I had a trade that went foul....how would you handle it?

ajia · November 13, 2005 7:57AM

Since a similar topic was started in the B,S&T forum by someone else, I thought I would do the same here.
Except the pesons I traded with were not newbie's, but members highly regarded.
Here are 2 trades that went south & after a year I have to vent.....still deciding what to do in the case of the second deal......

In one trade, I traded PCGS graded coins for some raw ones & ones graded by other TPG to send in.
The graded ones crossed over, but the raw ones ALL graded 1 pt. lower than listed. With most it was a small decline in value.....but 1 had a drop of $200! There was an offer to replace the coin with another coin.....I refused (since I did not want any of the replacement coins offered).
I chalked it up to trusting sellers options of coins they are selling vs. PCGS' conservative grading.

The second trade involved a lot of my raw Morgans for a variety of raw/slabbed coins.
The deal was worth approx. $2,600.
The coins sent to this member arrived, no problems.
His package never arrived!
When told of this he said the package was only insured for $600!
He check with his P.O. who could track it to leaving Charlotte & that the local P.O. (Ventura) stating they never received it.
Well, after much waiting he agreed to send the coins back, but stated that he traded some of the 'lower priced ones'.
So the coins were sent back, minus 2 that had a combined 'value' of $350.
It has been nearly a year since this deal went down, 10 months since the ins. claim was made to the P.O. & 2 weeks since my last PM that was never responded to.
I am torn on what to do......I hate to play hardball, it wasn't his fault the P.O. messed this up, he's out a lot of money (more than I am), but then again he did not insure for the proper amount.

I guess if there is any question I would ask it would be if anyone knows the Statute of Limitation I have for filing a claim against someone? In this case the member in trade #2.

Wolf359 · November 13, 2005 8:00AM

Member #2 should be publically flogged. Who was it?

Russ · November 13, 2005 8:09AM

Number one falls in to the category of grading subjectivity and, frankly, you have nothing to complain about.

Number two owes you $350. The fact that he is "out a lot of money" is just too damned bad since he wanted to be a cheapass on the insurance.

Disclaimer: Both responses assume there isn't more to these scenarios.

Russ, NCNE

ldhair · November 13, 2005 8:21AM

Sounds like #2 owes you $350.

goose3 · November 13, 2005 8:22AM

agree with Russ and Larry.

It would seem that that B/S/T forum is turning into a problem zone as of late.

ajia · November 13, 2005 8:26AM

Russ,

That's what I figured too.....good of him to offer another coin to replace the downgraded one, but they did not interest me.
I will say this though, it left a sour taste & the deals with this member has, unfortunately, dwindled to none.

The second deal, well......again, does anyone one know the time limit to a legal claim in a matter such as this?

goose3 · November 13, 2005 8:30AM

it would probably differ by on a state by state basis would be my guess.

cho10 · November 13, 2005 8:34AM

<< Number one falls in to the category of grading subjectivity and, frankly, you have nothing to complain about. Number two owes you $350. The fact that he is "out a lot of money" is just too damned bad since he wanted to be a cheapass on the insurance. Disclaimer: Both responses assume there isn't more to these scenarios. >>

I sell a few coins from time to time on EBay and some people (here on the forum as well) have told me that I should not demand that all shipments be insured for the full amount.
I intend to continue to do that just as I insure anything I send to anybody and expect those that send coins to me to do the same.
The USPS is not 100% safe just as FedEx and others are not 100% safe.
Coins are worth money and the temptation must be strong for some of the people that transport them.
You should not be worried about asking for what is yours (if, as Russ said, there is not more to the scenario that we have been told).
You are entitled to your $350 and you should demand that money as rightfully yours.

stman · November 13, 2005 8:35AM

<< Number two owes you $350. The fact that he is "out a lot of money" is just too damned bad since he wanted to be a cheapass on the insurance. >>

I couldn't agree more. I been saying this for a LONG time about many folks (yes board members held in high regard) they are so friggin
cheap and either don't insure or insure for a small amount. Then people on here say "You got your coin, quit whining."

And it really gets me when it's a first transaction.... if they under-insure and something goes wrong, then I'll hear they've never had
problems before. Sorry this happened to you and please don't let this slide anymore. This is how board members "held in high regard"
continue to pull this crap. I'll let ya know how I really feel a bit later. Heh

halfnut · November 13, 2005 9:57AM

I saw the title and who wrote it and I was running to hide

, sorry to here about the bad trade's just glad our's went will.

topstuf · November 13, 2005 10:07AM

Many sellers insure for their COST. Well, that's swell IF the package arrives. But if it does NOT, then the buyer should receive either his money that he paid or the difference if it is a trade. It's called "making whole."
I would contact the seller ONE more time. Inform him that you ARE going to the postal inspectors (with all corroborating facts) and that this is your last contact prior to doing so. I think an inspector would say it was fraud as it was a TRADE and you received something you didn't want.....namely NOTHING.

