Was it necessary for DLRC to remove the NTC coins from its website?

Longacre · October 19, 2005 2:14AM

Another board member started a thread about how DLRC had some NTC graded coins on their website. There were several responses to the post, and the general consensus from the board was one of outrage that coins from that service would be featured on the website. I, for one, responded that I got physically ill just from looking at the picture online. Others questioned the irreparable damage that might have been caused to DLRC by such an association. To their credit, DLRC publically announced that they would not touch NTC graded coins with a ten foot pole from now on (I assume these coins went immediately into the trash; I see a dumpster diving trip in my future).

Was it necessary for DLRC to take these coins off of its retail site? Did having these coins on its site (which I am sure accounted for a miniscule percentage of its total inventory) really cause for such an alarm among the board members? Would your view of DLRC been changed if occasionally these coins were offered, provided that a "DLRC grade" was given? Should the board strong arm dealers into just stocking PCGS and NGC coins, and, if so, please let me know so I can buy some CU stock first. What do you think?

markglicker · October 19, 2005 2:16AM

I am not sure, how placing a coin in a given holder, diminishes its value.

Russ · October 19, 2005 2:17AM

I don't know if it was necessary, but I can tell you that I flatly refuse to sell NTC graded coins; or PCI Gold or Trugrade or any of the bottom feeding slabbers.

Russ, NCNE

DennisH · October 19, 2005 2:21AM

I believe they did the right thing from a marketing and customer perception point of view.

ss350camaro · October 19, 2005 2:21AM

What a bunch of friggin bullys!

And for DLRC to pull coins from it's sales, because of what a few whiners on this message board have to say, is rediculous in my opinion.

I guess the repeated mantra of "Buy the coin, not the holder" only applies when it suits the mood?

Cladiator · October 19, 2005 2:22AM

DLRC has an extremely good reputation with many, many forum members for offering very nice coins and not unreasonable prices. Their customer service is second to none. I think seeing these NTC crapcoins on the website made people feel as if DLRC wasn't living up to the expectations that many people put on them. That being said, those expectations have been put on them because they earned them with their stellar performance and product over the years. Basically, you won't see a Tiffany & Co. retail store selling CZ diamond in a silver "colored" ring...same principle. IMO - Folks have gotten used to the high standard that DLRC has set for themselves and will settle for nothing less. I think taking the coins in question off the website was the only proper thing for them to do. After all if they really need to sell these coins they can do it under a different name on eBay or somewhere similar so as not to taint the DLRC name with those coins.

OKbustchaser · October 19, 2005 2:23AM

Makes me no difference what holder a coin is in...or what retail organization sells what slabs. If I like the coin at the price being charged, I will buy the coin. It is going to be naked the day it arrives at my address, anyway.

eagle7 · October 19, 2005 2:41AM

It makes no difference what holder the coin is in if you know how to grade and spot bodybag problems. However, you people who post on this cu board are not the only people who buy coins in holders from sellers like DLRC. Some of the people who buy those coins quite frankly dont know anything about what is inside the holder. Why should they have to buy crap like that. They should be protected from that junk. People who know enough about coins to "buy the coin and not the holder" are not the only people who buy coins in holders. You people on this board need to wake up and think about other people once in a while. The world does not revolve around you and the way you buy and sell. JMHO.

RYK · October 19, 2005 2:47AM

I know DLRC, and because of their reputation, beyond lifting an eyebrow, I did not think much of it.

If it is a dealer that I do not know, as soon as I see one NTC (or similar) coin in the online inventory or ebay list, I hit the back button and never return.

I don't know if it was necessary, but I can tell you that I flatly refuse to sell NTC graded coins; or PCI Gold or Trugrade or any of the bottom feeding slabbers.

Russ, I thought that I once read that you will sell anything on ebay so long as it is legal.

Because of my statement above, I agree with your position on this.

