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COIN POSSE STIKES AGAIN
earlygoldnut
Posts: 206 ✭
January 9, 2006
Numismatic Consumer Alliance Inc. (NCA) is pleased to announce on December 30th of 2005 it was able to secure a refund of $11,354.00 on behalf of a New York City coin investor. The investor purchased seven (7) 2004 half-ounce bullion gold eagles graded ms-70 for $1622 per coin. All seven bullion coins were graded by a prominentthird party grading service. Kevin Lipton, a prominent Bevery Hills coin dealer and one of NCA's founding members interceded on behalf of the client. Mr Lipton's efforts resulted in a full refund in less than a twenty four hour period.
NCA is a not for profit corporation,incorporated under the laws of the State of New Jersey.NCA was granted tax-exempt status by action of the Internal Revenue Services under IRC Sec.501(C) (6).
For more information on NCA please visit our web site at www.stopcoinfraud.org
Numismatic Consumer Alliance Inc. (NCA) is pleased to announce on December 30th of 2005 it was able to secure a refund of $11,354.00 on behalf of a New York City coin investor. The investor purchased seven (7) 2004 half-ounce bullion gold eagles graded ms-70 for $1622 per coin. All seven bullion coins were graded by a prominentthird party grading service. Kevin Lipton, a prominent Bevery Hills coin dealer and one of NCA's founding members interceded on behalf of the client. Mr Lipton's efforts resulted in a full refund in less than a twenty four hour period.
NCA is a not for profit corporation,incorporated under the laws of the State of New Jersey.NCA was granted tax-exempt status by action of the Internal Revenue Services under IRC Sec.501(C) (6).
For more information on NCA please visit our web site at www.stopcoinfraud.org
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<< <i>January 9, 2006
Numismatic Consumer Alliance Inc. (NCA) is pleased to announce on December 30th of 2005 it was able to secure a refund of $11,354.00 on behalf of a New York City coin investor. The investor purchased seven (7) 2004 half-ounce bullion gold eagles graded ms-70 for $1622 per coin. All seven bullion coins were graded by a prominentthird party grading service. Kevin Lipton, a prominent Bevery Hills coin dealer and one of NCA's founding members interceded on behalf of the client. Mr Lipton's efforts resulted in a full refund in less than a twenty four hour period.
NCA is a not for profit corporation,incorporated under the laws of the State of New Jersey.NCA was granted tax-exempt status by action of the Internal Revenue Services under IRC Sec.501(C) (6).
For more information on NCA please visit our web site at www.stopcoinfraud.org >>
What's the fraud, based exactly on the above writing?
Mojo
-Jim Morrison-
Mr. Mojorizn
my blog:www.numistories.com
Wondercoin.
I though price FIXING was the crime.
Should the buyer take his refund and buy 1968-S pennies in PCGS68 Red holders for $4000 each?
These stories are nice, but don't strike at the root of the problem.
Tom
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Yep-----We need to hear the rest of the story.
<< <i>Gosh, I thought in America, sellers could ask whatever price they wanted to. I though price FIXING was the crime. Should the buyer take his refund and buy 1968-S pennies in PCGS68 Red holders for $4000 each? >>
Unless prices are set for some good reason by a central authority (government or otherwise) you are free to ask whatever price you see fit to ask. That is one of the reasons why its called a "free market".
The issue is what was said by the seller to the buyer to entice him to purchase at such a ridiculous price. The seller probably could not afford the risk of being dragged out into the open for having taken advantage of an "investor" that obviously did not know what he was "investing" in.
The cause for legal action would probably have been based on "false representation". The same sort of thing that could happen to a corporation (such as Enron or others) that publishes or has published documents for potential investors in which claims are made that turn out not to be true
An example of a false claim in a prospectus I saw some years ago said "we will double our sales in 6 months". The company went under in less time than that.
Collecting since the 1980's
Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes
- Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set
- Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set
Morgan Dollars Proof
- Basic Set - Varieties
Peace Circ.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Freak
And if it's unethical, why not just go after the TPGs?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I do not think they would get a victory to crow about in under
24 hours.
I wish to know what TPG it was.
Every little success is appreciated.
I don't see it as "a bad thing". In this case, a buyer decided he paid "too much". NCA agreed and helped him get his money back. I have no problem with this because the coin was a widget.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>My guess is, the MS70 grade was crap! They were probably lucky to pull '65 at a reputable TPG.
Mojo >>
Since the seller was getting $1,622.00 per half ounce coin, he probably had no problem delivering legitimate MS-70 coins.
TD
I wonder how much it would cost a normal joe, to get four 2004
whatever they were bullion coins into MS70 slabs from PCGS.
It is so easy, heck, I can do it right? Add up all my time grading
100s of coins personally, add up all the insurnace/shipping/handling,
and any other misc things it might be closer to the truth than we
think? You have to buy dozens of coins, maybe 100s in bulk? just
to get those near perfect 4?
I have no idea. but just a thought.
edited: make it seven perfect MS70 gems.
i would love to have you as a customer.....i could tell you anything to get you to buy and admitedly you want no recourse for the bu$$ fooking i could give you.........mmmmm i wish i had a few more thousand just like you
monsterman
ps..im not in the coin biz....but wait until i get a hold of your car....my employees can sell you everything you dont need
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Which is worse: An MS70 modern half eagle at $1600 or a Godzilla-toned Iowa for $10,000? Just wonderin'...
