<< <i>IMHO..... I would never pay $1,000 for a coin in a slab that if I broke out would only get $5 for.... >>
I think the point being made here is that the coin we're discussing is an investment in plastic & pops. If it weren't for a TPG and their pop report that displayed "1" in the "Total" column....... it would be a 5¢ coin. Crack it out and that's what it is. >>
It's odd that some bashers never respond to logical argument and fact and simply make the same statements again and again.
Perhaps someone needs to put some thought into "Why Not Collect Old Coins?". >>
Ok, you want logic? Maybe this particular Jefferson doesn't have full windows on Monticello. It has full steps but others of the same date without full steps have better struck windows. This logic has been applied before- most recently (to my recollection on these forums) to the FH on Standing Lib Quarters. Full heads exist with poorly struck shields that are more of a focal point than the tiny minute hair splitting details on the head. The FH designation that is viewed through a plastic window can bring an exceptional premium in many cases. In my opinion a coin doesn't have to have FS FH FB FBL to be a premium coin or even a coin that's just plain better than one that does get such designation. Who started this bologna anyway?? I'll bet some were started by the same people that created the pops and registry sets.
This is the same situation. Cladking, you think every time someone says something you don't like about a modern coin that it's "bashing". I'm talking about this specific coin and not modern bashing. (Even though it's fun to break chops on occasion ). I have plenty of moderns in my collection that I enjoy greatly.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<Only the FS designation makes a difference. But why steps and not windows? What about those windows on Monticello? Why don't they count?>
Of course the windows count. But they are almost always well struck if the steps are fully struck.
The biggest example of what you are saying applies to full head SLQs. The head may be full but the center of the coin, the shield, may not have full rivets. I really like just missed SLQs with full rivets. Most FH SLQs don't have all full rivets. And they are the central detail of the coin. The steps on Monticello are the center of the coin and nickel is a hard metal that requires strong pressure for a full strike...
As for the 61-d in ms65, not FS, the pops don't matter since they aren't worth grading.
Actually, the 61(d) nickel in true MS66 or better grade (even without steps) is certainly worth grading. It would command several++ hundred dollars per coin I suspect. Not bad for a $16 grading fee? But in any event, I made the comment that a true gem MS65 1961(d) FS Jefferson is rarer than a gem 1926(s) Buffalo Nickel and stand by it. I agree with you that an non-FS 1961(d) example is not a scarce coin at all. No different than a discussion on 1945(p) Mercs in true gem to ultra gem grade as well. Now, if one wants to assert that a 1961(d) nickel in MS65FS is a crappy a coin as, say, a 1945(p) Merc Dime in MS65FB - I can at least understand where that person is coming from. Fair enough?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
While many of the posts to this thread are interesting, I believe that just about every one of them has been way off topic
We're talking (or should be) about an ad. Bowers, no doubt, had reasons other than merely advertising one coin, for doing what they did.
Perhaps they were aiming at a particular type of (buyer and/or seller) collector. Maybe they were targeting a certain segment of the market. The coin, itself, is probably almost irrelevant. And, before anyone mentions modern coins, classic coins, designations, etc, again, I would have said the same, regardless of what one coin had been advertised.
I think the point being made here is that the coin we're discussing is an investment in plastic & pops. If it weren't for a TPG and their pop report that displayed "1" in the "Total" column....... it would be a 5¢ coin. Crack it out and that's what it is. >>
I stand corrected.
Ronyahski pointed this out and I did suspect he was right.
In my defence it's difficult to understand how this could be a five cent coin out of the holder with FS. Perhaps your statement was mere hyperbole and I should have seen that. I apologize for the tone of my previous post.
<< <i>Most of the thoughts here miss the point IMHO. Its not a matter of plastic or registries its a matter of steps. Slabbed or raw its a matter of steps. The step junkies have to have 'em.
<< <i>Without question (IMHO), a true gem FS 1961(d) Jefferson nickel is rarer than an MS65 1926(s) Buffalo nickel (even if it is 1/3 the price even today >>
Sort of comparing apples and oranges aren't you? The 26-s is very scarce in mint state. A pop 10 coin in 65 at pcgs with 5 at ngc plus one higher. And only a pop 111 in 64 at pcgs and 78 at ngc.
As for the 61-d in ms65, not FS, the pops don't matter since they aren't worth grading. Heritage's archive shows that an ngc in 67 not FS sold for less than $600 last summer.
Only the FS designation makes a difference. But why steps and not windows? What about those windows on Monticello? Why don't they count?
Sort of makes one have to rethink whether it make sense to base your collection on a miniscule design detail strike designation that does not assure one of a coin that has good eye appeal or even a good strike overall, and that often cannot be ascertained with certainty under a 10X loupe. And of course the same can be said of the FB Merc the FH Standing Lib and the FBL Frankie.
CG >>
Is anyone rethinking whether it makes sense to base your collection on a miniscule hairline or hit that often cannot be ascertained with certainty under a 10X loupe? If you want to carry this reasoning to the nth degree, both the 60-D and the 26-S are worth exactly 5 cents.
Many of us are trying to define the point - it's the plastic, it's the registry, it's the pop 1, it's modern vs. classic, it's an ad, it's the steps... Fact of the matter is that these are all causes of the effect that has our interest - the PRICE of the coin. All of the causes play a factor, so you are all correct, and all of you can congratulate everyone else for being so astute.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
<< <i>Imagine showing this amazing treasure to a non- collector:
"behold, my nickel!" >>
Also, imagine telling him you paid $50,000 for it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Ok, you want logic? Maybe this particular Jefferson doesn't have full windows on Monticello. It has full steps but others of the same date without full steps have better struck >>
Excellent post! It is kind of odd how one area of strike sharpness brings such a premium even though a coin with a better strike but lacking sharpness in this area does not.
<< <i>Imagine showing this amazing treasure to a non- collector:
"behold, my nickel!" >>
It's virtually impossible to impress some non-collectors. But I've found that some will respond to very high grade examples of current coins. In fact "large size", "gold" or "wear" are the only other three attributes in the running which will often impress complete outsiders. So you may as well spend your old coins or admit that a coin's ability to impress non-collectors is one more thing that has no effect on coin prices.
the intriguing thing about this constant and never-changing dialogue regarding the particular and fussy collecting habits of those of us choosing to collect Modern issues is simple. a collector who seeks the best, this 1960-D being his choice, is maligned. a collector choosing a worn to VF Bust Half-Dollar because it has a certain rare die pairing is heralded as a champion. the intrigue for me is that one sees fit to judge the other as foolish while one chooses to keep his opinion to himself, understanding that "to each his own" may apply to our hobby right to the core. it's what makes it such a great hobby to be involved in.