OKbustchaser · October 19, 2005 2:49AM

<< It makes no difference what holder the coin is in if you know how to grade and spot bodybag problems. However, you people who post on this cu board are not the only people who buy coins in holders from sellers like DLRC. Some of the people who buy those coins quite frankly dont know anything about what is inside the holder. Why should they have to buy crap like that. They should be protected from that junk. People who know enough about coins to "buy the coin and not the holder" are not the only people who buy coins in holders. You people on this board need to wake up and think about other people once in a while. The world does not revolve around you and the way you buy and sell. JMHO. >>

It is impossible to protect people from themselves. A person who wants to buy something about which he knows nothing IS GOING TO GET STUNG! Regardless, of the name on the lable. If not by one seller, then by another. Pulling properly graded coins from inventory simply because of the lable helps no one.

Jim

zzzz · October 19, 2005 2:50AM

I, for one, responded that I got physically ill just from looking at the picture online.

(I assume these coins went immediately into the trash;

I see a dumpster diving trip in my future

I'm assuming you didn't get that "ill" ........

eagle7 · October 19, 2005 3:03AM

Just for the sake of a friendly argument, here goes. First of all, who says the coins are properly graded? If it is DLRC, then maybe they will buy them back at the same discount as they will their NGC or PCGS slabbed coins. I dont know if that is true or not, but it should be. But suppose the unknowledgeable person takes the coins he bought somewhere else to sell them, or trys to sell them on EBAY. Is he or she going to get close to what they paid at DLRC? I doubt it. And lastly, if the coins are properly graded, why are they not in a PCGS or NGC holder? You see there are some real problems here for people who are not up on grading and such. JMHO.

EagleEye · October 19, 2005 3:30AM

Three Cheers for DLRC!

By putting NTC coins on their web site they are promoting that grading service as something respectable. Even if the coins are sold at what they really are (Say AU money for a MS65) the harm is there. A dealer's reputation goes along with thee coins they sell. I applaude DLRC for refusing to deal with coins from those types of grading services.

A dealer's reputation can be diminished substantially, fairly or not, by bad publicity on this forum. I feel they did the honorable thing here. It shows they have alot of respect for their client base.

OKbustchaser · October 19, 2005 3:42AM

Who says a coin is properly graded by PCGS or NGC? At LEAST 80 percent of the slabbed bust material in my collection was overgraded when I bought it even though holdered by PCGS or NGC and I would wager a large amount that ALL of it has been previously cleaned--even though one cannot tell by looking. I didn't mind as I paid what I considered the proper prices for these pieces. Had the dealers and/or I been depending only on the labels I would have been badly burned.

Will a person who buys a coin in a "bad" slab be able to sell it in the future for as much as he would if it were in one of the so-called "good" holders? Sad to say, but at least in the current market, no. However, chances are very good that if he bought it from a reputable dealer such as the one under discussion he paid less for it then he would have in a "good" slab so in the end it is a wash.

Jim

Nocerino18 · October 19, 2005 3:47AM

Why didn't they just crack it and sell it raw. It was still a pretty nice coin.

Barndog · October 19, 2005 3:50AM

<< I guess the repeated mantra of "Buy the coin, not the holder" only applies when it suits the mood? >>

I thought dealers used the mantra "buy the coin, sell the holder" instead. Just my experience?

nwcs · October 19, 2005 6:06AM

Of course, it is possible it was sold? I've seen other non top 3 slabs on DLRC before and I'm sure I will again

ss350camaro · October 19, 2005 6:40AM

1858 1c Large Letters NTC AU50 (FS-1C-005.5)
Clear doubling most evident on the date and UNITED

(DLRC ID: 145582)

Sorry. This coin is currently on hold pending sale.

Click here to email someone in our coin depart to inquire about this item.

Do to the nature of sale, all auction purchases are sold as-is without a return privilege. Click here for details.

eMail a Friend Price History

Coin Image (Click to enlarge):

ER · October 19, 2005 6:54AM

<<Was it necessary....?>>

No

UncleWiggly · October 19, 2005 7:21AM

Why did they do it in the first place? If we knew the real, true reason they went up on their website then we could answer this question.

Jerry

500Bay · October 19, 2005 7:58AM

DLRC does not sell raw coins.
I think their decision to pull the NTC coins was a smart move. The have such a great reputation, its not worth fooling with it for a few coins. I imagine they bought the coin as part of a collection, and will just wholesale it out.
DLRC is a great company to buy or sell to! I've done both.

Bear · October 19, 2005 8:47AM

I believe that DLRCs reputation is safe. However too many poor 3rd party services

on a web site ,can make some people a little ner....nerv....nervo....nervou.... nervous.

EagleEye · October 19, 2005 8:57AM

The problem with NTC is they cannot be trusted with attributions and grade and possibly authenticity.

FS-005.5 1858 Large Letter Flying Eagle attributed by NTC

The image shows a blow up of UNITED, but the FS005.5 (Snow-2) has doubling on "OF AMERICA". While I can't see the coin, I bet it is a strike doubled piece, and worthless as a variety. Perhaps this can be confirmed.

RYK · October 19, 2005 9:04AM

The problem with NTC is they cannot be trusted with attributions and grade and possibly authenticity.

NTC blowing the variety designation would be so far down on the list of my concerns that it is not even worth thinking about. Grade and authenticity (especially for gold, Trade dollars and others frequently counterfeited) would be at the forefront.

DickyBetz · October 19, 2005 9:22AM

<< I guess the repeated mantra of "Buy the coin, not the holder" only applies when it suits the mood? >>

eagle7 · October 19, 2005 9:42AM

Their auctions, if im not mistaken, are no returns. Or at least some are. Also, if buying off a web site, then you must pay for the coin, then recieve it, then decide if you want to return it, if you can, and on and on. So the old mantra of buy the coin not the holder hardly applies to buying a coin sight unseen, and the iffy return deal on auctions is a real hassle. I dont understand the buy the coin not the holder deal in this instance. Some of you folks are approaching the realm of "dogma" here. If I were at a coin show and could look all I wanted before I bought, I would agree with you.

mozin · October 19, 2005 10:04AM

I am very pleased with the actions of DLRC in removing the NTC coins. More than likely someone referred them to the earlier thread and DLRC quickly corrected their error in listing NTC coins. Raw coins are obviously raw coins but NTC coins I feel are normally misrepresentations.

This little NTC situation and the way it was handled I think turned out to be good advertising for DLRC.

RedTiger · October 19, 2005 12:12PM

Necessary? No.

Good business? In my opinion, yes. Even if they lost only 2% of their customers from carrying that one coin, that is enough to justify pulling it. If they pissed off 10% of their customers by carrying the coin that is plenty reason enough and they will probably never do it again. So poll all you want, a small minority can have a strong voice when it comes to complaints and business practices.

If I glance at a dealer's case and see a preponderance of lower-tier slabs, do I think less of the dealer's inventory? Yes.

Is it fair? In my mind yes. It is human nature. If I see a used Yugo on a car lot with used late model BMW's, it would make me think twice before buying the luxury car from that dealer. Same concept carries over to any number of products.

Always remember that grading services are primarily marketing companies--the grading is secondary.

Myqqy · October 19, 2005 3:00PM

I definately think it was a good business decision on their part. I really don't think it has anything to do with the "buy the coin..." nonsense- Knowledgable collectors do not like ntc slabs, and will start to question your standards if they start seeing those slabs in your inventory....

BlindedByEgo · October 19, 2005 3:02PM

Crap slabs for overgraded coins. IMO all selling those does is bring one's image down. Waste of plastic, I say.

Good move. "Necessary"?, I don't know - but good judgement by me.

BAJJERFAN · October 19, 2005 3:06PM

I wonder why they even listed it in the first place?

numisanity · October 19, 2005 3:13PM

<< I wonder why they even listed it in the first place? >>

That, I think, is the most interesting thing about this whole thread.

PerryHall · October 19, 2005 4:44PM

<< I am very pleased with the actions of DLRC in removing the NTC coins. More than likely someone referred them to the earlier thread and DLRC quickly corrected their error in listing NTC coins. Raw coins are obviously raw coins but NTC coins I feel are normally misrepresentations.