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
There is a herd mentality among some of the more prominent dealers, they are getting sick and tired of people being talked into buying coins at 300% + markup as an investment by unscrupulous telemarketers.In case you missed the first press release the first time NCA intervened on behalf of retail buyer the end result was a refund to that customer in excess of $300,000 and now another refund of $11,000 plus. As word gets out that there is an organization willing to use their expertise to help people who have been defrauded the more press releases you are going to see and somewhere down the line hopefully you won't see any at all.
Where on earth do you see the irony of a number of dealers each kicking in thousands of dollars to help those who don't know any better. Tell me, what have you done to help the industry?
"Oh, and unless you're really starved for attention, acts like this purportedly altruistic deed usually go unreported, and serve largely to satisfy the do-gooder's self esteem, not his mass appeal. If you're going to mess up a competitor's deal and call it a public service, whatever, but keep it to yourself."
NCA was formed to help those who have been defrauded, I can assure you that anyone involved does not need the attention as they are already among the most respected dealers in the industry.
Now all of this may not mean much to you and that is fine but I am sure the two individuals getting the refunds sure feel much differently.
I guess the answer is both or neither. Depends on whether or not the buyer was active and knew coins and willingly overpaid to fill a hole or if he had no idea what he was doing and someone talked him into it. There is a difference between informed stupidity vs zero coin knowledge.
Depends on who the buyer is.
<< <i>>>>>good job. even if there was nothing strictly illegal going on, it was a nice thing to do.
i would love to have you as a customer.....i could tell you anything to get you to buy and admitedly you want no recourse for the bu$$ fooking i could give you.........mmmmm i wish i had a few more thousand just like you
monsterman
ps..im not in the coin biz....but wait until i get a hold of your car....my employees can sell you everything you dont need >>
Since you quoted me for this reply, I'm trying to figure out just what you are saying? Are you referring to me?
<< <i>Where do they draw the line? If it is at double retail, then the NCA should go after Coin Vault, SAH coins, and all this "First Strike" nonsense. >>
That is an excellent question. With time I believe the line may be established, however I expect it to be very "Grey". But in the meantime there is enough outrageous activity occuring to keep them busy.
you said >>>>good job. even if there was nothing strictly illegal going on, it was a nice thing to do.
then you said
>>>>Since you quoted me for this reply, I'm trying to figure out just what you are saying? Are you referring to me?
what im saying is it is very obviuos to me that someone was cajoled,convinced,pressured,luered,tricked,duped,taken advantage of or what ever you want to call it and it is not in the best interest of numismatics to let such actions exist as it gives the hobby a black eye
it is crystal clear to me that some boiler room unfairly took advantage of someone....and yes it can be very much ILLEGAL contrary to your statement...why else would he gladly refund the money...last year an old lady got taken for 400,000 for 125,000 worth of coins.......a little threat to the da and he gladly gave up his 275,000 profit.....if it wasnt illegal i doubt he would of given up that much cash
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
The threat of litigation may be enough to convince a dealer to offer a refund.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Plus, back to my original point, somebody else made the sale to rescued buyer, maybe a NCA member, after the deal was queered by the heroic Beverly Hills dealer, who bravely picked up the phone, callled the buyer, and said, "hey, doofus, you got ripped off!" Cue dramatic theme music. How do I know all this? The same way others of you know 1. the coins were ms65, not 70; 2. the tpg's were pcgs or ngc; 3. "I charge less, ergo, the price was too high, ergo it was fraud."
What a screwy business. And funny. Sorry, the movie's gonna have to be a comedy
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Before you fly off the hook again, I suggest you reread my statement for meaning this time, as it seems that the subtleties of it has gone right by you. The sad part about all of this is that i agree with most of what you are saying (well except for the unjustified ranting about me in the first thread).
The fraud came into play, at least in part, because they were represented as an "investment".
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since 8/1/6
se...es verdad..pero...the size of the lost earnings of the dealer points toward it was probably illegal.....if i worked on your palnt and the bill was an honest 400,000 and i made 275,000 id fight hard to keep it....
by plant i mean it wont run unless i fix it and seeing as how it makes 1 million a day if i do well justafies my 275,000 profit
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
"You know none of the facts to support the charge of fraud, and yet that's good enough for you!"
No offense, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. WERE YOU there? Do you have intimate knowledge that it wasn't fraud? Please enlighten us by providing all of the details.You sound awfully bitter that a guy that got screwed came out ok-You have no basis for any of your allegations or inuendo. Makes for a post I guess but not much else. Do you think that the dealer that gave the refund thought he was right? He obviously didn't , just like the dealer that gave the refund for the $300,000+, he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar otherwise he wouldn't have paid the customer.
<< <i>January 9, 2006
Numismatic Consumer Alliance Inc. (NCA) is pleased to announce on December 30th of 2005 it was able to secure a refund of $11,354.00 on behalf of a New York City coin investor. The investor purchased seven (7) 2004 half-ounce bullion gold eagles graded ms-70 for $1622 per coin. All seven bullion coins were graded by a prominentthird party grading service. Kevin Lipton, a prominent Bevery Hills coin dealer and one of NCA's founding members interceded on behalf of the client. Mr Lipton's efforts resulted in a full refund in less than a twenty four hour period. >>
if that coin just had a little sticker stuck to it, this could of all been avoided.
K S
K S