforts, but waits for the listing to expire in the hope of approaching the potential buyer, avoiding a commission, and sharing the savings.

So if you bought the coin ten years later, the guy would still want a commission. He sounds a little greedy.

Keyrock · January 22, 2006 10:25AM

If the deal was done with his assistance then yes the finders fee is in play. The fact is that the deal was not done with the person he found the coin with. At that moment you lost the coin, he lost the fee. John Doe "found the coin" for you. I'd buy the guy a few beers. If he's still a A$$ about it, I'd send him this post post and say Cya.

My 2 cents

BAJJERFAN · January 22, 2006 10:26AM

<< ....john doe did indeed buy the coin with me in mind but had many outs if i didnt buy it anyway so it was a no brainer for him >>

then y did yu have to literally beg him to sell it to you?

the one favor the upgrader did for you is tell wut John Doe had in the coin which was the $10K. had you not known that he could have whacked you for $15K or more so at least he maybe saved yu a bit 'o cash. I would give him a couple hundred just cuz yer a nice guy!!

Cameonut · January 22, 2006 10:27AM

Monsterman
You have been great at dispensing wisdom on these boards for quite some time. I have learned alot from you.

Just the fact that you created this post means that this situation must be bugging you. You must have thought this through and have struggled to come to a conclusion. I hope the feedback on this thread is of help.

As for my two cents worth, I think the circumstances are quite unique. I can see how this could happen and the solution is not clear-cut in my mind based on the info provided so far.

Is the upgrader a valued associate? If he has brought you leads in the past, he is not likely to do so in the future based on how he feels he has been treated. In his mind, he believes he is owed $2k despite the fact this is a unique situation. To him, the fact that you would have seen the coin in the normal course of business is not a factor. Personally, I believe he is wrong. So if you value the relationship, I would offer to meet halfway - offer him $1k and move on. I think both sides might find that an acceptable solution. Encourage him to continue to bring leads to you and you'll continue to make it worth his while. I have a feeling the $1k is not that significant an amount of money for you and having the upgrader continue to bring leads to you is of greater value.

On the other hand, if the upgrader is a "once in a while" kind of guy and you are not on the best of terms, then I don't think there is much downside to saying you don't feel you owe him anything.

As you know, finding monster coins requires building relationships with people so they will bring their coins to you first. Only you can decide the best way to handle the situation.

Good luck.

fc · January 22, 2006 10:27AM

bajjerfan, excellent point that was not brought up yet!
well done.

coinguy1 · January 22, 2006 10:29AM

<>

I'm curious: As a guy who might get involved in a deal such as this, what kind of commission would you request? (Feel free to be generalize....I'm not really looking for your price menu.)

It would depend upon my relationship with the other party, what I thought/knew the chances were that he would learn about the coin without my efforts and the reasonableness (or lack thereof) of the price it was being offered at. Sight-unseen, my guess would be $250-$500, or in the alternative, leaving it up to the buyer as to what he thought was fair.

coinfreak499 · January 22, 2006 10:40AM

How long was he looking for this coin for you? Did you make a deal with him before to find coins for you or did he just pull the "finders fee" idea out of his a$$? I don't think you owe him anything $3k in profits is enough.

pharmer · January 22, 2006 10:48AM

<< pharmer

>>>John Doe may or may not have let you in on the coin, you'll never know

id say your right if the coin was not displayed....id gladly pay the money ...even though more than the 12,000 ...if the coin was back behind the table out of sight....as we wouldnt know if john doe would display it while i was at the show...

but

seeing as how it was on display...that changes the whole circumstances...as i would of seen it

monsterman >>

I see your point. If he didn't affect the outcome, he doesn't deserve $2000.

MORGANHUNTER2 · January 22, 2006 10:56AM

NO- plain and simple- no finders fee- he did not hold the coin at the designated price of 10K- of which ad you bought it from dealer A, for the 10K, he would have rcvd his finders fee of 2K that you had agreed on, instead you found the coin with someone else and paid a premium of 3K over- of which I'd bet your friend made a piece of change from the sale and did not let you in on it.

Therfor - zero, zilch- he should be thankful you did not get pissed that he did not have it on hold for you to sya yeah or nay to.

I would have been pissed to dish out 3K more than what I wanted to go at.

Bochiman · January 22, 2006 10:58AM

You owe him NOTHING.
Unless you asked him to spend his time at that show, scouring for that particular coin (or maybe even any other), then what he did was try to drum up business himself.
If you had walked over there and bought it, I still would think $2000 would be too much (20%) for nothing more than locating it. He had NO risk (no downside other than no profit if you didn't buy).

