True View™--Dahlonega Style (GRADED XF-40)

RYK · November 1, 2005 3:15AM

Phil/Darkhorse has photographed the first of a series of coins that I have sent to PCGS. He did a marvelous job with the photography (and was kind enough to host the photo until I get home tonight

).

This coin was sent in by itself as a regrade, and the coin was originally in a green label XF-40 holder. I graded the coin lock XF-45, possible 50. It was purchased in the Heritage 2005 FUN sale and is a coin from the Cincinnati Collection. Feel free to guess the grade. (The slab number is not yet active.)

sellsatan · November 1, 2005 3:17AM

I'm not very experienced with gold, but sure looks like a 45+ to me.

1jester · November 1, 2005 3:20AM

Looks 45+ to me too, but I'll guess 50. Nice luster!

messydesk · November 1, 2005 4:07AM

I'm with you. 45. Of course, you wouldn't have posted this if that were the right answer.

mercurydimeguy · November 1, 2005 4:10AM

AU55

tjkillian · November 1, 2005 4:16AM

Looks XF-40 to me, and it looks original.

Great picture, Congratulations!

Tom

Numismanic · November 1, 2005 4:19AM

AU-50, very nice!

FatMan · November 1, 2005 4:29AM

I grade it AU50, only cause I can't really read the luster in the pic. The strike is typically soft in the center for this date so what many of you are seeing as wear is not. Tough date to grade for that exact reason. I hope someone at PCGS knows about the striking characteristics of the date, or it just might come back as a 40.

RYK · November 1, 2005 5:43AM

I'm with you. 45. Of course, you wouldn't have posted this if that were the right answer.

I do not know the answer yet myself.

I grade it AU50, only cause I can't really read the luster in the pic.

There is quite a bit of natural luster, more than you would expect for the detail.

I showed the coin to Coinguy a couple of weeks ago, and he said, "This is an AU coin." I think it was one of the few coins I showed him that heiked. Worn, crusty southern gold is obviously not his thing.

I will post the grading results here when I get them.

fivecents · November 1, 2005 5:58AM

I'll say it regraded an AU53.......................at least.

CarsonCityGold · November 1, 2005 6:23AM

Solid 40 + or a low end 45. Weak strike considered - it just looks like too much wear for a 50. Not enough detail in the curl on the neck and detail in the hair on the obverse. Eagles neck and shield detail on the reverse are too worn. We can all argue weak strike VS wear till the cows come home and never solve that issue. It still a great coin ! - just not a 50 IMO. Is the prize that we get this coin??

jcping · November 1, 2005 6:29AM

AU55 because of D-mint.

fivecents · November 1, 2005 6:31AM

You just can't grade Dahlonega gold on the same scale as other gold coins. I'll stick with my AU53 grade.

RYK...your half eagle has real "pop" and eye appeal.

Dennis88 · November 1, 2005 6:42AM

XF-45 would be the best for this coin. I think the strike is above average for this Dahlonega coin, except the lower left stars on the obverse and some parts of the eagle. Some lustre is still present in the deeper fields, but not enough for the AU-grade. The wear is even on both the obverse and reverse, tough it looks like the obverse is somewhat more weared down than the reverse.

Overall opinion: I like the coin, especially the color. Tough IMHO a few light scratches on the obverse knocks down the eye appeal for a trained eye....

Dennis

tradedollarnut · November 1, 2005 6:48AM

53

relayer · November 1, 2005 6:48AM

Great coin and picture

I'd say 45, but that's going against coinguy1

1jester · November 1, 2005 6:49AM

I think the coin has very little wear on it. There's way too much luster in the fields, accompanied by a serious lack of contact marks. I'll stick with a 50.

PS: Nice assessment, Dennis! You're quite the experienced expert now!

cosmicdebris · November 1, 2005 6:52AM

40 to 45

LeeG · November 1, 2005 6:55AM

Very nice coin regardless of grade. Looks like it has the Lustre for an AU grade but maybe too much rub for an AU? Great pic too.

