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Will AT and Dipping eventually ruin the hobby ?
CTcollector
Posts: 201
These are my thoughts and I am curious to other opinions. Now I will start out by saying that coins have always been dipped and messed with to one extent or another. However, over the last few years I have noticed an alarming trend. Dipped/Conserved and AT coins are becoming increasingly more "market acceptable" in the hobby. The extent to what grades they will recieve from the TPG's has significantly increased, the extent to dealers offering such coins has significantly increased, and the extent to which newer or temporary hobbyist's not caring if a coin has been processed as long as it has a desirable grade on the holder has also significnatly increased. Some may say, so whats wrong with that, everyone is happy and making money, etc... The problem I see is that there is a back bone to the hobby. Those are traditional collectors who prefer original un-tampered with coins. These are collectors who have been around for several years, through up and down cycles, and can be most counted on to be active in the hobby in the future. These collectors are passionate about coins. They appreciate the beauty and the uniqueness of each coin that they own. They are turned off by color enhancements and dipping for higher plastic grades. They avoid those coins at all costs. I believe if given the choice of collecting market acceptable AT or conserved coins versus leaving the hobby, a good number will leave the hobby. I certainly put myself in that camp.
Now why the concern on my part ? Processed or questionable color coins, used to be limited to certain TPG grades, if not rejected all together. I see more AT creeping into higher and higher grades. A large number of gem seated and barber proofs are dipped or conserved, forever washed out. Some will say the TPG's are rejecting more coins today than ever before. That may be the case, but there are more people into "grading arbitrage" than ever before and as a result there are more people enhancing coins in pursuit of that next higher grade and easy money. As a result, we get more coins in holders that are commercially desirable but not numismatically desirable.
So what happens, when the grading arbitrage game maxes out and those people leave the hobby, Newer collectors come to the realization and potential disappointment of what they are holding in their collections, and traditional collectors have nothing more to be passionate about ?
For clarification when I say conserved, I am referring to otherwise perfectly fine coins that are getting a bath for no other reason than pursuit of a higher grade. Not coins that are in legitimate need of conservation (shipwreck coins, etc.)
I realize I am going to get flamed for bringing this up, but I believe this deserves some serious discussion.
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Comments
<< <i>Your statements lead me to believe that you don't perceive a problem with dipped or ATed coins, just the TPGs willingness to slab them. I believe that TPGs have done more to ruin the hobby than dipped or ATed coins ever will. >>
I put myself in the traditionalist camp - so I am not a fan of dipping and I absolutely despise AT.
I would not solely blame TPG's for current state of AT and dipping. Certainly if there was no collector demand or a dealer network willing to sell product, these coins would not be showing up in holders. In my opinion, there is enough blame to go around.
<< <i>Will AT and Dipping eventually ruin the hobby ? >>
I'm sure several will disagree with you, but not me!
Remember this: YOU CAN NEVER UNDO WHAT YOU'VE DONE!!!!
<< <i>Your statements lead me to believe that you don't perceive a problem with dipped or ATed coins, just the TPGs willingness to slab them. >>
Huh ?
<< <i>I believe that TPGs have done more to ruin the hobby than dipped or ATed coins ever will. >>
Huh again ? Were you in this hobby before TPG's ? Care to comment ? Tell us why the TPG's are worse than AT and conservation for No Reason.
Ken
The number of high grade seated and barber proofs in conserved 66-69 holders is just mind-numbing to me. 15 years ago you couldn't even get a 67 grade unless a coin was original and a knockout. Dipped type coins as a rule were shunned. But with limited product, lots of newbies via the internet, and the CAM/DCAM game, the hucksters have found another niche.
I don't have any issue with moderns going CAM and DCAM since many have not toned in their mint packaging. But when the only way to DCAM on 19th century coinage is to dip it, then I have issue with that. And eventually, that coin WILL tone back some. Give it long enough and likely it won't be a DCAM anymore.
roadrunner
I put myself in the traditionalist camp - so I am not a fan of dipping and I absolutely despise AT.
I would not solely blame TPG's for current state of AT and dipping. Certainly if there was no collector demand or a dealer network willing to sell product, these coins would not be showing up in holders. In my opinion, there is enough blame to go around.
By overemphasiszing luster as a component of the overall grade, the TPGs (including hallowed PCGS) have hardly discouraged dipping and have contributed to the problem, not the solution, to this point. I personally am in favor of an "original surface" designation on classic coins.
Ken
All of those originally toned coins started out bright. All you gotta do is lay them back down for a few decades and what you've done has been undone...
<< <i>By overemphasiszing luster as a component of the overall grade, the TPGs (including hallowed PCGS) have hardly discouraged dipping and have contributed to the problem, not the solution, to this point. I personally am in favor of an "original surface" designation on classic coins. >>
My limited experience has never shown me where luster was enhanced by dipping a coin. Only the shiney factor.