POSTED ON ANOTHER 60(d) THREAD BUT APPROPRIATE HERE AS WELL.
My two cents: One thing that collectors and dealers need to appreciate is that the "FS" designation has always meant different things to different folks. For example, up until a couple years ago, NGC believed "FS" meant all 6 steps. PCGS was always fine with just 5 steps, but from a study of their graded coins throughout time, it appears to me that what "5 steps" has meant may have depended upon the treatment the 6 step actually receives or portions of the sixth step (or even other factors). Then, there is the issue of how to handle a coin with 5 complete steps with a small contact mark through them, but has portions of the 6th step present. And, of course the early societies of Jeff collectors from the 1960's and 1970's had their own view on the definition of FS often times by a study of "quadrants" from all of the 6 steps.
In the end, the study of Jeff nickels is quite complex (perhaps the most complex series of coins from 1938 to present). There are coins in holders I have seen that clearly do not deserve to be called "FS" using one or more of the various techniques/standards used to determine FS. Indeed, graders at the various services have (IMHO) over time slabbed "FS" coins that are not deserving of the "FS" designation and, on the flip side, there are many coins not labeled "FS" that are deserving of the designation applying one or more of the accepted standards.
It will be interesting to see whether, over the next decade or so, this series begins to get graded in a more uniform fashion between the top grading companies (and even within each grading company iteself). In the meantime, all I can say is that TRUE FS specimens of many of the coins in this series are quite elusive and highly collectible. There is little difference from the way I see it between a true 1961(d) gem FS nickel and a 1945(p) true gem+ FB Merc.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
no pictures from me and i'm not offended despite your poorly disguised knee jerk response at being cynical(my choice word for the day!!).
i'm more amazed at the fact that so many members choose to bark and growl at others who don't collect in the right fashion. i can't remember if it's Ford or Eliasberg who used to attend auctions all over the country/world searching for the coins he thought would suit his collection, standing out front with his paddle in the air for all to see. what an odd bird he must have looked like to so many who are now sleeping soundly in their graves. yet, his collection attests to the fact that he had a keen eye for quality and an appreciation for rarity, while retaining a respect for other collectors and their endeavors and clearly a love of the hobby, two things which can be in short supply here so often.
sometimes i'm surprised by what other collectors collect. this past weekend i found out that MadMarty had, in the past, assembled and sold collections of Proof Morgan Dollars and high grade MS Lincoln Cents. how many knew that??? not many, i imagine, and i'd almost bet that Mr. Baley didn't, wrongly assuming that His MadNess only knew about AU58's and ModernCrap™ among other things. perhaps the wisest thing to do here is to keep quiet about what we each collect for fear of being labeled as a nutcase for collecting in a certain area. that way, we can go to the grave with our accumulated knowledge and watch the hobby melt away while those collectors who have chosen to collect the right things can hold a meeting at the annual ANA convention in 2025, all 32 of them, huddled secretly away in a room on the 4th floor of the convention center as they discuss the wisdom of their choice and the emptiness of the room.
no pictures from me and i'm not offended despite your poorly disguised knee jerk response at being cynical(my choice word for the day!!).
i'm more amazed at the fact that so many members choose to bark and growl at others who don't collect in the right fashion. i can't remember if it's Ford or Eliasberg who used to attend auctions all over the country/world searching for the coins he thought would suit his collection, standing out front with his paddle in the air for all to see. what an odd bird he must have looked like to so many who are now sleeping soundly in their graves. yet, his collection attests to the fact that he had a keen eye for quality and an appreciation for rarity, while retaining a respect for other collectors and their endeavors and clearly a love of the hobby, two things which can be in short supply here so often.
sometimes i'm surprised by what other collectors collect. this past weekend i found out that MadMarty had, in the past, assembled and sold collections of Proof Morgan Dollars and high grade MS Lincoln Cents. how many knew that??? not many, i imagine, and i'd almost bet that Mr. Baley didn't, wrongly assuming that His MadNess only knew about AU58's and ModernCrap™ among other things. perhaps the wisest thing to do here is to keep quiet about what we each collect for fear of being labeled as a nutcase for collecting in a certain area. that way, we can go to the grave with our accumulated knowledge and watch the hobby melt away while those collectors who have chosen to collect the right things can hold a meeting at the annual ANA convention in 2025, all 32 of them, huddled secretly away in a room on the 4th floor of the convention center as they discuss the wisdom of their choice and the emptiness of the room. >>
And I used to collect Jefferson Nickels and I can assure you that well struck coins were highly sought after and avidly sought waaaaay back in the 1970s. I remember scouring a small group of 1954 S/D nickels for one with a strong strike, but I honestly can't remember what my 1960-D looked like.
You don't suppose thats my former coin in the Coinworld ad, do you? That would be ironic.
Frankly, I care not the least how one spends their money or what one collects. But those who dislike strike designations based upon a minuscule detail simply do not accept the price disparity between an MS 65 with strike designation and a beautifully struck (and perhaps overall better struck), nearly immaculate, scintillating lustrous MS67 with a small merge of step or band or bell lines that requires 10X or better magnification to detect. Is the MS 65 FS really the "better" coin? Wondercoins’ post about the disparities in standards for the FS designation only adds to this point. I also recall a past thread about a FH Standing Lib quarter where there was disagreement about whether it was or was not FH--where some big dollars were in issue.
The down side of strike designations is that non-designated coin, even those with superior eye appeal, become orphans on the market.
And oh by the way, the window frame between the third and fourth pillars is not complete on Lucy’s coin.
Yes. It is true that the finest strikes don't always get the designations because the specific area isn't fully struck, but this doesn't change the fact that the coins with fully struck steps can be very rare or scarce. There are collectors who seek the highest grades or the finest strikes independently of whether they have a designation or not. In some cases coins will be available at give-away prices simply because it will involve an attribute which isn't espec- ially valued at the present time.
Secondly it was John J Pittman who was famous for his "statue of liberty" bidding style. Ir- onically it was also he that SanctionII was trying to remember yesterday as one of the very first collectors of clad coins. It is interesting to note that none of his modern coins were sold at the autions in '96/'97. No doubt, he advised his heirs to hold onto them for appreciation.
In my experience age doesn't impress outsiders unless you're talking ancients or pre-US coins. But all this truly is irrelevant since what impresses them matters only if they want to buy.
The '60-D nickel is incredibly common still. But, it was never common with full steps and then there has been a horrible attrition on them. Many bags and rolls of '60-D nickels and all other US regular issues were set aside until 1965. But in those days the thinking was that the hob- by would grow forever and that future collectors would desire BU coins. It never occurred to collectors of that era that they were setting aside quantities which would prove ample till the sun grew dim or that future collectors might desire well- made coins. Very few collectors made a real effort to seek the finest examples and even when they did the odds of finding a full step coin were heavily against them.