He either owes you 350 or your coins back.

57cameonut · November 13, 2005 10:29AM

just slightly OT.

ebay sellers that dont offer insurance " Once the item is shipped,its not my problem"

Excuse me,if you collect payment via paypal and dont require proof of delivery you have about a 101% chance of having to refund the entire amout of purchase !

It is " YOUR PROBLEM"

ajia · November 13, 2005 2:11PM

I have been asked who #2 is, in all fairness to this member & to see what his side is I will let him know that I have created this thread & see if he want to respond.

There is always 2 sides to a story & he should be given the opportunity to respond.

I have been on the other side when a thread was created......fiasco....., where the poster started off strong, but after I had a chance to say my peace both side where heard.

I just want to be fair, but it's hard to see the other side......

100proof1957 · November 13, 2005 2:17PM

i have had some dealings with AJIA in the past.

absolutely no problems !

relayer · November 13, 2005 2:59PM

I think the most interesting observation is that ajia is out $550 in two transactions by dealing with "highly regarded" members of the CU BS&T Forum

The deal was for you to exchange $2,600 worth of coins. You've got to the point where you have $2,250 of your coins back and now he owes you $350. He hasn't paid you because either he doesn't want to, or he doesn't have the money, or both.

<< I guess if there is any question I would ask it would be if anyone knows the Statute of Limitation I have for filing a claim against someone? >>

It depends on for what?

For a criminal complaint ...
The postal inspector won't get involved against #2 since there was no mail fraud (just internal mail theft).
That leaves the Charlotte Police department. You can file a police report with them for theft and use it for a tax deduction, but unless you plan on flying out there to testify at a criminal trail, you won't get #2 charged with a crime.

For a civil matter...
Since this is basically a business dispute, in California you can file a civil suit (probably has to be done within 1 year, but you can call your local court). On the form you have to explain why the California Court is the correct jurisdiction to hear the case, and you can check the box that says "A breach of contract on merchandise to be delivered to California".

You can file and serve #2 by certified mail for like $35. He won't show up and you can get a default judgement.

Now you have a California Court order that says a guy in North Carolina has to pay you $350. You can spend more money trying to collect it in a North Carolina Court. So a year from now you'd probably still have the same chance of getting your $350 as you do now, which isn't very good.

Maybe you should only deal with Forum members on the BS&T forum that aren't so highly regarded

BlindedByEgo · November 13, 2005 3:02PM

IMO if a seller insures for less than the shipped/ paid value of the shipment, the seller is "self-insuring", and assumes all of the exposure. End of story.

raycyca · November 13, 2005 10:44PM

I am also currently having problems with a forum member for $325. He sent a coin, offered a refund. Got the coin, not close to "as advertised". Returned the coin and asked for a refund. Got an E-mail a few days after he got the coin and he was sending a second coin. VERY bad coin! I returned the coin and asked for a refund again. AGAIN, yet a third coin was "sent" in the mail. No insurance, No tracking number, etc. States he actually sent coin but can't prove it.
The other 2 coins were also sent via regular mail with nothing except regular $1.50 postage. How many times must we tell people AT LEAST use "delivery confirmation?!" I don't send $50 coins without insurance and or confirmation. I just received the most expensive coin I ever bought from a fellow member with ONLY delivery confirmation as always, and NEVER a problem!
This first fellow member has stated he will send yet another coin, BUT, I can sell it and get my $325 back. Time will tell! I won't divulge his name as I hope for a peaceful resoloution of this situation. This was a first time attempt with dealing with this member too. Another senior member has been helping me with tis situation. At least we can rely on most of the fellow board members. Ray

BAJJERFAN · November 13, 2005 11:10PM

I guess one shud do business only with those in the "circle of trust".

RYK · November 13, 2005 11:25PM

I guess one shud do business only with those in the "circle of trust".

Some have laughed at the notion, but it works for me.

joeyuk · November 13, 2005 11:31PM

First I have been selling some here and alot on e-bay lately and I always insure to the price the buyer paid and use delivery confirmation. My shipping is a flat rate and includes both because it protects the buyer and seller.