He sounds kind of scummy to me to insist you owe him the money when he didn't do much nor was it at your direction (from the sounds of it).

He has likely cost himself more than $2000 from you by doing what he did.......

Sounds like "john doe" made a nice 30% profit in short time though

monsterman · January 22, 2006 11:12AM

bajj

>>>>then y did yu have to literally beg him to sell it to you?

i had to beg him because i 100% feel he wanted to own it a while...meaning more than a few days...and once it left the show i knew others would be in front of him begging too and then they would of owned it not me so it was get it then or never!!!

>>>> the one favor the upgrader did for you is tell wut John Doe had in the coin which was the $10K. had you not known that he could have whacked you for $15K

good point and would of ...under different circumstances been a key point....but john doe had indeed stated his price without even knowing that i knew what he paid for the coin

mark

>>>>MM, out of fairness to the unnamed party who is not here to speak on his own behalf, I now ask that you play devil's advocate. Please make a case for the up-grader, by telling us what his best arguments would be in trying to justify why he feels he was/is owed the $2000?

as you know you have many more callings as a profession so in your next life you might try ambassador or lawyer then retiring to the bench for the final 20 years of law

back to your point...his answer to my request to justify his opinion ....
was weak where as he said i probably wouldnt of found the coin at john doe`s table.......as he had not known of my relationship with john doe.....and when i stated such i dont think he fully understood....or really heard me...or it didnt really sink in....as i think my statement of the facts went right by his head...and he kept insisting i owed him.....but did weaken his gravity level from 2,000 to "something"...as we left it at that at the time as we each had to go else where

the only problem i had was the way it went down where as i felt i was being held up .....

at the end of the day here ....i have garnered a lot of good opinions and insight....all of you have added some thought and i appreciate it

all of which i will take under consideration from which to come to a conclusion

monsterman

Myqqy · January 22, 2006 11:13AM

Freakin' no way do you owe him 2K......

stman · January 22, 2006 11:16AM

Before I call the "Upgrader" a slimy weasel with sweat dripping down his forehead and hand wringing.... I need to know whether it's a respected board member?

FatMan · January 22, 2006 11:18AM

Wow, 20% for finding a coin and putting no effort into securing the coin other than to tell you was available. That is absurd in any kind of business situation. I guess I must be naive when it comes to these types of coin transactions.

BigMoose · January 22, 2006 11:19AM

monsterman, it sounds to me like the upgrader actually owes You at least $1000.00 as he did not have the good sense to put the coin on hold with the initial dealer who was offering the coin for $10000.00. Had he done so, the coin would have cost you $12000.00 total( the upgraders $2000.00 finders fee included ) and not $13000.00 from the second dealer. In my opinion, the upgrader's "finders fee" evaporated as soon as the first dealer sold the coin.

BAJJERFAN · January 22, 2006 11:21AM

wut yu feel that you could or should give him depends on how much you value a future relationship with him and as was said earlier only you can determine that value.

Newmismatist · January 22, 2006 11:24AM

<< the price is 10,000 and i want a 20% finders fee >>

Seems high doesn't it? But then you paid $13k fior the coin anyway and had to beg to get it - so the upgrader's service would have been a bargain as you ended up paying $3k rather than $2K more than the initial offering price - a 50% increase over the "excessive" $2K as a matter of fact. So the upgader's offer to you was a "bargain" when you consider the end result and what you paid.

Should you pay the upgrader? That depends whether you want him to assist you in the future in finding "monster" coins - If not, tell him no, you don't need his services -

OTH - If you want his assistence in the future than you should sit down and fairly work out something that is acceptable to both of you - a person who collects the best coins would be wise to maintain a good relationship with those who get the best (or know where to get) types of coins that he wants.

On the other hand you can always pay your regular sources MORE and be happy that you have to beg to get those coins

BTW - legally, you owe him nothing - (But there's always those other coins in the future.)