Some of the later dates are even much tougher. There aren't large numbers of some of these set aside so it can be difficult to even find coins to check. Most of these coins are so inexpen- sive that they often end up in circulation after they are checked.
<< <i>i found out that MadMarty had, in the past, assembled and sold collections of Proof Morgan Dollars and high grade MS Lincoln Cents. how many knew that??? >>
<< i found out that MadMarty had, in the past, assembled and sold collections of Proof Morgan Dollars and high grade MS Lincoln Cents. how many knew that??? >>
I did.
Russ, NCNE
Me too...
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I have plenty of respect for a collector searching long and hard and finding one of these modern rarities-- But the issue remains whether or not it should reasonably be worth $20K to $30K as some people are suggesting. At that supposed value, I'd bet over 95% of coin people would chose this coin near last if offered a free pick coins from a group of other denominations of equal value/rarity. The auction coin is rare OK, it's neat a specialist found it, but in my opinion just lacks special eye appeal or any inherent beauty outside the grade and steps designation.
<< <i>No doubt, he advised his heirs to hold onto them for appreciation >>
I understand they were fed into parking meters.
CG >>
There was some interest in them at the time. Of course in those days ('96/ '97) a parking meter would have offered about as much value as the market for dimes and quarters.
The best way to know whether or not this coin is REALLY worth what it will undoubtedly sell for is to have B&M crack it out and send it in for grading along with a bunch of other modern coins to see if it comes back at the same grade, with the FS designation.
If it does, the coin is truly rare and probably worth every penny someone pays for it.
However, I would lay 50 to 1 odds that if this nickel was submitted at the $18 service level with 19 other common nickels, it won't.
So there's food for thought....
BTW -- this holds true for most 45-P Mercury Dimes with FB.
<< <i>Imagine showing this amazing treasure to a non- collector:
"behold, my nickel!" >>
Also, imagine telling him you paid $50,000 for it. >>
I listen to your voice like it was music, [ y o u ' r e ] the song I want to know.
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ... and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
<< <i>The best way to know whether or not this coin is REALLY worth what it will undoubtedly sell for is to have B&M crack it out and send it in for grading along with a bunch of other modern coins to see if it comes back at the same grade, with the FS designation.
If it does, the coin is truly rare and probably worth every penny someone pays for it.
However, I would lay 50 to 1 odds that if this nickel was submitted at the $18 service level with 19 other common nickels, it won't.
So there's food for thought....
BTW -- this holds true for most 45-P Mercury Dimes with FB. >>
My understanding is that full steps is something that PCGS has been fairly consistent on. Yes, I know that many believe otherwise but for the main part a nickel either has the steps or it doesn't. There are not large numbers of liners or changing standards for this. I haven't seen this coin so woyuldn't know if it's a liner or not.
<< <i>The best way to know whether or not this coin is REALLY worth what it will undoubtedly sell for is to have B&M crack it out and send it in for grading along with a bunch of other modern coins to see if it comes back at the same grade, with the FS designation.
If it does, the coin is truly rare and probably worth every penny someone pays for it.
However, I would lay 50 to 1 odds that if this nickel was submitted at the $18 service level with 19 other common nickels, it won't.
So there's food for thought....
BTW -- this holds true for most 45-P Mercury Dimes with FB. >>
My understanding is that full steps is something that PCGS has been fairly consistent on. Yes, I know that many believe otherwise but for the main part a nickel either has the steps or it doesn't. There are not large numbers of liners or changing standards for this. I haven't seen this coin so wouldn't know if it's a liner or not.
<< <i>I have plenty of respect for a collector searching long and hard and finding one of these modern rarities-- But the issue remains whether or not it should reasonably be worth $20K to $30K as some people are suggesting. At that supposed value, I'd bet over 95% of coin people would chose this coin near last if offered a free pick coins from a group of other denominations of equal value/rarity. The auction coin is rare OK, it's neat a specialist found it, but in my opinion just lacks special eye appeal or any inherent beauty outside the grade and steps designation. >>
Here, I'll take your bet. I've put the following five coins on a table, all PCGS graded:
- 1960-D Jeffersom Nickel MS65FS - 1794 Flowing Hair Dollar VG8 - Toned Oregon Half Dollar MS68 - 1969-S Lincoln Cent Doubled Die Obverse MS65RD - 1878 Morgan Dollar VAM-44 MS64
Leaving aside things like resale or investment potential, I would argue that "95% of coin people" would rather spend their $25-30,000 on other coins than take any of those five coins. Why? Because all five coins appeal to a small, specialized group of high-end collectors, the appeal of which is lost on a vast majority of everyday collectors (okay, maybe the Flowing Hair Dollar is a bad example because of type collectors, but you get the point I'm trying to make). And yes, I used to collect full step Jeffersons, many of which I purchased raw from Sue & Rich Sisti through their Nickel Express auctions, at prices that probably seem ridiculous then and now to the averge collector.
Maybe one of the devil's advocates in this thread can explain to me why the premium for a rare modern full-step Jefferson is any less valid than the prices paid for monster toned coins, doubled dies, or VAMs.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>I have plenty of respect for a collector searching long and hard and finding one of these modern rarities-- But the issue remains whether or not it should reasonably be worth $20K to $30K as some people are suggesting. At that supposed value, I'd bet over 95% of coin people would chose this coin near last if offered a free pick coins from a group of other denominations of equal value/rarity. The auction coin is rare OK, it's neat a specialist found it, but in my opinion just lacks special eye appeal or any inherent beauty outside the grade and steps designation. >>
Here, I'll take your bet. I've put the following five coins on a table, all PCGS graded:
- 1960-D Jeffersom Nickel MS65FS - 1794 Flowing Hair Dollar VG8 - Toned Oregon Half Dollar MS68 - 1969-S Lincoln Cent Doubled Die Obverse MS65RD - 1878 Morgan Dollar VAM-44 MS64
Leaving aside things like resale or investment potential, I would argue that "95% of coin people" would rather spend their $25-30,000 on other coins than take any of those five coins. Why? Because all five coins appeal to a small, specialized group of high-end collectors, the appeal of which is lost on a vast majority of everyday collectors (okay, maybe the Flowing Hair Dollar is a bad example because of type collectors, but you get the point I'm trying to make). And yes, I used to collect full step Jeffersons, many of which I purchased raw from Sue & Rich Sisti through their Nickel Express auctions, at prices that probably seem ridiculous then and now to the averge collector.