<< Now you have a California Court order that says a guy in North Carolina has to pay you $350. You can spend more money trying to collect it in a North Carolina Court. So a year from now you'd probably still have the same chance of getting your $350 as you do now, which isn't very good. >>

I do not know law but I have read whare once you receive a judgement agienst you a notation of a lein stays on their credit report and can jam you up. This could say delay a mortgage.

zeus135 · November 13, 2005 11:50PM

The #2 guy took the cheap way out when he decided the insurance value. His decision - his fault, he should pay, no other way about it.

As a semi-newbie here, I get nervous dealing with forum members from here. I feel much better dealing with eBay people, since I can at least see their history.

Don't get me wrong, in the several deals I've had with forum members, they couldn't have turned out better. I just hope my luck holds out.

I for one want to know who this #2 forum member is. I'm sure they have their side of this trade too.

ajia · November 14, 2005 12:48AM

I hate to keep you guys waiting......and oddly enough I got a PM from a fellow member who has had 2 trades, 1 with me & another with this same member!
I did not give a clue to who he was, & he gave hints to who he was talking about, but those clues fit him perfectly....
Don't know the details but the other trade didn't go so good.

Like I stated before, I have PM'ed him to see if he would like to respond......
Name will be announce tonight around 6pm Pacific....unless I miss my scheduled train....then around 7pm!

Thanks all.....

Augie

PS-Thanks Relayer, that's was I thought....better get off my a$$ if I want to follow up in a civil case....

RYK · November 14, 2005 12:51AM

Name will be announce tonight around 6pm Pacific....

Thanks, I will set my Tivo.

Keyrock · November 14, 2005 12:57AM

His problem should not be your problem. He needs to pony up some greenbacks.

Public flogging to follow.....

pharmer · November 14, 2005 1:19AM

No one expects The Forum Inquisition™

-------------------------

hiyosilver · November 14, 2005 1:27AM

<<No one expects The Forum Inquisition™>>

TUMUSS · November 14, 2005 1:34AM

MORGANHUNTER2 · November 14, 2005 3:17AM

I have dealt with augie on 2 separate deals- and I don't know if I am a member of the circle of trust, but Augie is tops in my book.

hiyosilver · November 14, 2005 3:18AM

Coinhusker1 · November 14, 2005 4:28AM

<< IMO if a seller insures for less than the shipped/ paid value of the shipment, the seller is "self-insuring", and assumes all of the exposure. End of story. >>

Bingo. It's OK to self-insure. In the long run, you may be better off.

However, prepared to pay a "claim" if you need to, and don't whine to the buyer -- it is the seller's problem, not the buyer's!

dthigpen · November 14, 2005 4:28AM

One word,

Hitman.

Fletcher · November 14, 2005 4:39AM

The previous statement that you had one year to file a civil dispute in California is incorrect. This is a standard breach of contract issue. Accordingly, you have up to three years within which to file your complaint. However, it will likely cost you more in legal fees than you will recover. Therefore, I suggest that you file a small claims complaint in your local court (usually $10) and see if you can find some cheap way to enforce the judgment (ie - let him know that you have a judgment and will have it placed on his credit report if he does not make you whole).

joeyuk · November 14, 2005 10:57AM

...tick...tick...tick...

goose3 · November 14, 2005 11:02AM

<< The previous statement that you had one year to file a civil dispute in California is incorrect. This is a standard breach of contract issue. Accordingly, you have up to three years within which to file your complaint. However, it will likely cost you more in legal fees than you will recover. Therefore, I suggest that you file a small claims complaint in your local court (usually $10) and see if you can find some cheap way to enforce the judgment (ie - let him know that you have a judgment and will have it placed on his credit report if he does not make you whole). >>

EXACTLY. and let that judgement follow him around until he finally decides to pay.

Now I am curious who the other member is that keeps sending out the coins to raycyca!!!!! Speak up Raycyca!!!!!!

also am curious why anyone might be so quick to assume this is not someone in this smoke and mirror thing called the circle jerk of trust. Sounds like it might be more appropriately named the CIRCLE OF MISTRUST.

ILikeDimes · November 14, 2005 11:07AM

3 for 3 on my dealings......put me in coach, I'm batting 1.000. Couple big ones in there too.

BTW....insurance is for the seller(or in this case, the person SENDING the coin, #2). He or she shorted himself/herself for a few bucks, that's not too bright.

pharmer · November 14, 2005 11:49AM

It will be interesting to see if the circle notion is the other casualty of this outing

-------------------------

ajia · November 14, 2005 12:08PM

OK, time to tell.....