Coinhusker1 · January 22, 2006 11:39AM

<< monsterman, it sounds to me like the upgrader actually owes You at least $1000.00 as he did not have the good sense to put the coin on hold with the initial dealer who was offering the coin for $10000.00. Had he done so, the coin would have cost you $12000.00 total( the upgraders $2000.00 finders fee included ) and not $13000.00 from the second dealer. In my opinion, the upgrader's "finders fee" evaporated as soon as the first dealer sold the coin. >>

Good point. If the "upgrader" services are so valuable to warrant a 20% commission, why did he not have the sense to put the coin on hold? And now he wants you to fork over another $2k after you had to pay $1k too much to begin with? Fuggetaboutit!!

ms70 · January 22, 2006 12:03PM

Trying to get 20% for a coin he had no stake in is nothing but attempted theft. Dump the upgrader & don't feel bad about it for a second.

roadrunner · January 22, 2006 12:16PM

You're in the clear on this deal. But if you value the potential future services of the upgrader, a token payment of $500 for example might be worthwhile. Since this is now almost 2 years ago I'd have to wonder on the value of said upgrader.

roadrunner

MikeInFL · January 22, 2006 12:30PM

I'll play devil's advocate....

This reminds me a bit of a lesson used on law students:

A man jumps off a building intent on killing himeslf. A man on the 20th story decides to shoot the man before he falls to his death. Is the shooter guilty of murder? Yes.

The upgrader finds a coin, you cut a deal with an upgrader, but the coin has been sold to another dealer. Is your deal valid? Yes.

You agree to a 20% finders fee, go to another dealer to fetch the coin but it's gone. It just happens to land at a friendly dealer's table and you aquire the coin there. Putting myself in the finder's shoes, why shouldn't he be entitled to his finder's fee? He helped you find the coin.

I suppose it comes down to your agreement with the finder. Was it "find coin x for y price at z dealer and pay 20% finder's fee" or was it "find coin x for 20% finders fee". If it was the latter, you have little if any ground to stand on. If it was the former, then the finder has no argument. If the agreement was not specific, then it is a bit of a grey area...

I'm just not clear on how the happenstance of the coin landing in your friend's lap should influence your having to pay a finder's fee. What if the coin was in a different dealer's inventory and you made the deal, would you then pay him his finder's fee? I have to believe the answer is yes and therefore your obligation to the finder should stand regardless of which dealer had the coin.

FatMan · January 22, 2006 12:42PM

Mike, here is how it is presented to us.

<< he said its a _______ and the price is 10,000 and i want a 20% finders fee.....while i dont want to mention what it was ( for obvious reasons ) i will say the price at 10,000 was double sheet and high enough but adding 2,000 to it ...it was really high but it would be worth it to me if it was indeed a monster >>

If this is accurate, once the price was no longer $10,000 the contract was voided. Now if MM had an arrangement set where he said he would pay this guy 20% for any coin he found for him that he in turn purchased, then MM owes him 20% of the purchase price regardless of the third party transaction.

MikeInFL · January 22, 2006 12:46PM

<< Mike, here is how it is presented to us.

<< he said its a _______ and the price is 10,000 and i want a 20% finders fee.....while i dont want to mention what it was ( for obvious reasons ) i will say the price at 10,000 was double sheet and high enough but adding 2,000 to it ...it was really high but it would be worth it to me if it was indeed a monster >>

If this is accurate, once the price was no longer $10,000 the contract was voided. Now if MM had an arrangement set where he said he would pay this guy 20% for any coin he found for him that he in turn purchased, then MM owes him 20% of the purchase price regardless of the third party transaction. >>

Darn it, I never was a good devil.

I still think MM owes the guy something. Obviously, given the recent explanation, the finder thinks that way too.

Had the coin gone to another dealer, not MM's friend, and the deal been cut at $13k, would MM owe him a finder's fee?

Listen, the finder made a mistake when he didn't put the coin on hold. That's undeniable, but does that invalidate his right to any finders fee?

monsterman · January 22, 2006 12:48PM

cameonut

thanks for your cudos about other posts...as far as this situation your are very perceptive...it does bother me as i thought i knew him better than that as i would always be fair..and in light of the circumstances i thought i was

coinfreak

>>>>> How long was he looking for this coin for you?

he wasnt looking although he did come across it during his " run of the bourse"

>>>>>Did you make a deal with him before to find coins for you or did he just pull the "finders fee" idea out of his a$$

no... first time this isue ever came up...all the other times he owned the coins

monsterman

BaronVonBaugh · January 22, 2006 1:01PM

Food for thought: Your friend may have only paid $8000! You know how dealers always get better prices!

tradedollarnut · January 22, 2006 1:01PM

It would be interesting to know what he considers fair at this point. Since he's not asking for the $2k, asking us if paying him $2k is fair seems like a bit of a wasted exercise.

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