Sean Reynolds >>
I'm not sure of the meaning of your question but will address the rest of the post.
It is true that 95% would take one of the others but the '60-D is the rarest of this bunch and with equal demand would command a far higher price than any of the others. The demand is not equal so it is a relative bargain.
<< <i> I'm not sure of the meaning of your question but will address the rest of the post. >>
The point I was trying to raise was this:
Q: "Why did this AU 1878 Morgan Dollar sell for over $10,000 when I can buy a generic UNC for under $100?" A: "Because it is a rare VAM-44" ... and this is perfectly acceptible.
Q: "Why is that MS61 1969-S Lincoln cent being auctioned for $34,000 when I can pull one that looks almost as nice from the 'leave a penny' jar at the 7-11?" A: "Because it is a rare Doubled Die Obverse." ... and this is perfectly acceptible
Q: "Why is that 1960-D nickel selling for five figures when I found four of them in my change jar at face value?" A: "Because it is a rare fully struck example with five full steps." ... and this is somehow a travesty?
I don't understand why the specialized markets for the first two coins are different than the one for the nickel. I'm hoping someone can enlighten me.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i> I'm not sure of the meaning of your question but will address the rest of the post. >>
The point I was trying to raise was this:
Q: "Why did this AU 1878 Morgan Dollar sell for over $10,000 when I can buy a generic UNC for under $100?" A: "Because it is a rare VAM-44" ... and this is perfectly acceptible.
Q: "Why is that MS61 1969-S Lincoln cent being auctioned for $34,000 when I can pull one that looks almost as nice from the 'leave a penny' jar at the 7-11?" A: "Because it is a rare Doubled Die Obverse." ... and this is perfectly acceptible
Q: "Why is that 1960-D nickel selling for five figures when I found four of them in my change jar at face value?" A: "Because it is a rare fully struck example with five full steps." ... and this is somehow a travesty?
I don't understand why the specialized markets for the first two coins are different than the one for the nickel. I'm hoping someone can enlighten me.
Sean Reynolds >>
Sean, here's my take at trying to help you understand.
The Morgan will be a VAM 150 times over, no matter how many times it's graded. The grade might change, but the fact that it's a VAM variety will not.
The Lincoln cent has a doubled die, and it can be graded 1,000 times by 20 different services, and the fact that it's a doubled die will never change.
The difference with this nickel is that whether or not it has FS is subjective. And unfortunately ALL of this coin's purported value derives just from that. If the coin would not receive an FS designation on a crackout/resubmittal, it would be worth about $15. If somehow the coin was nicked on the steps, it would immediately be worth about $15.
Conversely, if the VAM or the lincoln cent was nicked, sure it might grade lower but it's still a VAM and it's still a doubled die.
You might not agree, which is totally cool, but do you at least understand this perspective?
I like moderns, not so moderns and most definitely not moderns. Anyway the point is I am not coming at this from a point on how rare or how old the coin is. Someone nailed it earlier, most folks without a very good loupe and without someone having pointed out to them what a full step is (the industry can't even agree on this) wouldn't be able to know with certainty whether tons of them had full steps or not. If you want to pay big bucks for it go for it. That doesn't give you any more right to rag at those who thinks the whole concept of full step Jeffs is folly. In many minds it is, was and always will be.
Can you tell I don't collect jeffs (other than war nickels)
I personally feel most strike premiums are foolish ... classic or modern. I'd rather collect the 'just missed it' coins [which are often indistinguishable from the 'just made it' coins] at a fraction of the price.
But to each their own.... I'd probably pay a slight premium for a well struck 1877 trade dollar [which almost always comes flat in the stars].
<< <i>It is true that 95% would take one of the others but the '60-D is the rarest of this bunch >>
It's not rarer than the 1794 Dollar. You simply cannot make that comparison. How can I say this. The 60-D has a special designation...FS. If you want to be that specific about the technical aspects of a particular coin. Then you have to be that technical about the other coin for a true comparison. Is the 60-D as rare as say a 1794 Special Proof (SP). What are the odds of another 60-D with FS being found compared to the odds of finding another Special Proof (SP) 1794 Dollar?
What it always comes down to is absolute rarity vs condition(grade) rarity. This isn't even about condition rarity but designation (FS/Strike) rarity.
<< <i>Sean, here's my take at trying to help you understand.
The Morgan will be a VAM 150 times over, no matter how many times it's graded. The grade might change, but the fact that it's a VAM variety will not.
The Lincoln cent has a doubled die, and it can be graded 1,000 times by 20 different services, and the fact that it's a doubled die will never change.
The difference with this nickel is that whether or not it has FS is subjective. And unfortunately ALL of this coin's purported value derives just from that. If the coin would not receive an FS designation on a crackout/resubmittal, it would be worth about $15. If somehow the coin was nicked on the steps, it would immediately be worth about $15.
Conversely, if the VAM or the lincoln cent was nicked, sure it might grade lower but it's still a VAM and it's still a doubled die.
You might not agree, which is totally cool, but do you at least understand this perspective? >>
Totally get it: you're saying the VAM and the doubled die are OBJECTIVE while the full steps are SUBJECTIVE. Not everyone who looks at those steps will necessarily agree that they are full, but everyone who looks at a 1969-S DDO will agree that the die is doubled. I would argue that Full Steps aren't quite as subjective as you think, but I'll concede that point.
So does that make the agument that no one should pay a hefty premium based on their SUBJECTIVE opinion of a coin? That only a fool would pay extra for ultra-high grades or 'finest known' or superb toning or Deep Cameo or Full Bell Lines or Full Steps? Because not everyone is going to be able to agree all the time that your MS70 modern is not an MS69, or that your DCAM proof isn't really just a Cameo, or your Red Lincoln Cent isn't really Red-Brown, or your full-step nickel really has full steps?
None of these debates are about to get solved here, in the end it comes down to individual preferences. How many threads have we had in here debating why someone would pay moon money for an MS70 when to most collectors they are indistinguishable from a MS69? So I guess some folks view Full Step Jefersons the same way... I don't, but I suppose I can understand that point of view. But coin collectors make - and assign values based on - subjective opinions all the time, and what I can't understand is how some people can ridicule one subjective analysis of a coin or series while embracing another.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>IMHO..... I would never pay $1,000 for a coin in a slab that if I broke out would only get $5 for.... >>
I think the point being made here is that the coin we're discussing is an investment in plastic & pops. If it weren't for a TPG and their pop report that displayed "1" in the "Total" column....... it would be a 5¢ coin. Crack it out and that's what it is. >>
It's odd that some bashers never respond to logical argument and fact and simply make the same statements again and again.