When it comes to NCS conservation I think all coins I have been stuck with had luster that was impaired. The shiney factor was greatly enhanced though.
Ken
What percentage of the coins considered 'original surfaces' have been dipped or otherwise played with in the past? I suspect it is QUITE large.
<< <i>By overemphasiszing luster as a component of the overall grade, the TPGs (including hallowed PCGS) have hardly discouraged dipping and have contributed to the problem, not the solution, to this point. I personally am in favor of an "original surface" designation on classic coins. >>
NO, AT and dipping will not eventually ruin the hobby... not as long as there are purists who are numismatists. You doctors cannot ruin all the coins.
roadrunner'
Hi, Roadrunner! Agree with your entry and want to comment on a n extension of the above quote.
As an SBA and Ike devotee, it is clear to me that the dramatic increase in high-grade silver Ikes and PR69CAM and DCAM Ikes in recent years (and their corresponding price colapse) is due to dipping. Mint packaging in these years led to ugly white fogging of many of the silver Ikes and to various fog problems with the proofs so original high-grade examples are not common.
Dipping these coins, whether in an acid bath or using an alkyline-degergent cleaning, led to a flood of "blast-white" silvers and splendid watery proof Ikes. This is neither bad nor good, it just is, UNLESS the dipping or cleaing leads to premature fogging in the future inside the holder. I think the jury is still out on that one.
I can report that a bag of 2000 SBAs I recently examined for subs and keepers showed a rather high incidence of fogging and these coins had certainly not been dipped post-mint! So fogging on modern dollars is not just due to dipping, a concern I have harbored as about 5% of my high-grade holdered Ikes, SBAs and SACs have recently shown increasing fog (*&^$#$%^^&*^&!!!)
As to the bags potential subs and keepers, they will all receive a gentle MS70 treatment with thorough rinsing and careful drying to remove the ugly fog they all have to some extent. (I am already ducking....)
Having said that, I would never, ever, dip or clean an older coin unless it was unacceptably ugly for any numismatic purpose AND it gave evidence of underlying health such that "conservation" would substantially enhance its appearance.
I SUPPORT ORIGINAL SURFACE ATTRIBUTION but suspect it would be applicable only to older coins where a natural surface would be pretty obvious. It does seem such an attribution would be within the jugement capabilities of TPGs and it certainly would be valuable to newbies, sight-unseen buyers, and many of us venturing into classic series about which we were not expert. Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>...I believe that TPGs have done more to ruin the hobby than dipped or ATed coins ever will. >>
Care to explain why? You may have a point, but I don't think you've made it.
If TPGs were not in the hobby, and I'm not talking about the fishwives of numismatics, I'm talking PCGS, I would not be in the hobby. We may be at polar opposites on this issue. Just wondering why you feel as you do.
For me, I can't afford to purchase desirable coins for a "hobby." I am in the investment camp. I think many are in denial about that, or why else would someone pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a coin that is worth one cent, or ten cents, or a quarter, and since I'm going to make an investment into something, I like the fact that someone with special expertise is willing to professionally grade and insure the coin, and protect the coin through encapsulation. How that is bad I don't know.
<< <i>What percentage of the coins considered 'original surfaces' have been dipped or otherwise played with in the past? I suspect it is QUITE large. >>
I'm with you on this. I can't believe that there are so many bright white 100+ year old coins. I suspect most, if not all, of these white coins have been dipped - or "conserved" if you're dealing with big money coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>What percentage of the coins considered 'original surfaces' have been dipped or otherwise played with in the past? I suspect it is QUITE large. >>
I'm with you on this. I can't believe that there are so many bright white 100+ year old coins. I suspect most, if not all, of these white coins have been dipped - or "conserved" if you're dealing with big money coins.
A case study could be done on Redfield dollars. I believed that they were all original surface coins. Then someone posted a story about some of them being dipped. Someone else pointed out that there all Redfield toners are target toned. This is unusual considering that they were thrown into a basement in their mint bags or rolls. Right now, I'd say some of them have been dipped, but most of those have retoned so they look original.
As for it ruining the hobby, no way. It is self policing. his kind of stuff has been around as long as there has been a hobby. As more and more AT coins come out, the price will go down, same for blast white stripped and dipped. There seems to be quite a few people chasing toners with stupid money. Some of these people know what they are doing, and some are newbies that don't know. Unfortunately, a lot of the "bad" coins end up with newbies who don't know any better. These poor folks may be like the shop-at-home customers when they go to sell. It is the way of the world, and the market will regulate itself. Some coins will stay original, but each year, that number shrinks a little.
It goes in cycles. Right now stripped and dipped, and AT can often go for more money than the original coins untreated. As long as this is true, the coin doctors will continue to do a brisk-brisk business. It is just business--no need to get bent out of shape over it.
1. Collectors create the market for such coins
2. TPG's put them in plastic
3. Dealers/Doctors create them
One cannot exist without the other.
I have no illusion this will ever happen - the masses want a single number, they get a single number.