FatMan · November 1, 2005 7:00AM

When I suggest a weak strike for a Dahlonega piece, you can't think in terms of a typical weak strike. Think in terms of horrible. Here is the highest graded 55-D $5 by PCGS. MS63. In a recent heritage auction the strike was described as follows:"This piece has some weakness in the centers but is still much sharper than usually encountered."

RYK's coin is AU for sure.

291fifth · November 1, 2005 7:04AM

XF40 is the correct grade but I'll bet it is now in XF45 plastic.

mercurydimeguy · November 1, 2005 7:08AM

RYK, just remember that I was the first guy to say AU55...if I guess the grade, will I win a prize?

Like a number of others have commented, one would really need to know the series to know how to grade this coin.

Most I've seen were...well....TERRIBLE!

Your coin, however, is not terrible. It's actually quite nice.

I can see if people have never seen this type of an example, but have only seen say 1900 or 1901 examples might call your 55-D coin XF, though.

CarsonCityGold · November 1, 2005 7:21AM

I examined the images in Heritage's auction #360, January of 2005, Lots 8806 (PCGS XF40) and 9023 (NGC VF30) - both 1855 Large D , plus the other 1855 D's in various grades on the Heritage site, to help in grading this coin. I'll stand by 40 + or - 45. Technically a 40 but gets a boost for eye appeal to 45.

FatMan · November 1, 2005 7:47AM

<< I examined the images in Heritage's auction #360, January of 2005, Lots 8806 (PCGS XF40) >>

That is RYK's coin. You just compared it against itself.

RYK · November 1, 2005 7:47AM

I am very impressed by the debate over the grade of this coin, which is indicative of the difficulty pros and amateurs alike have in grading Dahlonega gold. If this were a Philly half eagle, the detail of the coin would be worthy of a 40, maybe a 45, but the luster would be noticeably strong and out of proportion to the detail.

Bottom line:
1. I will not lose sleep if PCGS assigns a 40 grade, and I will not be doing cartwheels if I get a 55.
2. An informed buyer of Dahlonega gold will pay what the coin is worth.

Longacre · November 1, 2005 7:48AM

Incredible picture. I am torn between XF45+++ and AU-50. It could totally go either way. If I had to guess, I would say it's AU-50.

CarsonCityGold · November 1, 2005 8:04AM

<< That is RYK's coin. You just compared it against itself. >>

Yes, I know that. They are obviously different images and the same coin will look differently under different conditions. I also stated:

<< and 9023 (NGC VF30) - both 1855 Large D , plus the other 1855 D's in various grades on the Heritage site, to help in grading this coin. >>

Just trying to help educate myself by comparing.

CoinAddict · November 1, 2005 8:43AM

Very nice coin.

Reece · November 1, 2005 9:12AM

I grade the coin AU47 1/2 and it is a very nice coin, strong star detail!! Boy I hope we dont go to a 100 point grading system

BlindedByEgo · November 1, 2005 9:17AM

I'll put my money on AU50 plastic.

Bottom line is someone'll buy the coin, not the grade (that is, if it ever comes up for sale again

)

MikeInFL · November 1, 2005 9:23AM

XF 45 if you sent it in raw.
XF 40 if you sent it in the OGH...Mike

robertpr · November 1, 2005 9:27AM

Excellent pictures, and I know how difficult gold is to image. Kudos to Phil on this one!

Now, striking issues aside, there is just too much rub on this coin to call it an AU example, in my ever-so-humble opinion. The lustre has been molested in the fields though not in the areas that are protected by the devices. If the fields remained lustrous and the rub was only evident on the devices then I could see how some would state the coin to be AU (though not me) but this is not the case with this example.