Perhaps someone needs to put some thought into "Why Not Collect Old Coins?". >>
Ok, you want logic? Maybe this particular Jefferson doesn't have full windows on Monticello. It has full steps but others of the same date without full steps have better struck
windows. This logic has been applied before- most recently (to my recollection on these forums) to the FH on Standing Lib Quarters. Full heads exist with poorly struck shields
that are more of a focal point than the tiny minute hair splitting details on the head. The FH designation that is viewed through a plastic window can bring an exceptional premium
in many cases. In my opinion a coin doesn't have to have FS FH FB FBL to be a premium coin or even a coin that's just plain better than one that does get such designation.
Who started this bologna anyway?? I'll bet some were started by the same people that created the pops and registry sets.
This is the same situation. Cladking, you think every time someone says something you don't like about a modern coin that it's "bashing". I'm talking about this specific coin and
not modern bashing. (Even though it's fun to break chops on occasion
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Of course the windows count. But they are almost always well struck if the steps are fully struck.
The biggest example of what you are saying applies to full head SLQs. The head may be full but the center of the coin, the shield, may not have full rivets. I really like just missed SLQs with full rivets. Most FH SLQs don't have all full rivets. And they are the central detail of the coin. The steps on Monticello are the center of the coin and nickel is a hard metal that requires strong pressure for a full strike...
<< <i>(Even though it's fun to break chops on occasion ) >>
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>The steps on Monticello are the center of the coin and nickel is a hard metal that requires strong pressure for a full strike... >>
I see your point but....
I don't know about anyone else but I need a loupe to determine if they're full!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Actually, the 61(d) nickel in true MS66 or better grade (even without steps) is certainly worth grading. It would command several++ hundred dollars per coin I suspect. Not bad for a $16 grading fee? But in any event, I made the comment that a true gem MS65 1961(d) FS Jefferson is rarer than a gem 1926(s) Buffalo Nickel and stand by it. I agree with you that an non-FS 1961(d) example is not a scarce coin at all. No different than a discussion on 1945(p) Mercs in true gem to ultra gem grade as well. Now, if one wants to assert that a 1961(d) nickel in MS65FS is a crappy a coin as, say, a 1945(p) Merc Dime in MS65FB - I can at least understand where that person is coming from. Fair enough?
Wondercoin
We're talking (or should be) about an ad. Bowers, no doubt, had reasons other than merely advertising one coin, for doing what they did.
Perhaps they were aiming at a particular type of (buyer and/or seller) collector. Maybe they were targeting a certain segment of the market. The coin, itself, is probably almost irrelevant. And, before anyone mentions modern coins, classic coins, designations, etc, again, I would have said the same, regardless of what one coin had been advertised.
<< <i>While many of the posts to this thread are interesting, I believe that just about every one of them has been way off topic
We're talking (or should be) about an ad. Bowers, no doubt, had reasons other than merely advertising one coin, for doing what they did.
Perhaps they were aiming at a particular type of (buyer and/or seller) collector. Maybe they were targeting a certain segment of the market. >>
Or their negotiation with the consignor resulted in a commitment to advertise the collection in a full-page Coinworld ad.
<< <i>
I think the point being made here is that the coin we're discussing is an investment in plastic & pops. If it weren't for a TPG and their pop report that displayed "1" in the "Total" column....... it would be a 5¢ coin. Crack it out and that's what it is. >>
I stand corrected.
Ronyahski pointed this out and I did suspect he was right.
In my defence it's difficult to understand how this could be a five cent coin out of the holder with FS. Perhaps your statement was mere hyperbole and I should have seen that. I apologize for the tone of my previous post.
No apology necessary.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>Most of the thoughts here miss the point IMHO. Its not a matter of plastic or registries its a matter of steps. Slabbed or raw its a matter of steps. The step junkies have to have 'em.
<< <i>Without question (IMHO), a true gem FS 1961(d) Jefferson nickel is rarer than an MS65 1926(s) Buffalo nickel (even if it is 1/3 the price even today >>
Sort of comparing apples and oranges aren't you? The 26-s is very scarce in mint state. A pop 10 coin in 65 at pcgs with 5 at ngc plus one higher. And only a pop 111 in 64 at pcgs and 78 at ngc.
As for the 61-d in ms65, not FS, the pops don't matter since they aren't worth grading. Heritage's archive shows that an ngc in 67 not FS sold for less than $600 last summer.
Only the FS designation makes a difference. But why steps and not windows? What about those windows on Monticello? Why don't they count?
Sort of makes one have to rethink whether it make sense to base your collection on a miniscule design detail strike designation that does not assure one of a coin that has good eye appeal or even a good strike overall, and that often cannot be ascertained with certainty under a 10X loupe. And of course the same can be said of the FB Merc the FH Standing Lib and the FBL Frankie.
CG >>
Is anyone rethinking whether it makes sense to base your collection on a miniscule hairline or hit that often cannot be ascertained with certainty under a 10X loupe? If you want to carry this reasoning to the nth degree, both the 60-D and the 26-S are worth exactly 5 cents.
Many of us are trying to define the point - it's the plastic, it's the registry, it's the pop 1, it's modern vs. classic, it's an ad, it's the steps... Fact of the matter is that these are all causes of the effect that has our interest - the PRICE of the coin. All of the causes play a factor, so you are all correct, and all of you can congratulate everyone else for being so astute.
Mark, thats almost certainly true, and the reasons fun to speculate about. Thanks.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>
I tell you what, I paid 13.5k for a 53s Frankie in a MS65FBL >>
and yet there is a demand for the truly exceptional
I think it will go for 50K +
"behold, my nickel!"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Imagine showing this amazing treasure to a non- collector:
"behold, my nickel!" >>
Also, imagine telling him you paid $50,000 for it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I think it will go for 50K + >>
I can't imagine what the rest of their collection must look like, being able to pay 50K for it.
<< <i>I think it will go for 50K + >>
I didn't know that Full Steppers had that kind of money to spend
I suppose, if you agree with any of this nonsense, it is better to pay a huge premium for strike vs. a single grading point
on a peice of plastic.
Example:
Coin A...Grade...MS-68.....Price: $500.00
Coin B...Grade...MS-69.....Price: $40,000.00
I've never liked this finest graded B.S. because in many instances the finest graded is not necessarily the finest known.
By the way, what ever happened to that Franklin Half that brought $50-$60,000.00?
<< <i>Ok, you want logic? Maybe this particular Jefferson doesn't have full windows on Monticello. It has full steps but others of the same date without full steps have better struck >>
Excellent post! It is kind of odd how one area of strike sharpness brings such a premium even though a coin with a better strike but lacking sharpness in this area does not.
