Raw Coins...I'm Done withThem
ireichel
Posts: 553
This is a note that I sent to the editor of Coin World...I am very steamed about this!
Even after collecting coins for many years, I still prefer to trust my coins to the opinions of the professional graders. An incident occurred today which makes me think about how many collectors out there are happily paying their hard earned dollars for coins worth only a fraction of their investment. I recently sold four net graded slabs on eBay. They were scooped up by someone I assumed was a collector. A month after the sale, I noticed the same four coins being offered as raw coins for auction, by the same person who had purchased them in slabs from me. Furthermore, they were offered at premiums of 6 times or better the price that they had been purchased at. To make matters worse, there was no mention of the "filled rims, scratches, and cleaning" which had been listed on the original slabs .I compared photos of the coins (which were all Barber Halves)which I have to the photos on eBay. No doubt, same coins, same marks, same little dings and marks. Needless to say, when I contacted the seller, there was no reply. I did not expect one from such a low life. And by the way, the seller had a rating of 100% satisfaction. So to all of those self made experts who enjoy numismatics and continually scowl at the third party graders, I'd suggest you take a better look at your raw collection. Perhaps you might submit a few, just to be sure.
Even after collecting coins for many years, I still prefer to trust my coins to the opinions of the professional graders. An incident occurred today which makes me think about how many collectors out there are happily paying their hard earned dollars for coins worth only a fraction of their investment. I recently sold four net graded slabs on eBay. They were scooped up by someone I assumed was a collector. A month after the sale, I noticed the same four coins being offered as raw coins for auction, by the same person who had purchased them in slabs from me. Furthermore, they were offered at premiums of 6 times or better the price that they had been purchased at. To make matters worse, there was no mention of the "filled rims, scratches, and cleaning" which had been listed on the original slabs .I compared photos of the coins (which were all Barber Halves)which I have to the photos on eBay. No doubt, same coins, same marks, same little dings and marks. Needless to say, when I contacted the seller, there was no reply. I did not expect one from such a low life. And by the way, the seller had a rating of 100% satisfaction. So to all of those self made experts who enjoy numismatics and continually scowl at the third party graders, I'd suggest you take a better look at your raw collection. Perhaps you might submit a few, just to be sure.
Irv Reichel
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
Jerry
<< <i>Out the seller.
Russ, NCNE >>
I agree.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
this kind of thing goes on all the time, more than we'd be willing to believe. this is just a case where the seller can be identified.
--Severian the Lame
Why do people pay for $250,000 for a Ferrari when it is only an engine, tires and metallic shell? Not that this coin is even remotely like a Ferrari, but it is the concept of matching a buyer for a seller at a perceived value. I wouldn't have bought the holdered 96-O at the listed price and I would not buy it either raw and marked up 6 times the original price....but that is because I would rather spend my money on the ferrari!
Tyler
Randy
<< <i>Why is it that you make no mention of the filed rims and cleaning as noted on the ANACS slab that you cracked the coin out of after you bought it in this auction? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11971&item=8330150875 >>
It'll be interesting to see his response.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i> how is it different from any of the myriad collectors/dealers at this forum who might submit a coin several times until they get the hoped for money grade??should they be under some ethical obligation to divulge that at the point of selling the coin?? what about collectors/dealers who submit Modern Commems and when the come back MS68/PR68DCAM quickly crack them out ansd sell them raw in the original packaging w/COA?? what about collectors/dealers who crack out coins and sell them raw?? >>
It's different, because it appears, from what we have been told, that the seller is making a practice of buying problem coins, cracking them out of their holders and purposely NOT disclosing the problems.
Additionally, opinions regarding numerical grades are subjective, whereas the determination as to whether a coin has a filed rim (or has been cleaned) is generally an objective one.
It's also different, because we have real-life examples before our eyes, rather than just the abstract notion that such things can and do happen.
It's eBay! Repeat, it's eBay!!! (Please note that the coin has not sold yet.)
IMO the pic clearly shows that the coin has problems. It might have been nice if the seller mentioned them, but I don't think there is anything that requires him to do that! (other than a guilty conscience).
Joe. Buyer beware.
<< <i>It's different, because it appears, from what we have been told, that the seller is making a practice of buying problem coins, cracking them out of their holders and purposely NOT disclosing the problems. >>
And crackout artists make a practice out of resubmitting liner coins until they make the undeserved jump to the higher level without disclosing the fact that the coin has been submitted ten times, is maxed, and now has a gift grade. Better give up on slabbed coins too.
Actually, just learn to grade, examine the coins yourself, make your own decision about the coin and don't take anyone elses opinion about it as gospel.
you seem to agree with my first point while Mark wants to be selective in his ethical choices. i'm sure our astute collegue has always informed a buyer of the lower grade a coin received, a coin Mark cherried and upgraded for profit. i mean, hey, according to his opinion that should be what's done, right??
In summary: I'm done with raw coins also..........
