Trade Dollar experts: is this one a fake?

VamCollector · October 10, 2005 12:40PM

Saw this on Ebay....it looks strange to me. Someone must think they got a good deal....

1876-CC Trade $ on Ebay

13PacesEast · October 10, 2005 12:42PM

fake modern crap !!!

Nocerino18 · October 10, 2005 12:43PM

Doesn't look right to me. I think Trade Dollars are one the most counterfeited US Coins ever.

Coinguy, how many fake Trade Dollars came through NGC?

What series had the most counterfeits? Not key dates but a series in general.

Barndog · October 10, 2005 12:45PM

<< Someone must think they got a good deal.... >>

yeah, the seller!

Nocerino18 · October 10, 2005 12:47PM

<< yeah, the seller! >>

LOL!

DickyBetz · October 10, 2005 12:55PM

Isnt the winning bidder a forum member?

tradedollarnut · October 10, 2005 1:00PM

The coin is genuine, and as an added bonus has a doubled die reverse. Once thought to be very scarce, it actually is fairly common.

MrEureka · October 10, 2005 1:01PM

Double die?

Edited to say TDN is too fast for me!

lathmach · October 10, 2005 1:06PM

TDN...........
I'm not into the Trade Dollars, although I have a few.
Was this reverse die with the tops of the E's broken only used in this year?

Ray

MORGANHUNTER2 · October 10, 2005 1:09PM

Tis a real cc trade dollar folks- and our resident expert did see it as a DD- I gots one like it- and paid a hair more for it (under 20 on this date)

Hansen you dog....

66Tbird · October 10, 2005 1:09PM

I don't see anything that screems fake. All the points I check say OK. No period after ''fine'', but some Date/mm's don't have that. I'm not up on it enough to know which dates those are

tradedollarnut · October 10, 2005 1:17PM

Was this reverse die with the tops of the E's broken only used in this year?

No, they broke early and broke often. By 1876, they were probably tired of patching them!

keoj · October 10, 2005 1:30PM

Tis the real deal.......Coin is not a fake.

keoj

EVillageProwler · October 10, 2005 1:32PM

I also think the coin is real, but not a DDR. The real DDR's use the T1 rev, but I think this is the tougher non-DDR w/ T1 rev. Unless, of course, my eyes deceive me...

tradedollarnut · October 10, 2005 1:37PM

Your eyes deceive you. The DDR is the one without the period after FINE. Plus, you can just see the doubled wingtip.

greghansen · October 10, 2005 6:36PM

I was interested in it because of the DDR. There is a deceptive DDR counterfeit (which should be the subject of an article by the way) but the primary die markers of the counterfeit were not on this coin so I took a shot. I wasn't 100% sure. Glad to hear the big hitters believe it to be the real deal. The DDR is still a bit elusive IMO. I had one PCGS VF30 DDR that had a couple of chopmarks. Sorry I sold that one. I've not run into another with chopmarks in the last couple of years although I know there are several that are known.

ER · October 10, 2005 6:51PM

Congrats Greg. If it turns out fake, the seller will have an attorney breathing down his neck.

VamGuy · October 10, 2005 11:58PM

<< There is a deceptive DDR counterfeit (which should be the subject of an article by the way) >>

In June of 2005 Leroy Van Allen wrote an article entitled "1876 CC Trade Dollar Doubled Die Reverse Counterfeit". It is quite in depth and includes detailed photographs. Contact him at vams@bright.net to order a copy.

Based on the low resolution photographs in the auction, it appears that this coin might be counterfeit.

BillJones · October 11, 2005 12:50AM

The experts might think that this Ebay Trade Dollar is genuine, but I won't bid on it on a bet. The thing looks bogus to me. The surfaces are grainy, and the color is just the right (dark) shade to hide stuff.

greghansen · October 11, 2005 7:23AM

Well, with the professional debate between some pretty knowledgable folks, I'll make sure to update this thread at the appropriate time once the Third Party Graders have had a chance to pass their judgment on the coin. I'll also take larger higher resolution pictures and post them when it arrives. The things that made me most nervous about the coin were the slightly off color and the 2 fairly significant depressions on the obverse just above the IN GOD WE TRUST. I struggled with what might have naturally caused those on an authentic coin. I did email the seller about their return policy before bidding, so I do have a 7 day window to return it once it arrives. The seller was adamant (imagine that) about the authenticity of the coin when I raised the issue with him. I'm about 90% sure I can make an accurate assessment once I have it in hand, but if it is a true stumper I may have to Fed Ex it to one of the resident board Trade Dollar experts to get their take on it.

shirohniichan · October 11, 2005 7:45AM

<< The experts might think that this Ebay Trade Dollar is genuine, but I won't bid on it on a bet. The thing looks bogus to me. The surfaces are grainy, and the color is just the right (dark) shade to hide stuff. >>

I agree with Bill on this one. The I in UNITED, the O in OF and the R in America look suspicious, among other things.

BTW, I think the non-DDR type 1 reverse is harder to find unchopped.

66Tbird · October 11, 2005 9:58AM

By all means don't consider me an expert,

JFYI

66Tbird · October 11, 2005 10:22AM

first Double post I've done in a long time

VamCollector · October 11, 2005 11:00AM

Boy, I guess this is why I'm no expert on Trade $. At least the seller does offer a return policy. To me the coin just looks a little strange. There appears to be virtually no wear and no luster that shows up in the pics. Is it possible the coin has been polished?

DDR · October 11, 2005 11:00AM

I can confirm that a counterfeit 1876-CC double die Trade dollar exists. I purchased one about 5 years ago, the only counterfeit Trade dollar that has ever fooled me. When I got it home and examined the surfaces, they looked a bit off, kind of grainy. I sent it to ANACS right away and, sure enough, it was fake.

tradedollarnut · October 11, 2005 11:05AM

Well, if this one is counterfeit then they've managed to correct every single marker I use for detecting a counterfeit off an image. Bummer!

marz · October 11, 2005 11:09AM

coin is fake! period! and without notifying the potential buyers it is also a felony to sell counterfeit coins and currency~ report the seller!

Russ · October 11, 2005 11:18AM

Interesting dichotomy of opinion on this one. Makes it tough for us clueless ones!

Russ, NCNE

Millertime · October 11, 2005 11:19AM

<< Interesting dichotomy of opinion on this one. Makes it tough for us clueless ones!

Russ, NCNE >>

lathmach · October 11, 2005 11:58AM

<< coin is fake! period! and without notifying the potential buyers it is also a felony to sell counterfeit coins and currency~ report the seller!....marz

>>

I don't think so marz. We have two heavy hitters on the Trade Dollars here say it's real.
Tell us you everything you know about the series.
I've read several published articles by keoj in the Gobrecht Journal.
Where have your research articles been published?

Ray

marz · October 11, 2005 12:43PM

I hear you. I will tell you I have a pile of counterfeit ones and some real one as well and this looks just like the fake puppies I own! But I admit,I am no expert... Hey! experts! I woulds like to buy a high grade certified one of you guys have one to sell for my type collection???

Cardknowledge@earthlink.net thanks much!

<< 

<< coin is fake! period! and without notifying the potential buyers it is also a felony to sell counterfeit coins and currency~ report the seller!....marz

>>

I don't think so marz. We have two heavy hitters on the Trade Dollars here say it's real.
Tell us you everything you know about the series.
I've read several published articles by keoj in the Gobrecht Journal.
Where have your research articles been published?

Ray >>

keoj · October 11, 2005 12:49PM

After looking at the coin again closely, I can't tell anymore. The pictures are not good enough to tell. And, yes, there are some very, very deceptive76-CC DDR's out there. I bought one a few years ago that had right markers and it turned out to fake (took about 1 second to see it in my hands). Another one that I worked with a fellow on the Forum, and it was only when he took a very high res photo, I could make the call that it was fake. For those that wnat the die markers, these are the ones that I use for a 76-CC DDR.

- Type I/I
- Make sure that the neck feathers on the left (as you look at the eagle) don't smooth into the shoulder of the Eagle (another subtle Type I reverse marker)
- The tops on N, I and E in UNITED all have defects at the tops of the serifs
- The right wing tip is doubled
- Two vines are seen of the right under the wing tip.....the shadow one hits the top of E in FINE
- The eagle has a small whisker under the beak on the right
- The feathers on the eagles wing on the right (as you look at it are doubled)

Ifyou have a loupe:
- E PLURIBUS UNUM is very doubled
- G and R in GRAINS is very doubled

Again, the picture is not good enough to make a 100% claim one way or another.

Hope this helps. If anyone is interested, I can send a high res scan of a genuine one for reference. Just PM me with you email.

keoj

tradedollarnut · October 11, 2005 12:49PM

There are about a dozen little things that the counterfeiters normally mess up on [at least one or more of them] that you can pick up on in an image. Other than potentially color or surfaces, none are present on this coin. Therefore, it should be authenticated in person.

Keoj: add 'no period after FINE' to your list

Dabigkahuna · October 11, 2005 1:28PM

Sorry for the poor pics, I can't seem to find my good lens.

1876-CC DDR A

1876-CC DDR B

Larry
Dabigkahuna

Newmismatist · October 11, 2005 1:35PM

<< Based on the low resolution photographs in the auction, it appears that this coin might be counterfeit. >>

I'd agree and the surfaces don't look good either - It certainly has a suspecious look to it and it would be a coin that if I were the buyer, I would want a return privilege on that coin with the understanding that it would be promptly sent to ANACS/PCGS or NGC for authenticity. If it came back as fake, as a buyer I would have the right to return it for a full refund. JMHO (and I don't specialize in trade dollars - but having owned a few of the genuine ones, I'd be real careful with that coin).

leothelyon · October 11, 2005 1:47PM

I have one nicely toned TD. Other than that, I couldn't say one way or another! That's why I usually keep my mouth shut about most other series. Nice catch!

Leo

Dabigkahuna · October 11, 2005 1:58PM

Call me crazy but if I had seen this one on Ebay I probably would have taken a shot. Of course I would have asked the seller for a couple of better pics.

Even though it doesn't have chops.

Larry
Dabigkahuna

VamCollector · October 11, 2005 2:33PM

I dunno. I compared it to other slabbed 1876-CCs on some other websites and it just looks like some of the recessed details on this coin are not very sharp (or not there at all) relative to its apparent grade. Most of the detail on this coin just looks recessed. It just looks wrong to me but hey, I've been wrong before. Yeah, it could just be the pics. I'd be very interested as to what the coin looks like in hand.

VamCollector · October 11, 2005 2:34PM

BTW, the seller has another Trade up this week with a similar look to it. Good luck.

DUIGUY · October 11, 2005 3:07PM

This one is real. Maybe it will help for comparison purposes.

greghansen · October 11, 2005 9:02PM

Unfortunately, images of other authentic Trade Dollars from other years/mint marks, while helpful in getting an overall general feel for what a Trade should look like...are not particularly useful in trying to authenticate the 1876-CC DDR. Below I have copied the reverse image of the disputed coin, as well as images of known authentic and counterfeit reverses of the same coin. Of the die markers listed by Keoj, the one he pointed out to me a couple of years ago, which I have found 100% accurate (so far) is the presence of doubling on the inside feathers of the right wing on authentic coins. More below: First the reverse of the questioned coin. I'll substitute a better image of my own once I get the coin...

Next are the images of a known authentic 1876-CC DDR. Super strong doubling of the right wing tip and the extra olive branch just above FINE are the most obvious diagnostics, but the most important for authentication IMO is the doubling inside the right wing which appears as an extra 'row' of feathers. Sorry I don't know how to use the arrows in my photo editing, but if you compare this picture with the counterfeit one that follows, you will see a doubled row of feathers just below the primary row in the inside feathers of the right wing. This coin is unquestionably authentic.

And now for the very deceptive 1876-CC which I also own, unfortunately as a small benefit of the frequent tuition I have paid at the University of Hard Knox. Disregard the obvious color differences since the counterfeit which follows is a scan (not a photo) because I wanted to get a huge scan of the counterfeit in 1200 dpi for reference purposes. In real life, the color/surfaces of the counterfeit are very deceptive and could easily pass for the real thing. In fact, at least one has passed for the real thing at a TPG service that I am aware of. Please compare the inside feathers of the right wing and you will see NO SIGN OF DOUBLING on this counterfeit! The other doubling markers are there (wing tip, doubled branch, etc.). There are many other markers that give away this coin, most easily seen is the horizontal row of three or four shallow depressions just to the left of the eagles head. These depressions are easily seen at arms length and I have personally observed them on several other 1876-CC DDR and they are counterfeit markers. This coin and its brothers/sisters was sold frequently on EBAY in 2003 & 2004. I haven't seen any recently, but they are sure to be a problem for collectors forever.

Applying this information to the questioned coin, I could obviously see the doubled wingtip and extra olive branch in the sellers image. I was interested, however, in trying to see the extra row of feathers in the right wing, which I 'thought' I could see, but wasn't (and still am not) sure. I was encouraged that I did not see the die markers of the 1876-CC DDR counterfeit that I am most familiar with. That's no guarantee, obviously, that the questioned coin won't be a 'new brand' of counterfeit that fools me all over again! We'll know soon enough!

keoj · October 11, 2005 10:09PM

Greg,

Good luck on the coin and thanks for posting the images. Let us know the final call on this one when you get the coin. The last image that you posted is the one that through us both for a loop for a while. For others, please take a look at it and you can see how deceptive some of these copies have become.

Yet another reason to avoid raw trade dollars on ebay unless you know the series very well and even then, no guarantees.

keoj

shirohniichan · October 13, 2005 3:53AM

Doesn' t the O in "OF" look suspicious to anyone else? Is the space inside the O so narrow due to wear? How about the S in "PLURIBUS" missing? Localized wear? A defect on the counterfeit die?

tradedollarnut · October 13, 2005 5:34AM

That last image shows just how good the fakes have gotten - no matches to the markers I usually use to determine a fake off an image.

Now I'm leaning toward fake for the ebay coin. The genuine doubled die shows well formed relief in the breast of the eagle with noticeable doubling in the feathers. The fake shows less relief and appears a bit flat on the right side. The ebay coin shows this lack of relief and also the corresponding flatness on the right side.

The doubled breast feathers are immediately seen when viewing a DDR - on the fake and the ebay coin they just don't stand out.

nankraut · October 13, 2005 12:09PM

This very interesting/informative thread just reinforces my long-standing rule regarding Trade Dollars: If it's not in a PCGS holder, FUGGEDABOUDIT!

MAD4MORGANS · October 13, 2005 5:09PM

<< This very interesting/informative thread just reinforces my long-standing rule regarding Trade Dollars: If it's not in a PCGS holder, FUGGEDABOUDIT!

>>

Totally

PerryHall · October 14, 2005 11:25AM

I would also trust ANACS and NGC as far as authentication. But I agree that buying raw trade dollars is very risky.

Hobbyist · October 15, 2005 2:58AM

And this is why, needing only one Trade Dollar for my type set, I don't think I will ever buy one raw and especially not off of Ebay. Not knowing much about them, I would always have doubt in my mind.

ldhair · October 15, 2005 3:33AM

Were there contemporary copies of trade dollars?
About when did the modern copies start showing up?
Or have copies been made all along?

MrEureka · October 15, 2005 3:40AM

But I agree that buying raw trade dollars is very risky.

If they can counterfeit trade dollars, they can counterfeit other coins. And the counterfeits will continue to get better.

xbob · October 15, 2005 3:50AM

<< And this is why, needing only one Trade Dollar for my type set, I don't think I will ever buy one raw and especially not off of Ebay. Not knowing much about them, I would always have doubt in my mind. >>

Amen brother! I'm with you on that one.

This thread was a very enlightening read!

Trade Dollar experts: is this one a fake?

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