I grade the piece XF-40 based on the images (with the usual caveats, you can't grade from pictures, blah blah blah) and honestly I wouldn't be shocked if PCGS in their ever-present tightness dropped this coin into a 35 holder (though that would be too strict!)

tradedollarnut · November 1, 2005 9:31AM

The lustre has been molested in the fields though not in the areas that are protected by the devices. If the fields remained lustrous and the rub was only evident on the devices then I could see how some would state the coin to be AU (though not me) but this is not the case with this example.

Uhm - have you seen what passes for AU50 these days?

ER · November 1, 2005 9:31AM

My grade 45
PCGS 55

coinkat · November 1, 2005 9:31AM

It is attractive in every sense of the word and with a coin like this, the grade is really secondary. Grading no motto gold is tough and this coin exemplifies the difficulty of Dahlonega Gold. I think it is a 45 all day long with a long shot at 50. With this date, the focus should be on the lustre and the strike is secondary.

ms70 · November 1, 2005 9:47AM

From that pic I would grade it AU53.

mrcommem · November 1, 2005 9:48AM

Dahlonege half eagle from 1855 are usually very weakly struck in the centers both obverse and reverse. I am going to stick my neck out and grade this coins at AU53. The luster looks good and minimal marks on this specimen

ormandh · November 1, 2005 9:56AM

AU50. The reverse, I think, really looks a lot better than the obverse. Very nice coin. I would have no problem with that one in my collection.

-Dan

robertpr · November 1, 2005 10:21AM

<< XF50. The reverse, I think, really looks a lot better than the obverse. Very nice coin. I would have no problem with that one in my collection.

-Dan >>

I agree, the reverse does look a lot worse than the obverse - the center of the obverse does not exhibit rub, it is merely weak strike. Unfortunately for this coin, the obverse is more heavily weighted than the reverse when grading the coin.

coinlieutenant · November 1, 2005 10:39AM

I think the coin is killer and would grade it 50 or 53...

fc · November 1, 2005 11:19AM

au48

fivecents · November 1, 2005 1:22PM

What's the grade already??

michael · November 1, 2005 1:43PM

45++++++ very vhoice xf/au

Dennis88 · November 2, 2005 12:33AM

<< When I suggest a weak strike for a Dahlonega piece, you can't think in terms of a typical weak strike. Think in terms of horrible. Here is the highest graded 55-D $5 by PCGS. MS63. In a recent heritage auction the strike was described as follows:"This piece has some weakness in the centers but is still much sharper than usually encountered."

RYK's coin is AU for sure. >>

I don't agree with you. When comparing RYK's and Heritage coins, I come to the following conclusions:

-Ryk's coin definately has wear
-Heritage coin has no wear, but a weak strike especially in the centers (as noted)
-The strike on Ryk's definately isn't the best (note stars 1 and 2, but get's better at stars 3-10)
-Heritage's coin has all of his lustre intact, as can be seen clearly in the image
-Ryk's coin definately has less lustre as seen in the image around the stars and the deeper fields around the head, where the lustre still is intact.
-At the places where the coin is somewhat weared down, the color is much darker (as always on weared gold coins). Would this also be a weak strike, but much less wear, the color would be more even. The obverse has this more than the reverse, where especially the AMERICA part is weared and thus darker.

Dennis

RYK · November 2, 2005 12:37AM

What's the grade already??

I have not yet received the grade.

At a future Southern Gold Society meeting, it would be interesting to have collectors bring some typical, recently-graded coins with them. The slab inserts could be masked, the slabs passed around, and the attendees given a grade sheet, which they fill out with their grading impression for 20 or so coins. Perhaps, we could even have representation from PCGS and/or NGC at such an event. I am going to see if I can organize this.

Edited:

The image is now hosted by PCGS, as well, in smaller form:

Reece · November 2, 2005 1:38AM

Great idea RYK!! I hope that I can attend.!!

