Market perception of PGCS and NGC?

JDelage · October 31, 2005 2:54AM

Hi,

Is there a difference in how the market perceives gradings by those two companies, and what is it?

(Note that here I am not asking whether this perception is accurate - that's a different question.)

Thanks,

JD

Russ · October 31, 2005 3:02AM

The market perception is that PCGS grades more strictly.

Russ, NCNE

UncleJoe · October 31, 2005 3:06AM

Given the same type of coin given the same grade by PCGS and NGC, more often than not the PCGS coin will sell for more money.

Joe.

JDelage · October 31, 2005 3:09AM

Thank you - that's the perception I got reading things here and there.

vega1 · October 31, 2005 3:10AM

The perceptions also depend to some extent on the type of coin (gold, modern, proof, as well as specific series). In some cases one company or another may have the perception of being stricter or better at attribution.

mercurydimeguy · October 31, 2005 3:10AM

<< Given the same type of coin given the same grade by PCGS and NGC, more often than not the PCGS coin will sell for more money.

Joe. >>

This goes back to the the sight unseen thread...your answer is true in a sight unseen market (internet, mail/fax bid, eBay, etc.). In a sight seen market (coin shows, dealer shops, etc.), there tends to be less price difference for comparable coins. Having said that, PCGS and NGC coins aren't always comparable and thus PCGS sells for more $$.

RYK · October 31, 2005 3:14AM

<< Given the same type of coin given the same grade by PCGS and NGC, more often than not the PCGS coin will sell for more money.
Joe. >>

This goes back to the the sight unseen thread...your answer is true in a sight unseen market (internet, mail/fax bid, eBay, etc.).

Coinguy1 debunked that myth several months ago in another thread.

The way I state the difference is as follows:

On average, PCGS is more strict than NGC in my areas of interest, but for an individual coin, you need to look at the coin and decide whether the grade is correct. PCGS may be more likely to holder problem coins, without disclosing the problems, while net grading the coin.

FatMan · October 31, 2005 4:05AM

Hi JD

Welcome to our little forum.

You hit the nail on the head with "perception". In my mind there is a difference of about a quarter point in overall grading standards between the two. Is that fact? Heck no. But it is my perception so that makes it true to me. I can't help myself from scrutinizing a coin in an NGC slab just a bit more than when holdered by PCGS. But for me, its really about buying the coin, not the slab anyway.

I think your question is even more relevent when looking at coins in middle and lower tier slabs. Through our pre-conceived perceptions of those companies it makes it even harder for us to accept when the coin is properly holdered. Some of us simply can never accept the fact and often pass on very nice coins.

UncleJoe · October 31, 2005 4:14AM

Coinguy1 debunked that myth several months ago in another thread.

Well, he's entitled to his opinion too.

With all due respect, I don't believe he debunked that "myth". While I certainly have not observed or dealt with enough coins to be close to statistical validity, I will tell you from personal experience and many more observations: Given the same type of coin given the same grade by PCGS and NGC, more often than not the PCGS coin will sell for more money.

What I believe coinguy1 was saying was based on overall profit. All I'm saying is that the PCGS will tend to sell for more money (which doesn't necessarily translate into making more money).

Joe.

RYK · October 31, 2005 4:22AM

Coinguy1 offered the sight-unseen CDN bid for MS-63 Saints (or something like that) as proof. At that time, the bid for NGC Saints was $25 more than the bid for PCGS Saints. Myth debunked!

Russ · October 31, 2005 4:28AM

<< At that time, the bid for NGC Saints was $25 more than the bid for PCGS Saints. Myth debunked! >>

One coin type does not a myth debunk.

I could fill this thread with example after example of PCGS coins bringing more than the NGC counterpart - in some cases, multiples more. On balance, the market does afford higher values to PCGS graded coins. Frankly, it's a little silly to try and argue otherwise.

Russ, NCNE

JDelage · October 31, 2005 4:30AM

Maybe there's a business buying NGC-slabed coins and get them re-graded by PCGS...

Myqqy · October 31, 2005 4:36AM

Maybe there's a business buying NGC-slabed coins and get them re-graded by PCGS...

