Seanq's list of 5 free coins "you pick one free" illustrates half my point: Namely the vast majority of collectors concur that the top toned MS68 Oregon Trail is just a beautiful coin intrinsically (see the Legend website header). And no matter what you say the 1794 Dollar being the first US Dollar (historic) as well as just neat and rare for type collectors means it would be selected ahead of the Nickel too.
And Mercdimeguy is right -- the nickel is an oddity for having a special strike designation, it's not a unique die-pair/doubling the will always be recognised regardless of the condition. Hit that Nickel on the steps and what do you have??
Which gets to my real complaint--Most people aren't impressed by an especially nice strike as Tradedollarnut says, outside of the eye appeal pizzaz it adds--and to my eye the MS64 doesn't have much pizzaz!!
Yes it's really a special and neat coin, but why would it be valued so highly just because of a non-ugly strike intead of it's own inherent beauty/history/eye appeal???.
why is everyone wetting their diaper just because some collectors are willing to step up and lay down big money for a coin the diaper wetters don't appreciate??
Totally get it: you're saying the VAM and the doubled die are OBJECTIVE while the full steps are SUBJECTIVE. Not everyone who looks at those steps will necessarily agree that they are full, but everyone who looks at a 1969-S DDO will agree that the die is doubled. I would argue that Full Steps aren't quite as subjective as you think, but I'll concede that point.
So does that make the agument that no one should pay a hefty premium based on their SUBJECTIVE opinion of a coin? That only a fool would pay extra for ultra-high grades or 'finest known' or superb toning or Deep Cameo or Full Bell Lines or Full Steps? Because not everyone is going to be able to agree all the time that your MS70 modern is not an MS69, or that your DCAM proof isn't really just a Cameo, or your Red Lincoln Cent isn't really Red-Brown, or your full-step nickel really has full steps?
None of these debates are about to get solved here, in the end it comes down to individual preferences. How many threads have we had in here debating why someone would pay moon money for an MS70 when to most collectors they are indistinguishable from a MS69? So I guess some folks view Full Step Jefersons the same way... I don't, but I suppose I can understand that point of view. But coin collectors make - and assign values based on - subjective opinions all the time, and what I can't understand is how some people can ridicule one subjective analysis of a coin or series while embracing another.
<< <i>Totally get it: you're saying the VAM and the doubled die are OBJECTIVE while the full steps are SUBJECTIVE. Not everyone who looks at those steps will necessarily agree that they are full, but everyone who looks at a 1969-S DDO will agree that the die is doubled. I would argue that Full Steps aren't quite as subjective as you think, but I'll concede that point.
So does that make the agument that no one should pay a hefty premium based on their SUBJECTIVE opinion of a coin? That only a fool would pay extra for ultra-high grades or 'finest known' or superb toning or Deep Cameo or Full Bell Lines or Full Steps? Because not everyone is going to be able to agree all the time that your MS70 modern is not an MS69, or that your DCAM proof isn't really just a Cameo, or your Red Lincoln Cent isn't really Red-Brown, or your full-step nickel really has full steps?
None of these debates are about to get solved here, in the end it comes down to individual preferences. How many threads have we had in here debating why someone would pay moon money for an MS70 when to most collectors they are indistinguishable from a MS69? So I guess some folks view Full Step Jefersons the same way... I don't, but I suppose I can understand that point of view. But coin collectors make - and assign values based on - subjective opinions all the time, and what I can't understand is how some people can ridicule one subjective analysis of a coin or series while embracing another.
Sean Reynolds >>
I'll leave the arguing to those that like to argue
I just wanted to shed some light on one of the perspectives stated herein.
At the end of the day, people vote with their wallets. Some cast their vote for a piece of plastic with a stated grade, and some cast their vote for what's in the plastic. Some do both, and then yet again some do neither. To each his own, and God bless
I wasn't ridiculing anyone over subjectivity-- I was pointing out that a rare die pair or doubling was intinsic to a coin, but strike is not an inherent part of the coin's characteristics--certainly after circulation. As far as of the selected equal value Oregon Trail, 1794 Dollar, etc being subjectively more attractive than 1960-D to most collectors--I think that's true, but is really a subjective statement absent a vote. If strike of the steps area of Washington Nickels is subjectively that important asthetically to then by all means collect on that basis--to each his own!
Since there's such a premium on 60-D nickels with full steps, why isn't there a corresponding designation of full strike on other moderns, for example the Washington Quarter or Kennedy Half Dollar, or all coins for that matter?
I would suggest the premium is overmwhelmingly due to the TPGs inventing the designation and marketing it through registry sets pumping the demand side of the price equation.
Just my opinion, not bashing full strike moderns, of which I own a few...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Yes it's really a special and neat coin, but why would it be valued so highly just because of a non-ugly strike intead of it's own inherent beauty/history/eye appeal???. >>
Profit?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
So Washington and Hamilton are standing around the water bucket and Washington says "Well Al, have ya seen that godawful piece of Modern Crap they came up with at the mint? What a great idea you had! We need a mint, you said. Well look at this barking dog and tell how you like your mint now, eh?"
"Okay, okay" replies Hamilton. "At least we can be sure that no moron will ever pay a premium to own such a piece of Modern Crap"
So Washington and Hamilton are standing around the water bucket and Washington says "Well Al, have ya seen that godawful piece of Modern Crap they came up with at the mint? What a great idea you had! We need a mint, you said. Well look at this barking dog and tell how you like your mint now, eh?"
"Okay, okay" replies Hamilton. "At least we can be sure that no moron will ever pay a premium to own such a piece of Modern Crap" >>
And you're comparing a $200,000 coin to a $20,000 coin? Is that correct?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I'm just trying to understand your analogy between the two coins. My guess is, in 150 years, the 60-D will be valued the same but with the inflation we have with us today, it just might reach that $200,000 in 50 years!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
For those who scoff at collecting later minted coins, there's a ton of history out there that surround every coin denomination. Thousands of collectors and dealers have saved high quality coins over the years and we are collecting them today. Clubs were formed over that time and some are still with us today. My hat comes off for each and everyone of them and this includes everyone who loves collecting coins! And with every coin series, there are years where that date didn't do so well and I'm certain we could name hunderds of examples but for the 1960-D, there is some history for this coin as well. To make this post short, the coin in the Baltimore auction and the one in my collection, both coins came from the same collector, Bern Nagengast. My coin plus another can be seen in my profile! But we don't have decent pictures of Mark's coin. Hopefully that will change this third time around. Nagengast has written a book, "The Jefferson Nickel Analyst" and I encourage anyone who is interested in learning about or collecting Jefferson nickels to get this book.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Very interesting post, and a prime example of why the US Coin forum is such a great place to spend time with and become educated.
Thanks to CladKing for correcting me (John Pittman instead of Eliasberg collecting moderns). It would be very interesting to look at the moderns that Mr. Pittman collected and see first hand the end result of his efforts to acquire moderns. With his eye for quality, I bet some of the pieces he acquired are exquiste. I doubt that he limited his efforts to acquiring fresh rolls of BU coins from banks each year and setting them aside.
Does anyone know if Mr. Pittman's heirs have allowed anyone outside of the family to view and inspect his modern holdings? If so, it would be interesting to have that person tell us about the experience.
Instead of this turning into a Classic v Modern thread, let's try to focus on grading and the best possible way to describe the state of preservation for a Jefferson Nickel.
While I do not have to be sold on the general concept that certain date full step Jeffs are rare, and you know more about that than I..., I am just questioning whether that full steps are the best measure to use as a diagnostic as to the describe the coin...and the completeness of the Monticello. I have this feeling that with respect to this series, it is not unreasonable to have some designation as to the completeness of Monticello... afterall, the steps are only part of Monticello and pillars, door, windows and portico seem to be overlooked. There really needs to be some consideration to rethinking the full step designation or at a minimum, adding an alternative that addresses a greater surface area of the coin.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The 1960-D is worth $20,000 or more with full steps ... or a few hundred dollars withOUT them.
Nothing wrong with that. Despite the many collectors on this thread who think I'm nuts (and a wife who agrees with them but is comfortable with my "foolishness"), I'll pay that premium in blink of the eyes, and have many times.
It's my money and if it makes me happy, who are you to tell me "no, here's a better way to spend your money"? Maybe a better way for you to spend my money, but if you don't mind I'd like to spend my money my own way.
Since I can't attend the coin show, I'll be represented by an agent who will carefully check out the '60-D and several other lovelies there. If the steps are there, you can be sure I'll be one of the final bidders with a paddle up. If the steps aren't there, adios Harry, that's waaaay too much for the plastic.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
Instead of this turning into a Classic v Modern thread, let's try to focus on grading and the best possible way to describe the state of preservation for a Jefferson Nickel.
While I do not have to be sold on the general concept that certain date full step Jeffs are rare, and you know more about that than I..., I am just questioning whether that full steps are the best measure to use as a diagnostic as to the describe the coin...and the completeness of the Monticello. I have this feeling that with respect to this series, it is not unreasonable to have some designation as to the completeness of Monticello... afterall, the steps are only part of Monticello and pillars, door, windows and portico seem to be overlooked. There really needs to be some consideration to rethinking the full step designation or at a minimum, adding an alternative that addresses a greater surface area of the coin. >>
There's no simple answer to this question. On the later coins the steps are usually about the last thing to strike up so when they are present there's a good chance it's a very good strike. On earlier coins, es- pecially those from the '50's this is much less true. Indeed, with some coins (like the '54-S) it nearly be- comes an either/ or proposition.
Those who seek well struck coins learn to look at certain details first simply because they tend to make or break a coin. With Jeffersons that tends to be the steps.
<< <i>The 1960-D is worth $20,000 or more with full steps ... or a few hundred dollars withOUT them.
Nothing wrong with that. Despite the many collectors on this thread who think I'm nuts (and a wife who agrees with them but is comfortable with my "foolishness"), I'll pay that premium in blink of the eyes, and have many times.
It's my money and if it makes me happy, who are you to tell me "no, here's a better way to spend your money"? Maybe a better way for you to spend my money, but if you don't mind I'd like to spend my money my own way.
Since I can't attend the coin show, I'll be represented by an agent who will carefully check out the '60-D and several other lovelies there. If the steps are there, you can be sure I'll be one of the final bidders with a paddle up. If the steps aren't there, adios Harry, that's waaaay too much for the plastic.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun >>
You go Daddy-o!
Be Bop A Lula!! "Senorita HepKitty" "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Now for the real fun... full steps, whether 5, 5.5 or 6, basically require that the steps be uninterrupted by a nick or mark. On a coin that grades MS65 or perhaps 66, the nick may be small, and effects the steps, but does not effect the rest of the structure of Monticello... and if Monticello looks pretty attractive, why should that coin basically be written off because it does not have full steps? In fact, the strike may well be as good, if not better than a full steps example... this is just one of the concerns and issues I have with Full Steps being the only designation for this series... it is just not the most representative way of describing the state of preservation of the coin...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Maybe these are just expensive--So what's a MS-66 60D with beautiful original lusterous surfaces and nearly but not full steps worth if a FS 64 is $23,000 ++??
There's a middle ground everyone learns to play on. This includes the coin graders, dealers and collectors. No one starts at the same level as a season collector. It has taken me years to learn the patterns of strike charactoristics, surface conditions and eye appeal to many of these coins. Like they say, grading coins is not an exact science. For instance, there are varieties that are only known to collectors. But as time ages, some will come to light but for now everyone starts with steps and learns the rest along the way.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I have been at this for about 34 years... I am of the view that grading is an evolutionary process. If we look at the Red Books from the late 1940's and 1950's and the grades listed, it is clearly antiquated by what we see today. I understand that the full steps of Monticello is where we have traditionally started on the Jefferson series in terms of evaluating the strike... its just that I am not of the view it is the definitive standard by which all Jeffersons should be judged... partially because it is an unreasonable standard for the mediocre quality that was generally accepted by the US Mint. Further, the steps still are a very small part of the design and the surface of the coin and the structure of Monticello. I think there is room to consider alternative standards other than full steps for this series...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
"Since I can't attend the coin show, I'll be represented by an agent who will carefully check out the '60-D and several other lovelies there. If the steps are there, you can be sure I'll be one of the final bidders with a paddle up. If the steps aren't there, adios Harry, that's waaaay too much for the plastic."
Seems like that #1 Registry set holder isn't the least bit affected by the concept of "pop 1", the quest for a "complete set of FS nickels" or "Registry fever".
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>"Since I can't attend the coin show, I'll be represented by an agent who will carefully check out the '60-D and several other lovelies there. If the steps are there, you can be sure I'll be one of the final bidders with a paddle up. If the steps aren't there, adios Harry, that's waaaay too much for the plastic."
Seems like that #1 Registry set holder isn't the least bit affected by the concept of "pop 1", the quest for a "complete set of FS nickels" or "Registry fever".
Wondercoin >>
But that's the reason for the popurarity of this nickel! Without it, a collection will lose money at auction. This is one of those coins that separate the meticulous from the greedy.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>Now for the real fun... full steps, whether 5, 5.5 or 6, basically require that the steps be uninterrupted by a nick or mark. On a coin that grades MS65 or perhaps 66, the nick may be small, and effects the steps, but does not effect the rest of the structure of Monticello... and if Monticello looks pretty attractive, why should that coin basically be written off because it does not have full steps? In fact, the strike may well be as good, if not better than a full steps example... this is just one of the concerns and issues I have with Full Steps being the only designation for this series... it is just not the most representative way of describing the state of preservation of the coin... >>
Another case of, "to each his own" and "hopefully, others will catch on!" I have several high quality coins in my collection that have a minor flaw with the steps! Whether it be a bridge, nick or struck-thru or the steps did not completely strike up. A COLLECTOR NEEDS TO EXAMINE THE ENTIRE COIN! And many new collectors are learning this. It's too much of a risk to buy overgraded certified coins and hold them. The window to move such coins is not that wide for this series.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I would suggest the premium is overmwhelmingly due to the TPGs inventing the designation and marketing it through registry sets pumping the demand side of the price equation.
another example of misrepresenting the true fact of the matter through ignorance and placing the cart before the horse. collectors of Full Step Jefferson Nickels and their passionate attempts to assemble sets while forming the FSNC and meticulously counting quarters predates the grading services by a few decades. it no doubt took some lobbying by collectors to get the services to add the designation to the grade since it only started sometime around 1997, 10 years after the inception of PCGS, not your imagined scenario of PCGS inventing it to hype Registry Set collecting.
The 60-D Jefferson went for $11,212.50, including the juice. Most of the bidding was internet and phone, as there were only two raises in the auction room. Too bad for the prior owner who took a $20k loss on the coin.
I like the Jeffs, but didn't care for this coin, as rare as it is. It is low end 64 with a gouge on the cheek, and has been given a pretty good dipping. The coin is, however, full steps, although a barely makes it example, with a cut through the steps and fading of the 4th step under the second pillar. But, it was worth it to somebody, so congrats to the new owner. Enjoy!
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
The highlight of this Jefferson Collection was the 1942D/D Jeff in PCGS-MS64FS which sold for $18,000 plus buyers fee. The 1960(d) nickel (the subject of the full page ad) sold for just $9,750 plus buyers fee, as compared to the near $32,000 (if I recall correctly) the same coin fetched the last time it sold last year (but, most of that $32,000 prior price level I believe was merely "chasing a consignor's reserve" anyway). I fully expected this to occur as nearly all of the very top collectors in this series today demand superb quality for the price and ARE INDEED buying the coin not the holder. There were a number of other wonderful coins in the collection as well, including a lovely true gem FS 1953(p), which is seldom seen.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
The owner lost over 20,000 on this coin in one year I hope he bought several hundred Buffalo dollars to make up for it-------------------------------------BigE
Why not pursue that with PCGS and have them take care of their mistake. Isn't that what their guaranteen is about? Then you don't have to "eat" a $9,000 coin that you don't want. The market would be better with that as a non-full step coin and stricken from the pop reports. That's where part of our standard submission fee goes to.
<< <i>The 60-D Jefferson went for $11,212.50, including the juice. Most of the bidding was internet and phone, as there were only two raises in the auction room. Too bad for the prior owner who took a $20k loss on the coin.
I like the Jeffs, but didn't care for this coin, as rare as it is. It is low end 64 with a gouge on the cheek, and has been given a pretty good dipping. The coin is, however, full steps, although a barely makes it example, with a cut through the steps and fading of the 4th step under the second pillar. But, it was worth it to somebody, so congrats to the new owner. Enjoy! >>
<< <i>Why not pursue that with PCGS and have them take care of their mistake. Isn't that what their guaranteen is about? Then you don't have to "eat" a $9,000 coin that you don't want. The market would be better with that as a non-full step coin and stricken from the pop reports. That's where part of our standard submission fee goes to.
roadrunner >>
Not sure the 60-D is a PCGS mistake, but rather a mistake of the collector. I think it is properly graded. Reminds you of the collector who bought the 53-S Franklin in 66FBL for $69k, then sold it a year later for about $35k. "Caveat emptor" when dealing with those pop top coins that may not all be there for most collectors. The 61-D may be more of a case. A more presentable 64 coin, but in my opinion not a FS coin, and it went for $8,050.
There were some nice coins in this collection. The 42-D/Horizontal D is a beautiful coin, pop.2. The 53-P in 65FS was similarly nice, and the 59-P in 66FS with a pop. of 10, was propoerly graded and nicely toned. At $1495, seemed like one of the better deals in the set. The 55-D in 65FS, pop 5, is nice and original and went for $7,475.
These coins have a better chance at sustaining their values at these levels than those even moreso relying on their steps to substantiate value, like the 60-D and 61-D. Either way, these were strong (record setting?) prices for Jefferson nickels and it will be interesting to watch where prices go from here.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
"Not sure the 60-D is a PCGS mistake, but rather a mistake of the collector. I think it is properly graded"
Check out JHF's thread over on the Registry Forum. IMHO, the only "mistake" the collector made was not letting PCGS see the coin before he auctioned it off.
"The 42-D/Horizontal D is a beautiful coin, pop.2. The 53-P in 65FS was similarly nice,"
Agreed here. Don't be surprised to see a POP 1/0 42D/D 65FS and one less 64FS coming out of that coin. The 55(d) was also a very high end gem.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
And Mercdimeguy is right -- the nickel is an oddity for having a special strike designation, it's not a unique die-pair/doubling the will always be recognised regardless of the condition. Hit that Nickel on the steps and what do you have??
Which gets to my real complaint--Most people aren't impressed by an especially nice strike as Tradedollarnut says, outside of the eye appeal pizzaz it adds--and to my eye the MS64 doesn't have much pizzaz!!
Yes it's really a special and neat coin, but why would it be valued so highly just because of a non-ugly strike intead of it's own inherent beauty/history/eye appeal???.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
Totally get it: you're saying the VAM and the doubled die are OBJECTIVE while the full steps are SUBJECTIVE. Not everyone who looks at those steps will necessarily agree that they are full, but everyone who looks at a 1969-S DDO will agree that the die is doubled. I would argue that Full Steps aren't quite as subjective as you think, but I'll concede that point.
So does that make the agument that no one should pay a hefty premium based on their SUBJECTIVE opinion of a coin? That only a fool would pay extra for ultra-high grades or 'finest known' or superb toning or Deep Cameo or Full Bell Lines or Full Steps? Because not everyone is going to be able to agree all the time that your MS70 modern is not an MS69, or that your DCAM proof isn't really just a Cameo, or your Red Lincoln Cent isn't really Red-Brown, or your full-step nickel really has full steps?
None of these debates are about to get solved here, in the end it comes down to individual preferences. How many threads have we had in here debating why someone would pay moon money for an MS70 when to most collectors they are indistinguishable from a MS69? So I guess some folks view Full Step Jefersons the same way... I don't, but I suppose I can understand that point of view. But coin collectors make - and assign values based on - subjective opinions all the time, and what I can't understand is how some people can ridicule one subjective analysis of a coin or series while embracing another.
Sean Reynolds >>
This is very well stated and deserves repetition.
<< <i>Totally get it: you're saying the VAM and the doubled die are OBJECTIVE while the full steps are SUBJECTIVE. Not everyone who looks at those steps will necessarily agree that they are full, but everyone who looks at a 1969-S DDO will agree that the die is doubled. I would argue that Full Steps aren't quite as subjective as you think, but I'll concede that point.
So does that make the agument that no one should pay a hefty premium based on their SUBJECTIVE opinion of a coin? That only a fool would pay extra for ultra-high grades or 'finest known' or superb toning or Deep Cameo or Full Bell Lines or Full Steps? Because not everyone is going to be able to agree all the time that your MS70 modern is not an MS69, or that your DCAM proof isn't really just a Cameo, or your Red Lincoln Cent isn't really Red-Brown, or your full-step nickel really has full steps?
None of these debates are about to get solved here, in the end it comes down to individual preferences. How many threads have we had in here debating why someone would pay moon money for an MS70 when to most collectors they are indistinguishable from a MS69? So I guess some folks view Full Step Jefersons the same way... I don't, but I suppose I can understand that point of view. But coin collectors make - and assign values based on - subjective opinions all the time, and what I can't understand is how some people can ridicule one subjective analysis of a coin or series while embracing another.
Sean Reynolds >>
I'll leave the arguing to those that like to argue
I just wanted to shed some light on one of the perspectives stated herein.
At the end of the day, people vote with their wallets. Some cast their vote for a piece of plastic with a stated grade, and some cast their vote for what's in the plastic. Some do both, and then yet again some do neither. To each his own, and God bless
If strike of the steps area of Washington Nickels is subjectively that important asthetically to then by all means collect on that basis--to each his own!
I would suggest the premium is overmwhelmingly due to the TPGs inventing the designation and marketing it through registry sets pumping the demand side of the price equation.
Just my opinion, not bashing full strike moderns, of which I own a few...Mike
<< <i>Yes it's really a special and neat coin, but why would it be valued so highly just because of a non-ugly strike intead of it's own inherent beauty/history/eye appeal???. >>
Profit?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
So Washington and Hamilton are standing around the water bucket and Washington says "Well Al, have ya seen that godawful piece of Modern Crap they came up with at the mint? What a great idea you had! We need a mint, you said. Well look at this barking dog and tell how you like your mint now, eh?"
"Okay, okay" replies Hamilton. "At least we can be sure that no moron will ever pay a premium to own such a piece of Modern Crap"
<< <i>Modern Crap sucks!
So Washington and Hamilton are standing around the water bucket and Washington says "Well Al, have ya seen that godawful piece of Modern Crap they came up with at the mint? What a great idea you had! We need a mint, you said. Well look at this barking dog and tell how you like your mint now, eh?"
"Okay, okay" replies Hamilton. "At least we can be sure that no moron will ever pay a premium to own such a piece of Modern Crap" >>
And you're comparing a $200,000 coin to a $20,000 coin? Is that correct?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>You're missing the point, Leo. >>
I'm just trying to understand your analogy between the two coins. My guess is, in 150 years, the 60-D will be valued the same but with the inflation we have with us today, it just might reach that $200,000 in 50 years!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Link
CG
And with every coin series, there are years where that date didn't do so well and I'm certain we could name hunderds of examples but for the 1960-D, there is some history for this coin as well. To make this post short, the coin in the Baltimore auction and the one in my collection, both coins came from the same collector, Bern Nagengast. My coin plus another can be seen in my profile! But we don't have decent pictures of Mark's coin. Hopefully that will change this third time around. Nagengast has written a book, "The Jefferson Nickel Analyst" and I encourage anyone who is interested in learning about or collecting Jefferson nickels to get this book.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Thanks to CladKing for correcting me (John Pittman instead of Eliasberg collecting moderns). It would be very interesting to look at the moderns that Mr. Pittman collected and see first hand the end result of his efforts to acquire moderns. With his eye for quality, I bet some of the pieces he acquired are exquiste. I doubt that he limited his efforts to acquiring fresh rolls of BU coins from banks each year and setting them aside.
Does anyone know if Mr. Pittman's heirs have allowed anyone outside of the family to view and inspect his modern holdings? If so, it would be interesting to have that person tell us about the experience.
Instead of this turning into a Classic v Modern thread, let's try to focus on grading and the best possible way to describe the state of preservation for a Jefferson Nickel.
While I do not have to be sold on the general concept that certain date full step Jeffs are rare, and you know more about that than I..., I am just questioning whether that full steps are the best measure to use as a diagnostic as to the describe the coin...and the completeness of the Monticello. I have this feeling that with respect to this series, it is not unreasonable to have some designation as to the completeness of Monticello... afterall, the steps are only part of Monticello and pillars, door, windows and portico seem to be overlooked. There really needs to be some consideration to rethinking the full step designation or at a minimum, adding an alternative that addresses a greater surface area of the coin.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Nothing wrong with that. Despite the many collectors on this thread who think I'm nuts (and a wife who agrees with them but is comfortable with my "foolishness"), I'll pay that premium in blink of the eyes, and have many times.
It's my money and if it makes me happy, who are you to tell me "no, here's a better way to spend your money"? Maybe a better way for you to spend my money, but if you don't mind I'd like to spend my money my own way.
Since I can't attend the coin show, I'll be represented by an agent who will carefully check out the '60-D and several other lovelies there. If the steps are there, you can be sure I'll be one of the final bidders with a paddle up. If the steps aren't there, adios Harry, that's waaaay too much for the plastic.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun
<< <i>Leo:
Instead of this turning into a Classic v Modern thread, let's try to focus on grading and the best possible way to describe the state of preservation for a Jefferson Nickel.
While I do not have to be sold on the general concept that certain date full step Jeffs are rare, and you know more about that than I..., I am just questioning whether that full steps are the best measure to use as a diagnostic as to the describe the coin...and the completeness of the Monticello. I have this feeling that with respect to this series, it is not unreasonable to have some designation as to the completeness of Monticello... afterall, the steps are only part of Monticello and pillars, door, windows and portico seem to be overlooked. There really needs to be some consideration to rethinking the full step designation or at a minimum, adding an alternative that addresses a greater surface area of the coin. >>
There's no simple answer to this question. On the later coins the steps are usually about the last thing
to strike up so when they are present there's a good chance it's a very good strike. On earlier coins, es-
pecially those from the '50's this is much less true. Indeed, with some coins (like the '54-S) it nearly be-
comes an either/ or proposition.
Those who seek well struck coins learn to look at certain details first simply because they tend to make or
break a coin. With Jeffersons that tends to be the steps.
<< <i>The 1960-D is worth $20,000 or more with full steps ... or a few hundred dollars withOUT them.
Nothing wrong with that. Despite the many collectors on this thread who think I'm nuts (and a wife who agrees with them but is comfortable with my "foolishness"), I'll pay that premium in blink of the eyes, and have many times.
It's my money and if it makes me happy, who are you to tell me "no, here's a better way to spend your money"? Maybe a better way for you to spend my money, but if you don't mind I'd like to spend my money my own way.
Since I can't attend the coin show, I'll be represented by an agent who will carefully check out the '60-D and several other lovelies there. If the steps are there, you can be sure I'll be one of the final bidders with a paddle up. If the steps aren't there, adios Harry, that's waaaay too much for the plastic.
Best wishes,
Just Having Fun >>
You go Daddy-o!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
There's a middle ground everyone learns to play on. This includes the coin graders, dealers and collectors. No one starts at the same level as a season collector. It has taken me years to learn the patterns of strike charactoristics, surface conditions and eye appeal to many of these coins. Like they say, grading coins is not an exact science. For instance, there are varieties that are only known to collectors. But as time ages, some will come to light but for now everyone starts with steps and learns the rest along the way.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I have been at this for about 34 years... I am of the view that grading is an evolutionary process. If we look at the Red Books from the late 1940's and 1950's and the grades listed, it is clearly antiquated by what we see today. I understand that the full steps of Monticello is where we have traditionally started on the Jefferson series in terms of evaluating the strike... its just that I am not of the view it is the definitive standard by which all Jeffersons should be judged... partially because it is an unreasonable standard for the mediocre quality that was generally accepted by the US Mint. Further, the steps still are a very small part of the design and the surface of the coin and the structure of Monticello. I think there is room to consider alternative standards other than full steps for this series...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Seems like that #1 Registry set holder isn't the least bit affected by the concept of "pop 1", the quest for a "complete set of FS nickels" or "Registry fever".
Wondercoin
<< <i>"Since I can't attend the coin show, I'll be represented by an agent who will carefully check out the '60-D and several other lovelies there. If the steps are there, you can be sure I'll be one of the final bidders with a paddle up. If the steps aren't there, adios Harry, that's waaaay too much for the plastic."
Seems like that #1 Registry set holder isn't the least bit affected by the concept of "pop 1", the quest for a "complete set of FS nickels" or "Registry fever".
Wondercoin
But that's the reason for the popurarity of this nickel! Without it, a collection will lose money at auction.
This is one of those coins that separate the meticulous from the greedy.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Now for the real fun... full steps, whether 5, 5.5 or 6, basically require that the steps be uninterrupted by a nick or mark. On a coin that grades MS65 or perhaps 66, the nick may be small, and effects the steps, but does not effect the rest of the structure of Monticello... and if Monticello looks pretty attractive, why should that coin basically be written off because it does not have full steps? In fact, the strike may well be as good, if not better than a full steps example... this is just one of the concerns and issues I have with Full Steps being the only designation for this series... it is just not the most representative way of describing the state of preservation of the coin... >>
Another case of, "to each his own" and "hopefully, others will catch on!" I have several high quality coins in my collection that have a minor flaw with the steps! Whether it be a bridge, nick or struck-thru or the steps did not completely strike up. A COLLECTOR NEEDS TO EXAMINE THE ENTIRE COIN! And many new collectors are learning this. It's too much of a risk to buy overgraded certified coins and hold them. The window to move such coins is not that wide for this series.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
another example of misrepresenting the true fact of the matter through ignorance and placing the cart before the horse. collectors of Full Step Jefferson Nickels and their passionate attempts to assemble sets while forming the FSNC and meticulously counting quarters predates the grading services by a few decades. it no doubt took some lobbying by collectors to get the services to add the designation to the grade since it only started sometime around 1997, 10 years after the inception of PCGS, not your imagined scenario of PCGS inventing it to hype Registry Set collecting.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
I like the Jeffs, but didn't care for this coin, as rare as it is. It is low end 64 with a gouge on the cheek, and has been given a pretty good dipping. The coin is, however, full steps, although a barely makes it example, with a cut through the steps and fading of the 4th step under the second pillar. But, it was worth it to somebody, so congrats to the new owner. Enjoy!
Thank you Lucy for posting a picture of a proof nickel, yes we know what "full steps" means..
but let's see these awesome steps on the 60D that are worth so much money!
you'd think they'd be advertising a picture of the fabulous steps..
or is it the grading ticket and holder they're advertising??
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The highlight of this Jefferson Collection was the 1942D/D Jeff in PCGS-MS64FS which sold for $18,000 plus buyers fee. The 1960(d) nickel (the subject of the full page ad) sold for just $9,750 plus buyers fee, as compared to the near $32,000 (if I recall correctly) the same coin fetched the last time it sold last year (but, most of that $32,000 prior price level I believe was merely "chasing a consignor's reserve" anyway). I fully expected this to occur as nearly all of the very top collectors in this series today demand superb quality for the price and ARE INDEED buying the coin not the holder. There were a number of other wonderful coins in the collection as well, including a lovely true gem FS 1953(p), which is seldom seen.
Wondercoin.
Wondercoin.
<< <i>For $11000.00 the hell with full steps I'd want a escalator... >>
Generations of collectors have tried to figure out where these steps usually go at the bottom.
Perhaps the mystery is finally solved.
roadrunner
<< <i>The 60-D Jefferson went for $11,212.50, including the juice. Most of the bidding was internet and phone, as there were only two raises in the auction room. Too bad for the prior owner who took a $20k loss on the coin.
I like the Jeffs, but didn't care for this coin, as rare as it is. It is low end 64 with a gouge on the cheek, and has been given a pretty good dipping. The coin is, however, full steps, although a barely makes it example, with a cut through the steps and fading of the 4th step under the second pillar. But, it was worth it to somebody, so congrats to the new owner. Enjoy! >>
Did it sell with no reserve?
<< <i>Why not pursue that with PCGS and have them take care of their mistake. Isn't that what their guaranteen is about? Then you don't have to "eat" a $9,000 coin that you don't want. The market would be better with that as a non-full step coin and stricken from the pop reports. That's where part of our standard submission fee goes to.
roadrunner >>
Not sure the 60-D is a PCGS mistake, but rather a mistake of the collector. I think it is properly graded. Reminds you of the collector who bought the 53-S Franklin in 66FBL for $69k, then sold it a year later for about $35k. "Caveat emptor" when dealing with those pop top coins that may not all be there for most collectors. The 61-D may be more of a case. A more presentable 64 coin, but in my opinion not a FS coin, and it went for $8,050.
There were some nice coins in this collection. The 42-D/Horizontal D is a beautiful coin, pop.2. The 53-P in 65FS was similarly nice, and the 59-P in 66FS with a pop. of 10, was propoerly graded and nicely toned. At $1495, seemed like one of the better deals in the set. The 55-D in 65FS, pop 5, is nice and original and went for $7,475.
These coins have a better chance at sustaining their values at these levels than those even moreso relying on their steps to substantiate value, like the 60-D and 61-D. Either way, these were strong (record setting?) prices for Jefferson nickels and it will be interesting to watch where prices go from here.
Check out JHF's thread over on the Registry Forum. IMHO, the only "mistake" the collector made was not letting PCGS see the coin before he auctioned it off.
"The 42-D/Horizontal D is a beautiful coin, pop.2. The 53-P in 65FS was similarly nice,"
Agreed here. Don't be surprised to see a POP 1/0 42D/D 65FS and one less 64FS coming out of that coin. The 55(d) was also a very high end gem.
Wondercoin