Why do PCGS Saints command a premium over NGC Saints (from Pinnacle's Morse report)
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
In the Pinnacle Morse auction report, they make the following comment:
"For a number of reasons, PCGS Saints command a strong premium over NGC Saints. Some of these reasons are valid while others do not make sense to us. An example was the 1911 in MS66 that we bought in the Morse sale. We paid $21,850 for what we felt was a really nice coin for the grade. A PCGS MS66 example of this date in the Morse sale brought $34,500 and we did not think it was as nice as the coin we bought. Does the fact that it is in a PCGS holder make it worth a 50% premium? We would urge all buyers of Saints to buy the coin and not the holder as they may be missing out on some excellent coins at what seem like good values."
I agree that you should buy the coin and not the holder. I don't collect Saints, but when I was thinking of buying one just to have it, I was told by someone, "don't touch an NGC Saint with a 10 foot pole. You will NEVER be able to get rid of it at a price that even comes close to its true value." Therefore, ever since, when I occasionally look at Saints on a dealer's website, I first see if I like the coin. After it passes this test, I am frequently disappointed to see the coin sitting in the wrong slab.
Based on Pinnacle's comment above, it seems that there are some valid reasons for avoiding Saints in NGC holders. Does anyone have any comments on this? However, the Pinnacle comment also indicates that there are good values to be had in NGC Saints. Now I am even more confused than normal. Can someone sort this out for me?
"For a number of reasons, PCGS Saints command a strong premium over NGC Saints. Some of these reasons are valid while others do not make sense to us. An example was the 1911 in MS66 that we bought in the Morse sale. We paid $21,850 for what we felt was a really nice coin for the grade. A PCGS MS66 example of this date in the Morse sale brought $34,500 and we did not think it was as nice as the coin we bought. Does the fact that it is in a PCGS holder make it worth a 50% premium? We would urge all buyers of Saints to buy the coin and not the holder as they may be missing out on some excellent coins at what seem like good values."
I agree that you should buy the coin and not the holder. I don't collect Saints, but when I was thinking of buying one just to have it, I was told by someone, "don't touch an NGC Saint with a 10 foot pole. You will NEVER be able to get rid of it at a price that even comes close to its true value." Therefore, ever since, when I occasionally look at Saints on a dealer's website, I first see if I like the coin. After it passes this test, I am frequently disappointed to see the coin sitting in the wrong slab.
Based on Pinnacle's comment above, it seems that there are some valid reasons for avoiding Saints in NGC holders. Does anyone have any comments on this? However, the Pinnacle comment also indicates that there are good values to be had in NGC Saints. Now I am even more confused than normal. Can someone sort this out for me?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
1
Comments
Reading the above stirred me to relate my recent disappointment
with an NGC Saint. I purchased an MS64, NGC,common date, for my registry set. Cracked her out, sent her down. Returned the first time BB'd as "Altered Surfaces"... Stuck her into another flip, and back for a second look... (express, too!) Less than a week later, BB'd again for the same reason. I refuse to even look at another NGC Saint!
The above statement tells me that either the dealer is just a plastic broker, or has fools for customers that buy holders rather than coins.
In an ideal world, perhaps - but in the current market perhaps the statement is just 'realistic' and not ignorant or unknowledgeable.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I appreciate NGC coins but PREFER PCGS coins.....I have crossed many of my coins over.....
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
stereotypes about a grading company do not form over night.
$20 Saint Gaudens Registry Set
Substitute any pre-1950 coin you would like for the word "Saint", and I would agree with that statement.
The common date St. Gaudens $20 gold coins have tradtionally been very low mark-up items for dealers. Therefore a dealer cannot afford to spend very much money on getting them slabbed, and as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for.
For the collector who was a relitively inexpensive St. Gaudens $20 gold type coin, the best thing to do through a large number of MS-63 and 64 graded coins. Eventually you will find a "diamond in the rough" that is priced conservatively because of the grade. I would not pay any premium for a PCGS $20 Saint.
Here's a peice I bought a few years ago when I was working on my "expanded" gold type set. I'd had a 1908 No Motto Saint since I'd been in high school. This one filled the "with motto" slot. It is in an NGC MS-63 holder. I paid less than $400 for this coin.
Substitute any pre-1950 coin you would like for the word "Saint", and I would agree with that statement.
now, Robert, why would you put the pre-1950 limitation on it??? why not just assert that it's best to buy the coin and not the holder whatever the date might be??
For one reason only. NGC modern proof-70 and MS-70 coins seem to be so much more common than their PCGS counterparts, and I think that there is an element of luck in obtaining the 70 grade at PCGS such that I would not be comfortable buying an NGC-70 and having it cross to PCGS no matter how hard I (or expert eyes) studied the coin. I probably could have put pre-1980 or even pre-1990, but I did not bother to check when the epidemic of 70 grades at NGC began, and I wanted to be conservative. From what I hear, in many post 1950 areas, NGC can be as strict as PCGS--at least I hear Russ bemoaning it every now and then.
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>Speaking in generalities always falls apart... >>
Generally speaking, right?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I believe that HRH has stated once they decide to crack it out that if a problem is detected upon crackout it's on their dime. Of course, at 'cross at any grade' the grade might go down.
<< <i>You have to know how grade and have some courage to be a crack-out artist, Leo. >>
I've only done it once so that should tell you how intelligent I am!
But for most coins, I have let the pros do the crack'en. But you would think that there's some kind of
catch 22 going on if a collector hasn't learned otherwise. I guess I'm one of them.
And thank you too TDN.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I second. How about 100 foot pole.
> Reading the above stirred me to relate my recent disappointment with an NGC GOLD coin.
I am also suffering this now. I did not buy any NGC gold coin until recently. I got burn big time......
To me, no more NGC gold coins unless seller crosses it over for me first.
I also love them in the PCGS holder with the doily (doiley?) insert!!
They are both usually graded MS-61.
Even the real old NGC holder with the plain white insert/tag are great!
Laura: I usually find these in the dealers sandboxes!!!