Good luck with that!

mercurydimeguy · October 31, 2005 4:41AM

<< Maybe there's a business buying NGC-slabed coins and get them re-graded by PCGS... >>

BigD5 · October 31, 2005 4:54AM

Or maybe there's a business buying those "stricter" graded PCGS slabbed coins, and getting them upgraded at the "looser" NGC slabbing facility.

Sounds easy enough with all this "PCGS is stricter" thinking, no?

Oh yeah, to answer your question, the market perception in almost all categories is that PCGS is stricter than NGC.

57cameonut · October 31, 2005 4:55AM

i have raised this numerous times !

the reality is, PCGS coins generally bring mo money !

the other reality is,ignore the PCGS price guide !

coinguy1 · October 31, 2005 4:58AM

Here is one of the comments I made, following the quote below from a forum member:

<< Then if this is true than most of you must believe that buying coins with pcgs is the way to go, because the NGC coins are being graded too loosely, thats why they are selling at consitently lower prices >>

<<There are many great coins in both PCGS and NGC holders. There are also many (shall we say) not so great ones in both company's holders.

I have seen the identical coin sell at different times (in an NGC holder and then later in a PCGS holder) for greatly different amounts, because of a bias for the PCGS holder/plastic, due to things such as preferences among registry Set collectors, etc. Identical coin, different holders, different prices. That certainly doesn't show that NGC graded the coin more loosely/liberally.

A PCGS coin will often bring more than an NGC coin when you sell it. But, the PCGS coin will also COST you more than the NGC coin when you buy it. So, you can do as well or better with an NGC coin, even if it "sells" for less.

I love it when I can buy a nice NGC coin for a discount from what the same coin would bring in a PCGS holder, whether I choose to try to get it into a PCGS holder or not.

>>

Also, here is a thread in which I discussed this topic at length: Link

Fairlaneman · October 31, 2005 4:58AM

<< The perceptions also depend to some extent on the type of coin (gold, modern, proof, as well as specific series). In some cases one company or another may have the perception of being stricter or better at attribution. >>

The above is the answer.

Ken

UncleJoe · October 31, 2005 5:15AM

I did a search for Gold Saints and it appears that there were a lot of 1924's so I further searched for completed sales (not bids, actual sales) of 1924 Saints in PCGS MS63 and NGC MS63. Here are the results:

PCGS sales: 676,700,705,710,727,746,760,810
8 coins for an average sale price of: $729.25

NGC sales: 616,630,657,666,669,672,675,685,690,699,700,750
12 coins for an average sale price of: $675.75

Anyone can check the above and I would suggest that this would be the case most of the time for any series. Will there be exceptions? Absolutely, but overall PCGS will bring more moneyt than NGC.

Joe.

ILikeDimes · October 31, 2005 5:50AM

<< I did a search for Gold Saints and it appears that there were a lot of 1924's so I further searched for completed sales (not bids, actual sales) of 1924 Saints in PCGS MS63 and NGC MS63. Here are the results:

PCGS sales: 676,700,705,710,727,746,760,810
8 coins for an average sale price of: $729.25

NGC sales: 616,630,657,666,669,672,675,685,690,699,700,750
12 coins for an average sale price of: $675.75

Anyone can check the above and I would suggest that this would be the case most of the time for any series. Will there be exceptions? Absolutely, but overall PCGS will bring more moneyt than NGC.

Joe. >>

Yeah, and 4 out of 5 dentists choose Trident.................there are 15000 Ngc and Pcgs US coins and you're going to use 20 coins to validate your point?..................

UncleJoe · October 31, 2005 6:01AM

there are 15000 Ngc and Pcgs US coins and you're going to use 20 coins to validate your point?..................

All I did was use RYK's reference to MS63 Saints. I did a quick search and posted the results. These results are not unusual to me and not unusual to others who follow such things. I would suggest you try your own search for whatever series and grade you choose and see what kind of results you get.

I know for a fact, that I sell PCGS coins on average for more money than NGC coins of the same type and grade. Not all the time, but much more often than not. That is the point and I believe the empirical data bears this out.

Joe.