FatMan · November 2, 2005 2:56AM

<< RYK's coin is AU for sure. >>

<< I don't agree with you. When comparing RYK's and Heritage coins, I come to the following conclusions:

-Ryk's coin definately has wear >>

I agree. But are you suggesting that an AU can't have wear? You may want to review the PCGS Grading Standards.

<< Heritage coin has no wear, but a weak strike especially in the centers (as noted) -The strike on Ryk's definately isn't the best (note stars 1 and 2, but get's better at stars 3-10) >>

The Heritage coin is graded MS63, one of the finest known examples of this date. It should not show any wear at all. I used the Heritage coin to demonstrate how poor the strike is on this date. It is considered better struck for the date, therefore it should be no surprise that RYK's example is even weaker. Again, what many here have perceived as wear, is not. It is the very weak strike of this date.

<< -Heritage's coin has all of his lustre intact, as can be seen clearly in the image -Ryk's coin definately has less lustre as seen in the image around the stars and the deeper fields around the head, where the lustre still is intact. >>

Again, the Heritage coin is MS63 and should have the full luster intact. You may have me on this one cause I am not clever enough to really assess luster from a pic. I need to have the coin in hand and move it around to see luster. I've taken enough pics in my life to know what I see in a pic to read luster is easily altered by adjusting the lighting. So I will use RYK's and Coinguy1's opinions for the luster. After all, they both have held the coin in hand. But I must ask, are you suggesting an AU coin should have full luster? I don't think that is a requirement of an AU grade.

<< -At the places where the coin is somewhat weared down, the color is much darker (as always on weared gold coins). Would this also be a weak strike, but much less wear, the color would be more even. The obverse has this more than the reverse, where especially the AMERICA part is weared and thus darker. Dennis >>

As I wrote above, I agree there is some wear on this coin. And you are absolutely correct that the darkening of the higher points are an indication that some wear is present. But the wear I see is consistent with a 50 -53 grade.

On any given day RYK's coin could come back from PCGS graded anywhere from XF45-AU53 IMO. But when it comes to Dahlonega gold the grading standards at the TPGs are a moving target. However I don't believe this coin will ever see a XF40 holder again based upon what I have been told regarding the luster.

This has been a very interesting thread with very diverse opinions. I do like the idea of RYK's exercise at a Southern Gold Society meeting. That would be quite a discussion, especially if we could get one of the Top Tier TPGs to participate.

1jester · November 2, 2005 3:21AM

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd wager that were it not for the typically weak strike of the Heritage coin, it'd be sitting in at least a 65 slab; that coin is phenomenal, especially with regards to its luster and lack of marks.

Although I've guessed 50 for RYK's coin, I wouldn't be surprised by a 53 or even 55. The high points show some rubbing, but that's about the extent of it. The luster, although not completely ascertainable by looking at a picture, can be guessed to be extremely strong and nearly full, judging by the changes in appearance between the legends and in most of the fields. The pictures clearly show the differences in color, which in my estimation correspond to luster nearly all over the fields of this coin.

Dennis88 · November 2, 2005 3:42AM

Well now I've read the whole thread again (and now awake without beer

) I have to change my point of view of this coin:

-For a circulated Dahlonega coin, it looks great
-From the image, it looks like the coin is somewhat dull. But when reading RYK's posts, it will look better in reallive
-From the image, I still grade it EF-45
-With RYK's and Mark's opinion, I grade it AU-50+ AU-53-

Dennis

Dennis88 · November 2, 2005 3:44AM

Oh and one more thing. You guys see Dahlonega and own Dahlonega coins in reallive. I only study them, and my collection of Dahlonega coins is pictured in auction catalogs and my computer. In fact, I've never seen a Dahlonega gold coin in reallive

I think I will stick somewhat more with patterns, they are at least easy!!!

Dennis

CarsonCityGold · November 2, 2005 5:05AM

I'm staying at 40+, -45. Good Luck.

True View™--Dahlonega Style (GRADED XF-40)

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