<< <i>Imagine showing this amazing treasure to a non- collector:
"behold, my nickel!" >>
It's virtually impossible to impress some non-collectors. But I've found that some
will respond to very high grade examples of current coins. In fact "large size", "gold"
or "wear" are the only other three attributes in the running which will often impress
complete outsiders. So you may as well spend your old coins or admit that a coin's
ability to impress non-collectors is one more thing that has no effect on coin prices.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
I think most people understand "old" and "rare" , too. As well as "what's it worth?"
This coin is neither old nor rare as an issue
I looked through a coffee can of change and came up with four 1960-D nickels
This is the nicest:
Yes, I know it's rare with "full steps" and that that's important to Jefferson collectors.
I'm sure they don't understand my taste or how I would choose to spend the coin money this nickel is going to cost.
as I don't understand theirs. and that's ok!
to outsiders, all coin collectors are nutty
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The coin pictured below would impress ALL non-collectors, and it's worth a buck.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
the intriguing thing about this constant and never-changing dialogue regarding the particular and fussy collecting habits of those of us choosing to collect Modern issues is simple. a collector who seeks the best, this 1960-D being his choice, is maligned. a collector choosing a worn to VF Bust Half-Dollar because it has a certain rare die pairing is heralded as a champion. the intrigue for me is that one sees fit to judge the other as foolish while one chooses to keep his opinion to himself, understanding that "to each his own" may apply to our hobby right to the core. it's what makes it such a great hobby to be involved in.
al h.
I also seek to understand! May we see some photographs of rare, full step nickels?
Why are they special and rare again?
here is the above coin for comparison..
will someone please post a picture of the steps on the subject coin?
and how IS the strike on the rest of the coin? is it full as well?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
My two cents: One thing that collectors and dealers need to appreciate is that the "FS" designation has always meant different things to different folks. For example, up until a couple years ago, NGC believed "FS" meant all 6 steps. PCGS was always fine with just 5 steps, but from a study of their graded coins throughout time, it appears to me that what "5 steps" has meant may have depended upon the treatment the 6 step actually receives or portions of the sixth step (or even other factors). Then, there is the issue of how to handle a coin with 5 complete steps with a small contact mark through them, but has portions of the 6th step present. And, of course the early societies of Jeff collectors from the 1960's and 1970's had their own view on the definition of FS often times by a study of "quadrants" from all of the 6 steps.
In the end, the study of Jeff nickels is quite complex (perhaps the most complex series of coins from 1938 to present). There are coins in holders I have seen that clearly do not deserve to be called "FS" using one or more of the various techniques/standards used to determine FS. Indeed, graders at the various services have (IMHO) over time slabbed "FS" coins that are not deserving of the "FS" designation and, on the flip side, there are many coins not labeled "FS" that are deserving of the designation applying one or more of the accepted standards.
It will be interesting to see whether, over the next decade or so, this series begins to get graded in a more uniform fashion between the top grading companies (and even within each grading company iteself). In the meantime, all I can say is that TRUE FS specimens of many of the coins in this series are quite elusive and highly collectible. There is little difference from the way I see it between a true 1961(d) gem FS nickel and a 1945(p) true gem+ FB Merc.
Wondercoin
<< <i>I apologize if my remarks offended. they are all "IMO"
I also seek to understand! May we see some photographs of rare, full step nickels?
Why are they special and rare again?
here is the above coin for comparison..
will someone please post a picture of the steps on the subject coin?
and how IS the strike on the rest of the coin? is it full as well? >>
I just shot this image...
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
no pictures from me and i'm not offended despite your poorly disguised knee jerk response at being cynical(my choice word for the day!!).
i'm more amazed at the fact that so many members choose to bark and growl at others who don't collect in the right fashion. i can't remember if it's Ford or Eliasberg who used to attend auctions all over the country/world searching for the coins he thought would suit his collection, standing out front with his paddle in the air for all to see. what an odd bird he must have looked like to so many who are now sleeping soundly in their graves. yet, his collection attests to the fact that he had a keen eye for quality and an appreciation for rarity, while retaining a respect for other collectors and their endeavors and clearly a love of the hobby, two things which can be in short supply here so often.
sometimes i'm surprised by what other collectors collect. this past weekend i found out that MadMarty had, in the past, assembled and sold collections of Proof Morgan Dollars and high grade MS Lincoln Cents. how many knew that??? not many, i imagine, and i'd almost bet that Mr. Baley didn't, wrongly assuming that His MadNess only knew about AU58's and ModernCrap™ among other things. perhaps the wisest thing to do here is to keep quiet about what we each collect for fear of being labeled as a nutcase for collecting in a certain area. that way, we can go to the grave with our accumulated knowledge and watch the hobby melt away while those collectors who have chosen to collect the right things can hold a meeting at the annual ANA convention in 2025, all 32 of them, huddled secretly away in a room on the 4th floor of the convention center as they discuss the wisdom of their choice and the emptiness of the room.
<< <i>
no pictures from me and i'm not offended despite your poorly disguised knee jerk response at being cynical(my choice word for the day!!).
i'm more amazed at the fact that so many members choose to bark and growl at others who don't collect in the right fashion. i can't remember if it's Ford or Eliasberg who used to attend auctions all over the country/world searching for the coins he thought would suit his collection, standing out front with his paddle in the air for all to see. what an odd bird he must have looked like to so many who are now sleeping soundly in their graves. yet, his collection attests to the fact that he had a keen eye for quality and an appreciation for rarity, while retaining a respect for other collectors and their endeavors and clearly a love of the hobby, two things which can be in short supply here so often.
sometimes i'm surprised by what other collectors collect. this past weekend i found out that MadMarty had, in the past, assembled and sold collections of Proof Morgan Dollars and high grade MS Lincoln Cents. how many knew that??? not many, i imagine, and i'd almost bet that Mr. Baley didn't, wrongly assuming that His MadNess only knew about AU58's and ModernCrap™ among other things. perhaps the wisest thing to do here is to keep quiet about what we each collect for fear of being labeled as a nutcase for collecting in a certain area. that way, we can go to the grave with our accumulated knowledge and watch the hobby melt away while those collectors who have chosen to collect the right things can hold a meeting at the annual ANA convention in 2025, all 32 of them, huddled secretly away in a room on the 4th floor of the convention center as they discuss the wisdom of their choice and the emptiness of the room. >>
And I used to collect Jefferson Nickels and I can assure you that well struck coins were highly sought after and avidly sought waaaaay back in the 1970s. I remember scouring a small group of 1954 S/D nickels for one with a strong strike, but I honestly can't remember what my 1960-D looked like.
You don't suppose thats my former coin in the Coinworld ad, do you? That would be ironic.