Edit: Spelling

Russ · October 31, 2005 6:15AM

<< Yeah, and 4 out of 5 dentists choose Trident.................there are 15000 Ngc and Pcgs US coins and you're going to use 20 coins to validate your point?.................. >>

I wonder how many of those who like to argue the point are regularly selling PCGS and NGC holdered coins in the current market.

Russ, NCNE

ILikeDimes · October 31, 2005 6:15AM

Well, I do agree with you in general. All I'm saying is that it's a small amount of data to base an opinion on, hence the 4 out of 5 dentist reference.

19Lyds · October 31, 2005 6:18AM

<< Maybe there's a business buying NGC-slabed coins and get them re-graded by PCGS... >>

Thats one business with a 50/50 chance of succeeding. They would more than likely not crossover so you'd have to crack and resubmit but only if you felt it was warranted. IMO.

ILikeDimes · October 31, 2005 6:21AM

The original question was perception. By the 20 coin validation you could be sending the wrong perception, especially if this person asking is new to the hobby. And I don't need to sell NGC and PCGS coins to figure this out. But, I didn't ask the question.

coinguy1 · October 31, 2005 6:26AM

On the subject of Saints - here are the curent high sight-unseen and sight-seen bids for PCGS and NGC Saints graded MS63-65 - please note, these bids are often posted by some of THE largest and most active wholesalers:

PCGS MS63 sight-unseen $585, PCGS MS63 sight-seen $655
NGC MS63 sight-unseen $585, NGC MS63 sight-seen $655
PCGS MS64 sight-unseen $650, PCGS MS64 sight-seen $765
NGC MS64 sight-unseen $650, NGC MS64 sight-seen $765
PCGS MS65 sight-unseen $1000, PCGS MS65 sight-seen $1260
NGC MS65 sight-unseen $1000, NGC MS65 sight-seen $1260

UncleJoe · October 31, 2005 6:27AM

The original question was perception

What is your "perception"?

Joe.

RYK · October 31, 2005 6:28AM

Yes, Mark, that was the data that I was referring to when I said,

Coinguy1 offered the sight-unseen CDN bid for MS-63 Saints (or something like that) as proof. At that time, the bid for NGC Saints was $25 more than the bid for PCGS Saints. Myth debunked!

ILikeDimes · October 31, 2005 6:30AM

MY perception is PCGS brings better money, but, once again, I did not ask the question. For a new collector (possibly the person who asked), it could be misleading. That is my only point.

RYK · October 31, 2005 6:30AM

For a new collector, I would look at all coins in all holders (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and ICG). I would also find a dealer-mentor or fellow collector-mentor to help you sort through these murky fundamental issues.

keets · October 31, 2005 6:32AM

there's a simple way to answer this intriguing question for yourself, and it has nothing to do with watching any "auction" site, watching any "sheet" prices, paying attention to any specific coins in any number of different holders, etc. etc. etc. etc.............................that will only end in futility and endless arguements or biases that can be twisted to prove points-of view. there's a much simpler method that entail some footwork, footwork that many collectors are unwilling to do in lieu of someone else giving them an answer. just go to as many shows as you can and look at as mant PCGS/NGC coins as you can. what i've found by doing that is this:

if i walk around a show and look at coins still in the cases, certain ones will stick out and beg for closer observation. i notice that when i look at them closer in hand, the number on the insert of the NGC coins will tend to dissappoint me more often than the number on the insert of the PCGS coins. all pricing relative to the grade doesn't even come into play. why would i buy a coin i judge as inferior just because i can get a good price???

we must each conduct this little experiment for ourselves. please post your findings.

shame on CoinGuy1 for trying to answer this question with pricing for Widgets.

Russ · October 31, 2005 6:32AM

Mark,

There are two problems with that. First is that you're talking about generic gold in a hot gold market. Second is that you're looking at inside numbers in dealer trading. You know as well as anyone that out in the real retail world, as an average PCGS brings more than NGC for same graded material.

Russ, NCNE

UncleJoe · October 31, 2005 6:37AM

bids for PCGS and NGC Saints

We now have to define "market".

Market for my response means what the coins sell for on the open "market" to the average Joe.

Joe.

keets · October 31, 2005 6:53AM

<< Mark,
There are two problems with that. First is that you're talking about generic gold in a hot gold market. Second is that you're looking at inside numbers in dealer trading. You know as well as anyone that out in the real retail world, as an average PCGS brings more than NGC for same graded material.
Russ, NCNE >>

To deny this would certainly make one look rather silly, or less than honest.

hard to argue with that comment, perhaps it's time to backpeddle a bit. what i'd like to know from all the dealers isn't what they're willing to pay each other for generic gold(since that's the example), but what they're then turning around and charging customers. my hunch is that they're charging more for the PCGS coins which would be the ultimate hypocricy.

MrEureka · October 31, 2005 7:40AM

Because people in this forum tend to have high numismatic IQ's, it's very easy to forget how ignorant most coin buyers are. So when you ask about the "market perception", you're asking for an ignorant viewpoint. As far as 98% of coin buyers are concerned, there is no difference between PCGS and NGC standards. In fact, 80% of these buyers don't even understand that it's possible for two TPG's to use different standards. To them, a grade is a fact, not an opinion.

The bottom line, to paraphrase Sr. Bumble, is that "the market is an ass". Ignore it.

UncleJoe · October 31, 2005 8:03AM

The bottom line, to paraphrase Sr. Bumble, is that "the market is an ass".

I disagree! (where's dorkkarl when youneed him)?

If what you wrote is true all coins of the same type and grade regardless of the TPG would sell for approx. the same price. But that simply is not true.

The difference in prices would be even greater if you compared either PCGS or NGC with NTC or ACG

or some other lower tier TPG. The lower tier TPG will almost always result in a lower price. Even ANACS sells for a lower price and they are considered a top TPG by many.

Joe.

coinguy1 · October 31, 2005 8:03AM

I noted the prices for the Saints because two participants in this thread had mentioned Saints, period. However, while some of you apparently feel it would be misleading to ignore "retail" transactions for these coins, I think it would be misleading to ignore the huge number of "wholesale" transactions. You might see a hundred MS65 Saints sell in a public auction or on Ebay, etc., while certain dealers might trade hundreds of them in a week.

Here are my general thoughts on (other areas of) the market......

I would guess that there are far more higher sight unseen bids for PCGS coins than for NGC coins. I also believe that far more PCGS coins trade at higher sight-seen levels than do their NGC counterparts. However, MANY NGC coins are better/more desirable than PCGS coins of the same grade and bring equal or greater prices, as a result.

If NGC grades 50,000 coins per month (I'm just using a round, presumably conservative number in order to illustrate my point) and only 25% of them would receive the same grade at PCGS, that is 12,500 coins per month or 150,000 per year that are "as good as" PCGS coins. I also see plenty of coins that NGC has graded LOWER than PCGS has.

There are many great coins in PCGS and NGC holders, and (being diplomatic here) there are many that are far from great.

I think it's silly (or worse) to assume that a PCGS coin is better than an NGC coin, just because of the holders they reside in. To each his own in the world of collecting, but hopefully, collectors will make their choices based upon collecting of the COINS and not the grading labels.

WTCG · October 31, 2005 8:10AM

<< Mark,

There are two problems with that. First is that you're talking about generic gold in a hot gold market. Second is that you're looking at inside numbers in dealer trading. You know as well as anyone that out in the real retail world, as an average PCGS brings more than NGC for same graded material.

Russ, NCNE >>

Not always true. When it comes to generic gold, there are times when NGC graded pieces are more salable than PCGS graded coins. I know many retail collectors who prefer NGC gold more than PCGS gold.

Russ · October 31, 2005 8:25AM

<< I think it's silly (or worse) to assume that a PCGS coin is better than an NGC coin, just because of the holders they reside in. >>

I agree. But, the merits of individual coins was not the question posed. The question was what is the market perception of the two grading services. Right or wrong, the fact is that the market perceives PCGS to be the more conservative of the two services.

Russ, NCNE

WTCG · October 31, 2005 8:26AM

<< 

<< I think it's silly (or worse) to assume that a PCGS coin is better than an NGC coin, just because of the holders they reside in. >>

I agree. But, the merits of individual coins was not the question posed. The question was what is the market perception of the two grading services. Right or wrong, the fact is that the market perceives PCGS to be the more conservative of the two services.

Russ, NCNE >>

Market perception is that both services are a little loose on grading Saints and Liberty Doubles.

coinguy1 · October 31, 2005 8:26AM

<< .... The question was what is the market perception of the two grading services. Right or wrong, the fact is that the market perceives PCGS to be the more conservative of the two services >>

I agree.

Russ · October 31, 2005 8:29AM

I think it could also be argued that right now NGC is grading accurately and PCGS is being stupidly tight. Now that I would argue that.

Russ, NCNE

leothelyon · October 31, 2005 8:46AM

<< The original question was perception. By the 20 coin validation you could be sending the wrong perception, especially if this person asking is new to the hobby. And I don't need to sell NGC and PCGS coins to figure this out. But, I didn't ask the question. >>

Here's my perception on Jefferson nickels. I did this little research awhile back and I haven't really received much feedback on it but here it is again;

I've been doing some research and comparisons with the number of Pcgs and Ngc certified coins (business strike nickels only, dating back to January 2000) that have sold through Heritage and Teletrade (nickels only dating from 1938 to 1970)

Here's the run down on coins sold, Pcgs verses Ngc through Heritage auctions since January 2000.
.............Pcgs......Ngc
MS67.......247......533........1006
MS66......1000......536.......1012
MS65........728.......33..........62
MS64........111........8...........15
Total.......2096....1110.......2096

96% of Ngc coins that sold thru Heritage grade MS66 and MS67 while Pcgs has a 59% rating for the same two grades of coins.
The percent of Pcgs coins that grade MS67 is only 12% compared to Ngc's 53%

And here are the numbers for Pcgs and Ngc that sold through Teletrade in the last 360 days.
............Pcgs......%.........Ngc........%............
MS67......177.....9.8.........378........39.2..........704
MS66......722....40.2........442........45.9..........823
MS65......643....36.8........118........12.2..........219
MS64......226....12.6........ 22..........2.2............41
MS63........26....,1.4...........3...........,.3............5.6
Total......1794.................963........................1794

NGC numbers indicate that 85% of their nickel slabs that sell through Teletrade grade MS66 and MS67 while the percent for for Pcgs is at 50%
Ngc grades almost 4X (704/177) the number of MS67 coins than Pcgs.
While Pcgs grades almost 3X (643/219) the number of MS65 coins than Ngc.
While Pcgs grades almost 5.5X (226/41) the number of MS64 coins than Ngc.

The last column of numbers show what Ngc would have graded/sold if their total
numbers were equal to Pcgs.

Leo

leothelyon · November 2, 2005 11:11AM

Since no one has commented on my last post to this thread, here are some stats on the Wahington quarters.

Washington Quarters that sold thru Teletrade in the last 360 days.

.............PCGS....NGC........PCGS........NGC
MS67......23.......396...........0-0..........0-0
MS66....533.....1263.....32-102..292-687
MS65....495.......216.......25-81......16-54
MS64....175.........66.........8-29..........2-5

65% of NGC certified quarters that sold through Teletrade in the last 360 days dating from 1932 to 1955 graded MS66. For PCGS, it was 43%.
85% of NGC certified quarters that sold through Teletrade in the last 360 days dating from 1932 to 1955 graded MS66 or MS67. For PCGS, it was 45%.
The last two set of numbers show the number of multiple coin lots and the total coins for those lots.
For NGC MS66 multiple coin lots………HSN?

Washington Quarters that sold thru Heritage dating back to specific dates;

............PCGS.......NGC
MS67.....370........247...Nov 02 2004
MS66...1000........180...Jan 29 2004
MS65...1000........312...Nov 08 2004
MS64.....240........143...Nov 02 2004
Total....2610........882

No opinion given.

Have a nice day!

Leo

BAJJERFAN · November 2, 2005 11:37AM

There is at least one dealer that I am aware of who usually makes no distinction between NGC and PCGS holders when pricing his coins. More often than not a 78-CC ms63 PCGS or NGC will be priced the same. Whether or not he pays the same for each holder I do not know as I have never sold anything to him.

Market perception of PGCS and NGC?

Comments

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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