But first let me say that this has made me look at myself & the dealings I've done here.
I do not consider myself perfect, I tend to say I will do things faster than I can realistally can.
I go to work at 5:30am to return between 6-7pm, and those are on good days!
My 'getting backto you' is slower than I would like.......and I understand when others get back to me later than they said they would, all of us....well, most of us have lives besides coins (maybe not Russ!)

But I have never cheated someone out of coins or money, the reputation here is something sacred, it allows members to send coins 'on approval' because there is trust, and to say that this member has broken that trust for something like this is hard to do. Hopefully none of you will be put in this position.

The member in deal #2 that went south is Louie.

I have all the PM's that went back & forth between us & I don't know if I should post them, there seem to be a difference of opinion on that, so if anyone is interested please PM me.

I am sure many of his trades (his passion) have gone smoothly, I am sorry this one did not.

PS-Going to dinner with my beautiful wife now & will return in a couple of hours.

relayer · November 14, 2005 12:15PM

<< The member in deal #2 that went south is Louie.

>>

WOW - Louie. I never would have guessed it would be Louie.

BTW - Who's Louie?

hiyosilver · November 14, 2005 12:22PM

<<The member in deal #2 that went south is Louie. >>

Auggie.......P.M. sent. I think we have something in common.

FatMan · November 14, 2005 12:30PM

<< 

<< The member in deal #2 that went south is Louie.

>>

WOW - Louie. I never would have guessed it would be Louie.

BTW - Who's Louie?

>>

My thoughts exactly.

BigD5 · November 14, 2005 12:32PM

The first deal sounds as if you accepted the coins from the trade, initially. If you didn't feel the coins were up to snuff, you should have nixed the deal right away. If the coins didn't work out at the grading services......it happens, and I wouldn't place the blame on your trading partner.

The second deal is a bit more troubling. You are owed some money, $350 is what it sounds like. I hope you get it back.

RYK · November 14, 2005 12:34PM

<<BTW - Who's Louie? >>

My thoughts exactly.

Me, three.

relayer · November 14, 2005 12:46PM

It appears Louie only visits the BST Forum

This seems to be what went wrong

MICHAELDIXON · November 14, 2005 1:17PM

It seems like Louie has had bad dealings with many of us on the boards! The first time I sent him something, it got lost in the mail. I chalked it up and ate the loss. He seems to have quite a bit get "lost in the mail." The second time I was going to trade with him and he sent me a bunch of damaged coins and I sent them all back! He had a Mercury dime listed as AU toned and it had been damaged in a fire! The last time I did a swap my partner was Louie. I waited to send until I received his swap. The coins were overgraded and the Barber half had rim nicks. I sent him an equal amount, as to what I would have sold his coins for and he wasn't happy. We reversed the swap. I've had many pm's about him and I ignore his posts. My advice to everybody is to stay away from him, regardless of whether he's in his 70's and forgetful. I'll probably be flamed for this post, but you better beware!

RYK · November 14, 2005 1:54PM

I seem to recall a similar problem with the subject of this thread a while back, and MDs conclusions and recommendations do not seem out of line.

ajia · November 14, 2005 2:06PM

BigD5,

You're probably right, I should not have mentioned deal #1, it was a sort of cleansing for me. I did chalk it up to differences of opinion between the seller & PCGS....it happens. I did not like the outcome & I lost some $$......and I needed to say something to someone & unfortunately you all where the 'someone'.
I DO fell better now, so flame away for me doing so....I'll still feel better than if I had said nothing.

As for Louie, maybe not as highly regarded as I thought.
I know he hangs out on the Trade, Swaps & Giveaways more than here or the B,S,&T forums.....and I am sure that one (some?) of you will let him know about this thread, so I will now wait to see what his response is before I say any more....

beep · November 14, 2005 2:31PM

I'd bet Louie is done on the board

Bad apple

hiyosilver · November 14, 2005 3:07PM

My 1st. try at a swap was with Louie..it did not go well.

I agree with MICHAELDIXON .

Good luck collecting on your loss auggie.

goose3 · November 14, 2005 7:24PM

This thread is not the FIrst about bad dealings with that member.. RYK is correct, there was another and it's been some time ago......long enough that fairly new people here would not know.

INXS · November 14, 2005 9:02PM

<< <<BTW - Who's Louie? >>

My thoughts exactly.

Me, three. >>

Me, four.

darktone · November 14, 2005 10:24PM

I have only seen a couple of posts by him but it seems like he is not to be trusted. The management should oust this guy because of these shady dealings.

I had a trade that went foul....how would you handle it?

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