Quasi-hypothetical: How "private" are the terms of private treaty?
RYK
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If a coin trades hand by private treaty, how private is the selling price? Is the seller under any obligation to keep the terms private? Can anyone just email the seller and expect to be given the selling price?
The reason I ask is that I recently purchased a special coin via private treaty (posted here over the weekend), and a virtual stranger emailed the seller and asked what was the selling price. The seller, who is a friend, forwarded the email to me, in the event that I would want to share the information with the stranger. I was, at first, mortified that someone (the stranger) could be so uncouth. After further thought, perhaps I am out of line, and the request for information by the stranger is quite reasonable. Someone please give me a reality check.
The reason I ask is that I recently purchased a special coin via private treaty (posted here over the weekend), and a virtual stranger emailed the seller and asked what was the selling price. The seller, who is a friend, forwarded the email to me, in the event that I would want to share the information with the stranger. I was, at first, mortified that someone (the stranger) could be so uncouth. After further thought, perhaps I am out of line, and the request for information by the stranger is quite reasonable. Someone please give me a reality check.
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The cynic in me also thinks that coins are sold by private treaty to keep the prices out of the Greysheet, and to give an advantage in the price manipulation that goes hand in hand with well managed promotions.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>.. but I think it wasn't correct to contact the dealer and ask what the price was >>
As specifically relayed in the situation presented, I agree. However, I do think it would be ok for a third party to contact the dealer and ask something to the effect of: "If you and the buyer are both ok disclosing the information, I'm curious to know what the coin sold for."
That way, the seller is on notice that the inquirer is not asking him to betray a confidence and that the buyer's ok to release the information, is being acknowledged/required.
But hey, why stop at just the price? How about details of how the payment was made? Any credit issues? Was the dealer asked to hold the check for 7 days? Did the buyer haggle? How many counter-offers were made? Etc., etc.
I am in the mortified camp.
a public auction.
If I wanted the terms to be kept a secret, I'd expect to have to negotiate that as part of the deal. If I don't do that, then I wouldn't expect my purchase price to be off limits or kept a secret. (Of course, I think as a buyer, my identity should remain anonymous, as that's a legitimate security concern.)
<< <i>Is the seller under any obligation to keep the terms private? >>
Absolutely.
<< <i>and a virtual stranger emailed the seller and asked what was the selling price. >>
That's weird. If I were interested in knowing the selling price, I would ask the buyer not the dealer.
Russ, NCNE
For example, if Mrs. Longacre called Pinnacle and asked why I am sending checks to this guy, Douglas Winter, I would expect that his reply would be, "what checks?".
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Since I will likely never be in a position to acquire a coin by 'private treaty', please expand on what this says, exactly.
I presume it has confidentiality clauses about who the buyer is (you) & the price paid.
Since your question is 'How "private" are the terms of (a) private treaty', I would say as private as spelled out in the treaty!
If the selling price was to remain a secret, then the seller (your friend), should have sent back a nice email saying that, per the private treaty, he would be unable to give that information. PERIOD. It is up to you to decide if, or when, that information would be made public.
Don't blame some collector from contacting the seller, the transaction was obviously made public, maybe he was just curious what the coin sold for. Maybe he's thinking of buying a similar coin.
From my limited time collecting, if any information is to come out, usually sales price becomes public knowledge, who bought the coin is usually what stays a secret.
In this case it seems the buyer became public knowledge, selling price was not.
JMO
Excellent questions!
The coin had been offered on the seller's retail website with POR. When I first saw it, I assumed that I could not afford it. (POR="ryk cannot afford") It turns out, when I inquired I could indeed afford it. I have a special relationship with the seller (Gold Rush Gallery), and the terms of the transaction are similarly special (in ways that I do not care to divulge). A forum member, who fancies himself as a dealer, sent an email to the Gold Rush Gallery and without any introduction asked how much the coin sold for.