The down side of strike designations is that non-designated coin, even those with superior eye appeal, become orphans on the market.
And oh by the way, the window frame between the third and fourth pillars is not complete on Lucy’s coin.
CG.
Yes. It is true that the finest strikes don't always get the designations because the specific
area isn't fully struck, but this doesn't change the fact that the coins with fully struck steps
can be very rare or scarce. There are collectors who seek the highest grades or the finest
strikes independently of whether they have a designation or not. In some cases coins will
be available at give-away prices simply because it will involve an attribute which isn't espec-
ially valued at the present time.
Secondly it was John J Pittman who was famous for his "statue of liberty" bidding style. Ir-
onically it was also he that SanctionII was trying to remember yesterday as one of the very
first collectors of clad coins. It is interesting to note that none of his modern coins were sold
at the autions in '96/'97. No doubt, he advised his heirs to hold onto them for appreciation.
In my experience age doesn't impress outsiders unless you're talking ancients or pre-US coins.
But all this truly is irrelevant since what impresses them matters only if they want to buy.
The '60-D nickel is incredibly common still. But, it was never common with full steps and then
there has been a horrible attrition on them. Many bags and rolls of '60-D nickels and all other
US regular issues were set aside until 1965. But in those days the thinking was that the hob-
by would grow forever and that future collectors would desire BU coins. It never occurred to
collectors of that era that they were setting aside quantities which would prove ample till the
sun grew dim or that future collectors might desire well- made coins. Very few collectors made
a real effort to seek the finest examples and even when they did the odds of finding a full step
coin were heavily against them.
Some of the later dates are even much tougher. There aren't large numbers of some of these
set aside so it can be difficult to even find coins to check. Most of these coins are so inexpen-
sive that they often end up in circulation after they are checked.
<< <i>i found out that MadMarty had, in the past, assembled and sold collections of Proof Morgan Dollars and high grade MS Lincoln Cents. how many knew that??? >>
I did.
Russ, NCNE
<< i found out that MadMarty had, in the past, assembled and sold collections of Proof Morgan Dollars and high grade MS Lincoln Cents. how many knew that??? >>
I did.
Russ, NCNE
Me too...
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>No doubt, he advised his heirs to hold onto them for appreciation >>
I understand they were fed into parking meters.
CG
<< <i>
<< <i>No doubt, he advised his heirs to hold onto them for appreciation >>
I understand they were fed into parking meters.
CG >>
There was some interest in them at the time. Of course in those days ('96/ '97) a parking
meter would have offered about as much value as the market for dimes and quarters.
The best way to know whether or not this coin is REALLY worth what it will undoubtedly sell for is to have B&M crack it out and send it in for grading along with a bunch of other modern coins to see if it comes back at the same grade, with the FS designation.
If it does, the coin is truly rare and probably worth every penny someone pays for it.
However, I would lay 50 to 1 odds that if this nickel was submitted at the $18 service level with 19 other common nickels, it won't.
So there's food for thought....
BTW -- this holds true for most 45-P Mercury Dimes with FB.
<< <i>
<< <i>Imagine showing this amazing treasure to a non- collector:
"behold, my nickel!" >>
Also, imagine telling him you paid $50,000 for it. >>
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ...
and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
<< <i>The best way to know whether or not this coin is REALLY worth what it will undoubtedly sell for is to have B&M crack it out and send it in for grading along with a bunch of other modern coins to see if it comes back at the same grade, with the FS designation.
If it does, the coin is truly rare and probably worth every penny someone pays for it.
However, I would lay 50 to 1 odds that if this nickel was submitted at the $18 service level with 19 other common nickels, it won't.
So there's food for thought....
BTW -- this holds true for most 45-P Mercury Dimes with FB. >>
My understanding is that full steps is something that PCGS has been fairly consistent on. Yes, I know
that many believe otherwise but for the main part a nickel either has the steps or it doesn't. There are
not large numbers of liners or changing standards for this. I haven't seen this coin so woyuldn't know
if it's a liner or not.
<< <i>The best way to know whether or not this coin is REALLY worth what it will undoubtedly sell for is to have B&M crack it out and send it in for grading along with a bunch of other modern coins to see if it comes back at the same grade, with the FS designation.
If it does, the coin is truly rare and probably worth every penny someone pays for it.
However, I would lay 50 to 1 odds that if this nickel was submitted at the $18 service level with 19 other common nickels, it won't.
So there's food for thought....
BTW -- this holds true for most 45-P Mercury Dimes with FB. >>
My understanding is that full steps is something that PCGS has been fairly consistent on. Yes, I know
that many believe otherwise but for the main part a nickel either has the steps or it doesn't. There are
not large numbers of liners or changing standards for this. I haven't seen this coin so wouldn't know
if it's a liner or not.
<< <i>I have plenty of respect for a collector searching long and hard and finding one of these modern rarities-- But the issue remains whether or not it should reasonably be worth $20K to $30K as some people are suggesting. At that supposed value, I'd bet over 95% of coin people would chose this coin near last if offered a free pick coins from a group of other denominations of equal value/rarity. The auction coin is rare OK, it's neat a specialist found it, but in my opinion just lacks special eye appeal or any inherent beauty outside the grade and steps designation. >>
Here, I'll take your bet. I've put the following five coins on a table, all PCGS graded:
- 1960-D Jeffersom Nickel MS65FS
- 1794 Flowing Hair Dollar VG8
- Toned Oregon Half Dollar MS68
- 1969-S Lincoln Cent Doubled Die Obverse MS65RD
- 1878 Morgan Dollar VAM-44 MS64
Leaving aside things like resale or investment potential, I would argue that "95% of coin people" would rather spend their $25-30,000 on other coins than take any of those five coins. Why? Because all five coins appeal to a small, specialized group of high-end collectors, the appeal of which is lost on a vast majority of everyday collectors (okay, maybe the Flowing Hair Dollar is a bad example because of type collectors, but you get the point I'm trying to make). And yes, I used to collect full step Jeffersons, many of which I purchased raw from Sue & Rich Sisti through their Nickel Express auctions, at prices that probably seem ridiculous then and now to the averge collector.
Maybe one of the devil's advocates in this thread can explain to me why the premium for a rare modern full-step Jefferson is any less valid than the prices paid for monster toned coins, doubled dies, or VAMs.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>I have plenty of respect for a collector searching long and hard and finding one of these modern rarities-- But the issue remains whether or not it should reasonably be worth $20K to $30K as some people are suggesting. At that supposed value, I'd bet over 95% of coin people would chose this coin near last if offered a free pick coins from a group of other denominations of equal value/rarity. The auction coin is rare OK, it's neat a specialist found it, but in my opinion just lacks special eye appeal or any inherent beauty outside the grade and steps designation. >>
Here, I'll take your bet. I've put the following five coins on a table, all PCGS graded:
- 1960-D Jeffersom Nickel MS65FS
- 1794 Flowing Hair Dollar VG8
- Toned Oregon Half Dollar MS68
- 1969-S Lincoln Cent Doubled Die Obverse MS65RD
- 1878 Morgan Dollar VAM-44 MS64
Leaving aside things like resale or investment potential, I would argue that "95% of coin people" would rather spend their $25-30,000 on other coins than take any of those five coins. Why? Because all five coins appeal to a small, specialized group of high-end collectors, the appeal of which is lost on a vast majority of everyday collectors (okay, maybe the Flowing Hair Dollar is a bad example because of type collectors, but you get the point I'm trying to make). And yes, I used to collect full step Jeffersons, many of which I purchased raw from Sue & Rich Sisti through their Nickel Express auctions, at prices that probably seem ridiculous then and now to the averge collector.
Sean Reynolds >>
I'm not sure of the meaning of your question but will address the rest of the post.
It is true that 95% would take one of the others but the '60-D is the rarest of this bunch
and with equal demand would command a far higher price than any of the others. The
demand is not equal so it is a relative bargain.
<< <i>
I'm not sure of the meaning of your question but will address the rest of the post.
>>
The point I was trying to raise was this:
Q: "Why did this AU 1878 Morgan Dollar sell for over $10,000 when I can buy a generic UNC for under $100?"
A: "Because it is a rare VAM-44"
... and this is perfectly acceptible.
Q: "Why is that MS61 1969-S Lincoln cent being auctioned for $34,000 when I can pull one that looks almost as nice from the 'leave a penny' jar at the 7-11?"
A: "Because it is a rare Doubled Die Obverse."
... and this is perfectly acceptible
Q: "Why is that 1960-D nickel selling for five figures when I found four of them in my change jar at face value?"
A: "Because it is a rare fully struck example with five full steps."
... and this is somehow a travesty?
I don't understand why the specialized markets for the first two coins are different than the one for the nickel. I'm hoping someone can enlighten me.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
<< <i>
I'm not sure of the meaning of your question but will address the rest of the post.
>>
The point I was trying to raise was this:
Q: "Why did this AU 1878 Morgan Dollar sell for over $10,000 when I can buy a generic UNC for under $100?"
A: "Because it is a rare VAM-44"
... and this is perfectly acceptible.
Q: "Why is that MS61 1969-S Lincoln cent being auctioned for $34,000 when I can pull one that looks almost as nice from the 'leave a penny' jar at the 7-11?"
A: "Because it is a rare Doubled Die Obverse."
... and this is perfectly acceptible
Q: "Why is that 1960-D nickel selling for five figures when I found four of them in my change jar at face value?"
A: "Because it is a rare fully struck example with five full steps."
... and this is somehow a travesty?
I don't understand why the specialized markets for the first two coins are different than the one for the nickel. I'm hoping someone can enlighten me.
Sean Reynolds >>
Sean, here's my take at trying to help you understand.
The Morgan will be a VAM 150 times over, no matter how many times it's graded. The grade might change, but the fact that it's a VAM variety will not.
The Lincoln cent has a doubled die, and it can be graded 1,000 times by 20 different services, and the fact that it's a doubled die will never change.
The difference with this nickel is that whether or not it has FS is subjective. And unfortunately ALL of this coin's purported value derives just from that. If the coin would not receive an FS designation on a crackout/resubmittal, it would be worth about $15. If somehow the coin was nicked on the steps, it would immediately be worth about $15.
Conversely, if the VAM or the lincoln cent was nicked, sure it might grade lower but it's still a VAM and it's still a doubled die.
You might not agree, which is totally cool, but do you at least understand this perspective?
Can you tell I don't collect jeffs (other than war nickels)
al h. (uncapitalized on purpose)
But to each their own.... I'd probably pay a slight premium for a well struck 1877 trade dollar [which almost always comes flat in the stars].
<< <i>It is true that 95% would take one of the others but the '60-D is the rarest of this bunch >>
It's not rarer than the 1794 Dollar.
You simply cannot make that comparison.
How can I say this. The 60-D has a special designation...FS. If you want to be that specific about the technical aspects of a particular coin. Then you have to be that technical about the other coin for a true comparison. Is the 60-D as rare as say a 1794 Special Proof (SP).
What are the odds of another 60-D with FS being found compared to the odds of finding another Special Proof (SP) 1794 Dollar?
What it always comes down to is absolute rarity vs condition(grade) rarity.
This isn't even about condition rarity but designation (FS/Strike) rarity.
<< <i>Sean, here's my take at trying to help you understand.
The Morgan will be a VAM 150 times over, no matter how many times it's graded. The grade might change, but the fact that it's a VAM variety will not.
The Lincoln cent has a doubled die, and it can be graded 1,000 times by 20 different services, and the fact that it's a doubled die will never change.
The difference with this nickel is that whether or not it has FS is subjective. And unfortunately ALL of this coin's purported value derives just from that. If the coin would not receive an FS designation on a crackout/resubmittal, it would be worth about $15. If somehow the coin was nicked on the steps, it would immediately be worth about $15.
Conversely, if the VAM or the lincoln cent was nicked, sure it might grade lower but it's still a VAM and it's still a doubled die.
You might not agree, which is totally cool, but do you at least understand this perspective? >>
Totally get it: you're saying the VAM and the doubled die are OBJECTIVE while the full steps are SUBJECTIVE. Not everyone who looks at those steps will necessarily agree that they are full, but everyone who looks at a 1969-S DDO will agree that the die is doubled. I would argue that Full Steps aren't quite as subjective as you think, but I'll concede that point.
So does that make the agument that no one should pay a hefty premium based on their SUBJECTIVE opinion of a coin? That only a fool would pay extra for ultra-high grades or 'finest known' or superb toning or Deep Cameo or Full Bell Lines or Full Steps? Because not everyone is going to be able to agree all the time that your MS70 modern is not an MS69, or that your DCAM proof isn't really just a Cameo, or your Red Lincoln Cent isn't really Red-Brown, or your full-step nickel really has full steps?
None of these debates are about to get solved here, in the end it comes down to individual preferences. How many threads have we had in here debating why someone would pay moon money for an MS70 when to most collectors they are indistinguishable from a MS69? So I guess some folks view Full Step Jefersons the same way... I don't, but I suppose I can understand that point of view. But coin collectors make - and assign values based on - subjective opinions all the time, and what I can't understand is how some people can ridicule one subjective analysis of a coin or series while embracing another.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor