Is "honest dealer" an oxymoron??
majorbigtime
Posts: 2,937 ✭
I don't think so, but I've caught some dealers in a boldface lie.
I suspect the biggest lie is "I paid $XXX for it". What the dealer paid is, IMO, not relevant anyway.
A similar comment concerns an overpriced coin, say a TPG MS63, and the dealer will say "I paid 64 money for it".
How about the classic coin show line "I have one back at the store, but didn't bring it to the show".
Similarily, "I just sold one yesterday"
Then there's the cleaned or doctored raw coin and the dealer sez "I see no reason why it won't slab at PCGS/NGC".
Or "I'll buy 'em back at that (selling) price all day long"
On the other hand, extreme honesty is almost unknown. How often have you heard a dealer say:
"The (TPG graded) coin is overgraded"
"I'm not certain it's genuine"
"It's been doctored"
"it's AT"
I suspect most dealers are basically honest, and won't tell outright lies. On the other hand, very few are into "full disclosure" and most won't volunteer info about the pimples and warts on their offerings.
These boards have been devoid of controversy for awhile, maybe this post will stirr a healthy debate.
What's your opinion?
I suspect the biggest lie is "I paid $XXX for it". What the dealer paid is, IMO, not relevant anyway.
A similar comment concerns an overpriced coin, say a TPG MS63, and the dealer will say "I paid 64 money for it".
How about the classic coin show line "I have one back at the store, but didn't bring it to the show".
Similarily, "I just sold one yesterday"
Then there's the cleaned or doctored raw coin and the dealer sez "I see no reason why it won't slab at PCGS/NGC".
Or "I'll buy 'em back at that (selling) price all day long"
On the other hand, extreme honesty is almost unknown. How often have you heard a dealer say:
"The (TPG graded) coin is overgraded"
"I'm not certain it's genuine"
"It's been doctored"
"it's AT"
I suspect most dealers are basically honest, and won't tell outright lies. On the other hand, very few are into "full disclosure" and most won't volunteer info about the pimples and warts on their offerings.
These boards have been devoid of controversy for awhile, maybe this post will stirr a healthy debate.
What's your opinion?
0
Comments
He will gladly show you receipts of what he paid for coins.
He will be the first to admit he needs to make 15% off of his
transactions.
talk about refreshingly honest. also please note I have never bought
a coin from him but he called me to discuss it!
some dealers are a joy. others, like you say, have no problem doing
whatever it takes to make a buck.
NoEbayAuctionsForNow
No one blames puppies and kittens for being puppies and kittens (except maybe when they pee on the floor).
Be aware of what you are dealing with, then smile and let their antics entertain you. Laugh silently, of course.
Even the most "honest" dealers (which I'll define simply here as someone who strives to make every transaction a fair and ethical one) are going to have difficult customers or just an honest difference of opinion about "proper remedies" for certain situations (knowing that a business has to draw the line somewhere with an unreasonable customer), so you'll hear just about "any" dealer called a scammer or a fraud now and then. Doesn't mean they are, of course.
advice like this is just what i need to hear when it comes to purchasing any coin for more than face value.
The really nice ones may have second personality to deal with the other dealers in order to survive. There is no "factory" for collectible coins. Every dealer has to go and find inventory, and that often times calls for a hard skin, and big league negotiating skills. There are often a dozen other dealers looking for that same inventory.
Everything is linear if plotted log-log with a fat magic marker
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<< <i>There are plenty of honest dealers. Even a few that look to take care of newbies and build relationships. However, there are just as many that are sharks and will look to scam newbies and push junk off on them while the newbies are wet behind the ears. The vast middle are dealers that may tell a story to negotiate a better price, or whose opinion shifts depending on which ax they are grinding (eg. these are hot to a would be buyer, these are cold to a would be seller). I think the majority of successful dealers are in this middle area. The really nice ones may have second personality to deal with the other dealers in order to survive. There is no "factory" for collectible coins. Every dealer has to go and find inventory, and that often times calls for a hard skin, and big league negotiating skills. There are often a dozen other dealers looking for that same inventory. >>
How true that is.
Buying coins just like buying anything else must be based on all the things that people have mentioned:
- Honesty (to some degree)
- Competence and knowledge
- Promptness
- Willingness to defend the coins he sells (what would he do if PCGS/NGC send a coin back as "cleaned"?)
- Price
As coin collecting is a matter of using one's discretional income (hopefully anyway) price can be important but only to a degree. Supply and Demand also are important as an MS64 1885-O Morgan will undoubtedly be available in much larger quantities than an MS64 1879-CC PCGS Morgan.Dealers will usually set their prices at what they think they can hope to get and not necessarily at what you or I would like to spend.
Honesty does not mean being overly candid. I would not trust a dealer or any other kind of merchant that offers the chance of checking his/her costs. Those costs are part of his/her business secrets. Why should he/she share such info with me?
Dealers are in business to earn a living (most of them). Let's avoid asking them for saintly behavior. Let's ask them for behavior that conforms to the points I listed above. Some dealers (I know many) will certainly fit. Others might not.
Collecting since the 1980's
Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes
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There is one dealer that I see frequently at the monthy Omaha shows that I believe to be one of the totally honest ones. He will usually mark on the holders any problems or authenticity concerns, and price accordingly. It if is not marked on the holder, if there is an issue with it.... he has always volunteered the info when I was interested in purchasing it. I have known this dealer for 15 years or so, and have never heard a bad word about him.
There ARE honest dealers... !
THERE....have at that for a while. Should get all "zen-y" or sumpin.
How about "honest dentist?"
("Hello Mr. topstuf, are you here for your cleaning? Well, well, well.....we're going to need X-rays...yessirree, X-rays it is.)
Tom
Jerry
A Coin Dealer that sells "honestly" must be robbing little old ladies to gain cheap material to sell at that "honest" price.
Does that mean everything else was a lie?
a seller is just trying to make soothing sounds while you're deciding and there's no rea-
sonable expectation that any of it would necessarily be truthful.
I have not set up at shows and instead walked my coins around the bourse and sold to dealers. Often I get the impression the guy is offering to pay me to fence a coin of dubious acquisition based on the offered price. Some guys are very honest and give good BUY prices for material. I have always respected John McIntosh in that way. BTW, he also has been fair with me on both sides of the transaction, as have been other dealers. Most of the established guys are honest with a wide range of pricing. But valuation is a bilateral contract. You buy, sell or trade based on what you both feel is fair or just don't do it.
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It is pretty hard to believe many dealers work on only 15%. Many HRC auction lots show up on some of the elite dealers inventories a week later, at 50% more asking price. A number of Ebay sellers also try this "auction lot plus 50%" routine, always good for a big laugh. A bigger laugh is when someone acutally buys the coin.
True, true, true
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
<< <i>This industry is like any other. We have all kinds involved, both good and bad. I have had personal dealings with both.
True, true, true >>
I agree with most of what has been pointed out here.
To take another view, look at it from a dealer's perspective.
What collector complains when they get a "rip" from a dealer?
Dealers are in what they hope to be a for-profit business- and I stress, business.
I cannot stand being outright lied to, otoh a dealer trying to put the best face possible on a deal I understand. Herein lies a fine line, which I believe all of us would like to be a bright line:
-No misrepresentation
-No attempts to force a sale
-An honest return/ credit policy
-A decent, respectful attitude (and that cuts both ways)
IMO it is none of my business what another person pays for their inventory. Information to that effect just goes to the entire mosaic of the transaction, but is not a factor useful to me in making a decision.
Tell me honestly what you have and what you want for it. I'll tell you what I'm willing to pay. If we meet somewhere in the middle, we have a deal. If we can't reach agreement, we move on - no hurt feelings, no bruised egos.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
There are many independent garages set up because the money-making opportunity is there.
One trick I have seen is where, on your first visit to an independent shop, you will get a delightfully low bill on your repair. On the subsequent visits, the bill is much higher.
What happened? The guy wanted to draw you in and then start socking it to you. You, being an ignorant sucker, have no choice but to believe in the guy. After all, didn't he treat you fair and square on the first visit?
I think Coin Dealers opporate the same way. There are certain tricks they employ to make good money buying and selling old Coins. One that would especially be to their benefit would be to treat you right when you first came to them. After sizing you up, they might not treat you as well, on any repeat business. But then, isn't that what "business" is all about?
<< <i>Is "honest dealer" an oxymoron?? >>
Without a doubt. Just as "Christian Businessman " is an oxymoron.
Having been on both sides of the coin for a while now, I can say that both dealers and collectors (especially collectors) tend to think in terms of absolutes. Like most things, it is impossible to think of all situations and dealers in the same light.
Some coins you buy strong, and mark up a little. Some you buy cheaper and mark up more. And yes, when you buy over the counter and you know there is no competition, there is no reason why you cant pay on the lower end of wholesale instead of the higher end. There is nothing wrong with that.
Most collectors have no idea how hard it is to find new material in this business. It is tough!! You have to make your money where you can. That doesnt mean you get to lie however or cheat people through dishonesty. I generally tell people that I mark my stuff up 20%. I bought a collection here in town the other day...I told him that I mark my stuff up and that I hope to make 20%. I have found if you explain that and explain your situation, collectors understand and can relate. If they relate then they can trust and that is how relationships are formed.
As far as someone tellling what they paid for the coin, I do that on occasion, especially when I have paid strong for a coin. In those situations I also tell them that I would buy it back at what I paid for the coin. Talk however is cheap. You will see who the real honest dealers are when you go to sell back six months later with no market movement. If they pay strong and honor their word, you can bet that they will support their own market.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com