Frankly, it could be to the detriment of myself or the seller (GRG) if the actual selling price and terms were public information. A couple friends did ask me privately what the price of the coin was, and I told them.
<< <i>Frankly, it could be to the detriment of myself or the seller (GRG) if the actual selling price and terms were public information. A couple friends did ask me privately what the price of the coin was, and I told them. >>
I can see that. Still, to be safe, if this is a significant concern I'd probably make sure the seller would keep the details confidential before closing the deal -- getting an explicit confidentiality agreement, not relying on an implied one which might mean different things to different people.
I know what the coin sold for. That information will cost you the same price as what RYK paid for the coin. If you want to know that bad, let me know...
P.S. Robert, I'll split the proceeds with you.
I know who asked. Three-way split?
Russ, NCNE
If this type of information is shared by the dealer with a 3rd party, then it would be more of a "public treaty".
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If I read between the lines a bit.......
"I have a special relationship with the seller (Gold Rush Gallery), and the terms of the transaction are similarly special (in ways that I do not care to divulge)."
.....this was a special RYK deal, one that GRG would rather keep to itself & you because they would not want other buyers asking to do the same. If that is true, good for you. You obviously mean alot to GRG.
"A forum member, who fancies himself as a dealer, sent an email to the Gold Rush Gallery and without any introduction asked how much the coin sold for. "
.....OK, so not a collector!
The right thing to do, IMO, since this was a member, would be to PM YOU with a request for the price, giving the reason why the information is requested. Maybe it was a valid one & let you decide.
Running around you when they knew you bought the coin doesn't sit too well with me.
To answer another of your questions....
Can anyone just email the seller...YES and expect to be given the selling price? NO, but probably hope to get the selling price.
<< <i>Barry,
I know who asked. Three-way split?
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ,
I know, too. Since Robert didn't disclose it, I didn't think I should. Sorry, you're still out of the loop...
<< <i>Sorry, you're still out of the loop.. >>
Well, that sucks.
Russ, NCNE
Then went to the thread where RYK talked about his buy.
Folks, this isn't even a mole hill.
Nowhere in RYK's original thread did it say this was a 'private treaty' buy. Did RYK need to state this, no. But by not stating it the member had no idea that contacting the seller would cause such a fuss, and it looks by all accounts that the website was not updated to say 'SOLD', and the coin was at a show either at the same time, or after the sale.
Why didn't the member contact RYK directly? Well, according to the member, he has been blocked from sending PM's to RYK.
The seller, who is a friend, forwarded the email to me, in the event that I would want to share the information with the stranger. I was, at first, mortified that someone (the stranger) could be so uncouth.
If the information is correct, & the complete email was passed from the seller to RYK, and I could be wrong, but I stongly think RYK would know who this person was.
He was just curious, as we probably all are now, and I see no harm being done.
So, my question to you Robert is, why you would feel a person asking what the selling price on a coin to be uncouth when the person asking doesn't know it's a private treaty?......Just a reality check.
<< <i>If the information is correct, & the complete email was passed from the seller to RYK, and I could be wrong, but I stongly think RYK would know who this person was. >>
He would know that only after the eMail was forwarded. He may not have had any idea upon initial contact from the dealer.
Russ, NCNE
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>The coin had been offered on the seller's retail website with POR. When I first saw it, I assumed that I could not afford it. (POR="ryk cannot afford") It turns out, when I inquired I could indeed afford it. >>
Since it was advertised publically perhaps the other party also saw the POR and was considering it. Once it was removed from the website, he wanted to know what the selling price was for his own information - not to spy on RYK
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But by the time this thread was started he was.
Remember , the reason for the question was that a 'virtual stranger' emailed the seller (I guess a virtual stranger to the seller) asking for the selling price.
But the stranger did not know this was a private treaty sale, the web site still said P.O.R..
I still think that the answer to the 'root' question (how 'private' are the terms of a private treaty) is as private as the buyer & seller agree to.
Will this stop people from asking? Of course not.
Should this bother the seller or buyer? Not in my opinion
And, again JMO, if RYK told some friends that asked, that is breaking the private treaty obligation he had with GRG, unless it was spelled out telling friends was acceptable.
Purely hypothetical now. If Ajia bought a coin from Harry Labstain, a dealer I have never contacted before, and I wanted to know how much he paid for it, it is ethical/appropriate/reasonable for me to contact Mr. Labstain and ask him how much Ajia paid for it? Similarly, what would the ethical/appropriate/reasonable response of Mr. Labstain be?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I once emailed a dealer not known to me to inquire about the price of a coin he sold several years back. I didn't even hesitate to ask - nor did I find it offensive when he didn't answer my question with a specific number.
No, but it's the smart thing to do if the dealer values his relationship with the buyer.
That said, most dealers will share this type of information with each other and with their clients. Not out of generosity or duty, but out of self-interest. When you share info with other people, they may do the same with you, and they'll certainly spend more time talking to you. That can lead to more business. At the very least, the blabbing dealer can feel like he's more important and smarter than he really is, which is certainly of some value.
The situation in this thread is different because a stranger asks for the information. Therefore, it's less likely that there will be a benefit to the dealer in sharing the information. So in this scenario, most dealers would choose to protect the buyer.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> At the very least, the blabbing dealer can feel like he's more important and smarter than he really is, which is certainly of some value. >>
I will keep this in mind and apply it in my own walk of life.
CG
Being that I was already on GRG's site I became curious as to the purchase price of the coin.The coin was at this time still listed on their website with a big old P.O.R. next to it. I sent an e-mail right then.The reply I got back was that they didn't want to reveal the sale price in order to protect the privacy of the buyer.End of story...
The blocked PM was from prior nonsense, and I never got around to unblocking it. Were it unblocked, I would not likely divulge the price of the coin to you, as it is a private matter for me and the seller. If unblocking you from PMing me only results in my getting PMs asking how much I paid for things, I probably should leave things as they are. Two coin friends asked me the price and terms, and I did reveal the price and terms to them. I trust their sense of discretion. Because of the POR, I am sure that other people were curious about the pricing, but none had the chutzpah to email Al.
Based on your previous misadventures here, while I have nothing against you personally, I have a healthy skepticism about your activities. As a fifteen year old, you are in many ways quite mature (most here believe you to be much older) and in other ways still a fifteen year old. Your posting of an email exchange between yourself and my friend Al Adams (in particular, his response to you), though harmless, shows lack of discretion (in the same way that posting PMs here does). I did not (do not) think that you have dishonorable motives.
All that said, I posted here primarily to get an idea of what activities were considered fair and which were out-of-bounds. It appears that it is commonplace enough to inquire to dealers how much others paid for their coins, and many do not consider it to be a problem. Many dealers would not divulge a selling price to a stranger, which I believe is appropriate. It does not serve the dealer, nor does it serve the customer.
Why don't you go ahead and tell the rest of us the sale price,or is it really that important?
There are a few reasons that I can think of right of the bat:
1. What if another customer was quoted a higher price? It might put the GRG in an awkward position.
2. What if someone contacts me and tells me that they were offered the coin at a better price? It might put the GRG in an awkward position.
3. A pedigreed coin of a rare variety with cool history is difficult to value. Perhaps down the road, I (or the GRG) will want to sell the coin. Once it is common knowledge what I paid for the coin, it will be difficult for me (or the GRG) to get more for it.
<< <i>
Since it was advertised publically perhaps the other party also saw the POR and was considering it. Once it was removed from the website, he wanted to know what the selling price was for his own information - not to spy on RYK >>
Or, on the other hand, maybe he was just
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Hopefully all is well......it is Christmas time you know.
I'm just greatful that RYK's recently posted Ike Dollar was acquired through a public auction. I would never have been able to sleep another wink without knowing what that rarity sold for.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson