How I should approach a Coin World dealer about 2 overgraded coins I just received?

Prethen · November 23, 2005 12:52AM

I just received 2 overgraded 3CN from JEL. Needless to say, I'm disappointed.

On one hand, they were accurately described over the phone as original, problem free, nice coins. This was true. He claimed one was an (1879) XF and the other an (1888) XF+. At best the 1879 is a nice VF25+ and the 1888 is a VF35. I paid $196 including shipping. I think I've overpaid by at least $25 and maybe more. Yes, it's not a ton of money, but I absolutely feel that I've been overcharged for what I've received.

I've bought from him before and I was satisfied with those purchases, although I would never say the coins were strong for the grade; I could say I paid a fair price for them.

I haven't called him (Jim) yet. What are your opinions on how I should approach this? When I've talked to Jim in the past, I've found he isn't much for conversation and I'm concerned that he'll be quite defensive. Perhaps I'm wrong. And, as usual, I always approach situations like this with "kid gloves".

Bruce

Wolf359 · November 23, 2005 12:57AM

If you aren't happy, why call him at all? Just return the coins with a nice note saying "These won't work for me".

topstuf · November 23, 2005 12:59AM

Well, I don't think I'd start out by telling him that you have posted the problem on the forum before talking to him.

Louis · November 23, 2005 1:00AM

Contact him and tell him exactly what you told us.

Prethen · November 23, 2005 1:00AM

<< If you aren't happy, why call him at all? Just return the coins with a nice note saying "These won't work for me". >>

That might seem like the simple answer, however I'd prefer to see if a better deal can be worked. I hate playing the postage game and I'll lose on both ends of that game. The other part of the answer is that these coins are relatively difficult to find in problem free shape in the nicer mid-circulated grades. I'd rather keep them if a deal can still be made.

Prethen · November 23, 2005 1:02AM

<< Well, I don't think I'd start out by telling him that you have posted the problem on the forum before talking to him.

>>

Oddly enough, one of the things that frustrates me about certain dealers is that they have no accessibility via the Internet...and he's one. I won't ding him for that, but at least it's unlikely he'll know about this forum unless someone else "snitches"!

coinguy1 · November 23, 2005 1:05AM

<< That might seem like the simple answer, however I'd prefer to see if a better deal can be worked >>

Bruce, that might make you look bad and/or call your credibility into question, regarding your reason for wanting to negotiate. Buy them, without complaining/negotiating, or return them. That will be better for you in the long run.

Coinhusker1 · November 23, 2005 1:06AM

What is his return policy?

Prethen · November 23, 2005 1:07AM

<< 

<< That might seem like the simple answer, however I'd prefer to see if a better deal can be worked >>

Bruce, that might make you look bad and/or call your credibility into question, regarding your reason for wanting to negotiate. Buy them, without complaining/negotiating, or return them. That will be better for you in the long run. >>

Sorry, Mark, I disagree with you 100% on this one (see my last PM to you). I strongly feel that as a "decent" dealer he should be willing to hear from more experienced collectors that are willing to disagree with (inaccurate) descriptions.

markglicker · November 23, 2005 1:07AM

I would call and indicate that you would like to return the coins, as you believe that they are not a very good value, at the price. That will give him an opportunity to perhaps offer a price adjustment, should he not, then return the coins, if that is an option.

supertooth · November 23, 2005 1:08AM

Bruce----I doubt there are very many CW dealers who actually grade correctly in their 'retail' business. So, if you feel the coins are not correctly graded, return them. He has a 10 day return priviledge. Tell him that the coins are overgraded. He already knows that but does not know weather you know it or not. This will establish that fact----if you return them. Another option would be to call him and, if you still like the coins----negotiate at that point a 'fair' reduction in price. If he balks at the offer, just return the coins. Plenty of guys to buy from out there. Bob [supertooth]

ziggy29 · November 23, 2005 1:08AM

<< The other part of the answer is that these coins are relatively difficult to find in problem free shape in the nicer mid-circulated grades. I'd rather keep them if a deal can still be made. >>

Which would seem to indicate that truly problem-free coins in this grade range are probably worth a premium over the typical schlock that's accurately graded in terms of wear. In that context, are you sure you overpaid? If these coins are of unusually high quality for the technical grade, maybe the price was fair even if the representation was optimistic.

I'd either keep the coins or return them. I wouldn't try to "negotiate" anything in this case. But that's just me personally.

coinguy1 · November 23, 2005 1:11AM

<< Sorry, Mark, I disagree with you 100% on this one (see my last PM to you). I strongly feel that as a "decent" dealer he should be willing to hear from more experienced collectors that are willing to disagree with (inaccurate) descriptions >>

Bruce, there is nothing wrong with letting him know how you feel about the coins. However, if you do that in conjunction with negotiating, your words will probably ring hollow. Return them and nicely let him know why you did so.

Edited to add: As a compromise, you could let him know you had considered making a counter-offer based upon the quality of the coins. However, you decided not to, because some idiot dealer on the forum told you the seller would probably doubt your veracity if you did so. Who knows, maybe he'll say "What do you want to pay?"

pharmer · November 23, 2005 1:15AM

<< Well, I don't think I'd start out by telling him that you have posted the problem on the forum before talking to him.

>>

No one expects The Forum Inquisition™

-------------------------

mgoodm3 · November 23, 2005 1:16AM

I agree with CG1 on this one.

mgoodm3 · November 23, 2005 1:17AM

<< 

<< Well, I don't think I'd start out by telling him that you have posted the problem on the forum before talking to him.

>>

No one expects The Forum Inquisition™

-------------------------

>>

TahoeDale · November 23, 2005 1:18AM

Bruce,

I'd think about how the overcharge($25 approx) compares to the difficulty in finding these dates in mid-circ grades.

Sure, the coins are not up to the grades described, but that happens with slabbed coins as well as raw.

I own several bust halves in holders that are 1 to 3 points too generous, but I have kept them because of the rarity and difficulty in finding better ones.

I also agree with Mark. Keep them, or return.

Prethen · November 23, 2005 1:18AM

<< 

<< Sorry, Mark, I disagree with you 100% on this one (see my last PM to you). I strongly feel that as a "decent" dealer he should be willing to hear from more experienced collectors that are willing to disagree with (inaccurate) descriptions >>

Bruce, there is nothing wrong with letting him know how you feel about the coins. However, if you do that in conjunction with negotiating, your words will probably ring hollow. Return them and nicely let him know why you did so.

Edited to add: As a compromise, you could let him know you had considered making a counter-offer based upon the quality of the coins. However, you decided not to, because some idiot dealer on the forum told you the seller would probably doubt your veracity if you did so. Who knows, maybe he'll say "What do you want to pay?"

>>

Now THAT I like! You're definitely not an idiot. Perhaps I can pin that label on a different dealer?

SDCollector · November 23, 2005 1:25AM

Seems like too much of a hassle over $25 or so.

I agree with those who say either return them or keep them. Personally I would keep the coins. If they're problem free, then the small premium you paid is worth it, IMO.

And as you probably already know, if you still want to negotiate a better price, then negotiate the price and not the grade.

BlindedByEgo · November 23, 2005 1:38AM

I would call him and and ask for return authorization for a refund.

When he asks you why, let him know that the coins didn't meet your expectation for the grade.

Then listen to HIS proposal - let him take the lead. He may offer a discount/ refund to avoid the return - or he may have another buyer for the coins...

But let HIM do the talking, and listen. It always goes over better letting people sell themselve on their own solutions, IMO.

ziggy29 · November 23, 2005 1:49AM

<< I would call him and and ask for return authorization for a refund.

When he asks you why, let him know that the coins didn't meet your expectation for the grade.

Then listen to HIS proposal - let him take the lead. He may offer a discount/ refund to avoid the return - or he may have another buyer for the coins...

But let HIM do the talking, and listen. It always goes over better letting people sell themselve on their own solutions, IMO. >>

If I liked the coins but thought I paid a little too much for them, I'd let them *offer* to bargain it down...but I wouldn't make that initial request.

Barry · November 23, 2005 1:51AM

Return the coins. I wouldn't try to negotiate a better deal based on the "true" grades. Mail order dealers count on postage costs and inertia for their rips. That's why they have been in business as long as they have.

I see JEL regularly at local shows. Sometimes he has reasonable prices, other times his prices are just absurd. Guess he tries to see what he can get away with. BTW, he has the foulest mouth I've ever heard at a coin show, and doesn't care if kids happen to be walking by his table while he's speaking Sailorese. He's as lowlife as dealers get, in my opinion.

291fifth · November 23, 2005 1:54AM

Always return overgraded coins for a refund. Many mail order dealers operate on the premise that 60% of the overgraded coins they send out won't be returned.

ziggy29 · November 23, 2005 3:29AM

<< Always return overgraded coins for a refund. >>

Even if you're still satisfied with them for the money?

If I pay Fine money for a coin advertised as XF and I get a problem-free VF that still fits well in my collection, should I return it? Yes, that's a pretty extreme example, but it's also a bit extreme to use the word "always" as you did.

Dismeguy · November 23, 2005 4:06AM

I don't worry about overgraded coins anymore. If I do not like the dimes immediately, then I just return them back to the dealer and request a refund. Trust your initial reaction to the coins and then move on quickly! If they are marginal now, I can guarantee you will still be unhappy with them in 6 months.

My typical reason for a return is "the coins just do not work for me". No other explanation is needed. I eat the postage and learn from the experience.

atarian · November 23, 2005 4:22AM

<< I would call him and and ask for return authorization for a refund.

When he asks you why, let him know that the coins didn't meet your expectation for the grade.

Then listen to HIS proposal - let him take the lead. He may offer a discount/ refund to avoid the return - or he may have another buyer for the coins...

But let HIM do the talking, and listen. It always goes over better letting people sell themselve on their own solutions, IMO. >>

I Agree with you . I would handle it this way

michael · November 23, 2005 5:06AM

great thread and many even greater replies!! and i am sure this threadf will help at least one person if not many new to the mail order raw coin game!!

this should be read by every collector new to ordering from coin world and numismatic news raw coin advertisers

quite informative!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the best thread on here in the last three weeks!!!

michael · November 23, 2005 5:07AM

oh and keep the coins bruce as they are fairly priced for what they are

if the 1879 is not porous then they are both keepers

as true xf xf 45 coins 1879 and 1888 three cent nicks with great eye appeal and surfaces would be 65% more than you are paying now

mozin · November 23, 2005 5:58AM

<< I don't worry about overgraded coins anymore. If I do not like the dimes immediately, then I just return them back to the dealer and request a refund. Trust your initial reaction to the coins and then move on quickly! If they are marginal now, I can guarantee you will still be unhappy with them in 6 months.

My typical reason for a return is "the coins just do not work for me". No other explanation is needed. I eat the postage and learn from the experience. >>

Forget bargaining with this dealer. He knows exactly what he is selling.

Prethen · November 25, 2005 8:53AM

Well, I decided on keeping both coins and not to call Jim at JEL about this. His grades were definitely what I would call "optimistic" which is the real reason for my disappointment. However, at the worst I overpaid by about 15% and at best I paid fair value. The coins are already sitting very happily in my Littleton album. Funny enough, I believe the 1879 is actually a circulated proof, but it's never been cleaned or messed with in any way.

I appreciate everyone's comments, especially the one's noting that Jim knows EXACTLY what he's selling. Very true. It's very common for dealers to be optimistic about a coin's grade. I just hate it when they do that for coins they sell sight unseen.

In the future, I'll still do business with JEL, but I have to keep in mind that the coins are likely overgraded by 1 or 2 steps when evaluating their pricing.

How I should approach a Coin World dealer about 2 overgraded coins I just received?

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