This little NTC situation and the way it was handled I think turned out to be good advertising for DLRC. >>

messydesk · October 19, 2005 4:59PM

<< I wonder why they even listed it in the first place? >>

Not that I think it was, but maybe it was a setup. List a few bottom-feeder slabs, attract attention, pull them from the web site while everyone's watching, receive accolades, publicity, and lots of additional web site hits for doing so.

Of course, it's a pity that a big dealer with a great reputation can't sell accurately graded and described raw coins.

SDCollector · October 19, 2005 6:51PM

Of course, it's a pity that a big dealer with a great reputation can't sell accurately graded and described raw coins.

Bingo! That's the question we should be asking.

AndyNC2005 · October 19, 2005 7:53PM

It was a very good move on their part to pull this "Crap". In the coin business, your reputation is key to your staying in business. Selling slabbed coins is not the for the sake of the "experts" of the world, but for those individuals who wish to buy coins with little or no risk as to their authenticity and grade. It's great that many members don't need a TPG to tell them the grade of the coin. It is ironic that most collect primarily "plastic" coins. Andy

Conder101 · October 20, 2005 2:35AM

Obviously the Mantra had another line that we weren't aware of.

"Buy the coin, not the holder. But only if the coin is in the right holder in the first place" Or alternate version.

"Buy the coin, not the holder. Unless the coin is in the wrong holder."

<< The problem with NTC is they cannot be trusted with attributions and grade and possibly authenticity. >>

Neither can PCGS or NGC. Ok, I'll give them authenticity, they are very good there.

<< I really don't think it has anything to do with the "buy the coin..." nonsense- Knowledgable collectors do not like ntc slabs, >>

Knowledgeable collectors don't care who's slab it is in because they can see past the plastic. Collectors who have to have their hand held insist on just one or two companies plastic no exceptions.

<< I wonder why they even listed it in the first place? >>

Well, let's see, he had it, it was for sale, and he had a website for selling coins. Seems fairly straight forward to me.

VamGuy · October 20, 2005 2:59AM

Conder makes some very good points.

Would anybody like to begin throwing a hissy fit over the PCI coins too??? Seems only fair.

Link

FatMan · October 20, 2005 3:17AM

If DLRC wants to sell coins in NTC slabs they are certainly entitled to do so. If collectors want to bash DLRC for doing so, they have that right too. As for the "buy the coin, not the holder mantra" that's great for those that choose to do so. For those that buy plastic, great for them.

The point is everyone is free to do as they choose. However, every choice we make is riddled with consequences. Often we are blind to other's perceptions and right or wrong, people live by their perceptions as the truth.

I am glad to see DLRC chose to remove the NTC slabs from their offerings. Forget about the coins, that to me is not what is at issue. I haven't even looked at them. My perceptions are much simpler than assessing whether the coins are worthy or not. It is simply that NTC is not worthy and a blight on my hobby. For me, I see any dealer who markets NTC as a partner in keeping the scammer in business. Any dealer who sells coins in NTC slabs is no friend of mine and as a general rule I keep walking. (and yes, I am not happy that my #1 dealer has one in inventory) When a major dealer sells NTC slabs they are silently endorsing the scammer on a national level. I understand that sometimes dealers end up with coins in NTC slabs due to the purchase of entire collections. They should crack them out immediately and submit them to a reputable TPG or sell them raw. Selling them with a disclaimer as to the more accurate grade still leaves the NTC slab on the market and that is unacceptable to me as well.

I recently consigned many coins to an ebay seller. I had a couple of NTC slabs that I purchased when they first arrived on the scene. Two of the three were accurately graded. But that is irrelevant as they are not representive of the product. I cracked all three and they are being sold raw in airtights. I suspect I may recieve less money, but I can sleep at night. I believe DLRC can now again sleep at night too.

relayer · October 20, 2005 3:41AM

For coin collectors, it wasn't necessary.

For plastic collectors, it was vital

Was it necessary for DLRC to remove the NTC coins from its website?

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