My TV Blog
<< <i>no real reason to get all worked up about this, it probably happens all the time. >>
So does murder, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get "worked up" about it!
Dan
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
<< <i>Maybe I'm naive but isn't this an eBay/interent problem not a raw coin problem >>
I think it's a bit of both.
<< <i>And crackout artists make a practice out of resubmitting liner coins until they make the undeserved jump to the higher level without disclosing the fact that the coin has been submitted ten times, is maxed, and now has a gift grade. Better give up on slabbed coins too >>
Condor101, one of the distinctions I had made (see at the bottom of this post) was that the seller intentionally hid information about things like rim filing and cleaning (which can be judged by a more objective standard) vs. differences in numerical grading opinions (which are usually far more subjective in nature).
You, Keets and others are certainly free to disagree about drawing the line there, as opposed to disclosing any and all previous grading (or no-grade) information.
<< <i>Additionally, opinions regarding numerical grades are subjective, whereas the determination as to whether a coin has a filed rim (or has been cleaned) is generally an objective one. >>
<< <i>Maybe I'm naive but isn't this an eBay/interent problem not a raw coin problem. >>
The same thing goes on at coins shows with "real" dealers. There's nothing wrong with raw coins, but there is something wrong if you buy them without knowing what you're doing. And by the same token, you can get taken by overgraded certified coins, too.
You know old saying about buying the book? It still applies!
How many of you expect your mechanic to be honest? How about your doctor? Do you need a medical degree to make sure your doctor is not "ripping you off"?
While I agree that the buyer should be wary, the coin industry is driving away people by building a perceived reputation for shady dealing and tricks like these. When I walk into a coin shop there are coins I simply will not consider buying because I believe that I will not get correct/clear information about the coin. In fact, I honestly feel in my gut (which is a big feeling let me tell you) that the unless I know enough about the coin to judge for myself the value, I will get "taken" or "ripped". I have advised friends to put coin dealers on the same level as used car salesmen. In fact I saved one friend by getting "ripped" by a dealer on a few mid-value coins the guy had absolutely lowballed (it was only a few hundred dollars, but it was a "rip" attempt).
So, I have avoided spending thousands of dollars I might otherwise have spent.
Don't be so casual and dismiss dishonesty. The dealers are only hurting themselves. I know they have driven me away from seriously playing with coins (I almost said investing, but it is a lousy investment and I just love dabbling in coins).
This was his reply to an email which made note of the fact that he had been outted for cracking coins out of holders and failing to disclose known problems:
<<I do not know if this is the same coin or not.It has been removed until it is known.Any problems I thought to be an issue should of been disclosed.If there are abnormal issues it will be disclosedif relisted.
Thanks Arnie>>
<< <i>I do not know if this is the same coin or not. >>
Yeah, right.
Russ, NCNE
Last time my in-laws came for a visit, they mentioned they have a bunch of "silver dollars" they would like me to look at and tell them what they're worth. They said they've heard nothing but negatives about ALL the coin dealers in the city of Pittsburgh and would trust none of them.
<< <i>Hey Mark don't know if you remember the 74 IHC I showed you in and NCS holder, tagged for improper cleaning but you did comment to me that you would have most likely ok'd it. Would it be unethical to send it to PCGS to get slabbed? >>
Mike, that would not be unethical in my opinion. I think I remember it, too.
Would it then be OK for the seller to mark it up 5X's and sell it as a problem free coin?
<< <i>I do not know if this is the same coin or not.... >>
I guess he forgot about buying it and cracking it out to eliminate the evidence.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Would it then be OK for the seller to mark it up 5X's and sell it as a problem free coin?
It happens all the time (right or wrong).
<< <i>I'm with keets on this one in that I believe folks should have substantial personal responsibility with their choices when they buy. This is always an opinion that gets me hammered on these boards, which I find truly amazing. >>
Saying people should spend their due diligence before buying and crusading against ripoff artists and shady dealers are not mutually exclusive.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It’s “buyer beware” folks, whether slabbed or not. Assume nothing when buying any coin, and you’ll do fine. Assume PCGS won’t slab a problem coin, and you’re looking for real trouble…
Dave
But I like how you "E-Bay police" on this forum monitor the fraudulant. Every bit helps the collectors in their purchases. But you can't save everyone. If someone doesn't wish to do their homework, or is looking for a big break, (like Barney a.k.a. offthehorseforgood), a P.T.Barnum seller will catch some off guard.
My question is this, and I will say it over and over again. WHO IN THEIR SANE MIND WOULD BUY ANYTHING RAW THESE DAYS, THAT IS PRICED OVER $1000, AND OFF OF E-BAY NO LESS???
The slabbing helps to legitimize/authenticate purchases. Closes the book on getting "ripped off". But, there are still those out there, (niave and making the crooks rich), who think they found a steal on E-bay and want the get-rich-quick coin.
Too bad I have a conscience. I could be making a mint off of these P.T. Barnum suckers.
<< <i>no real reason to get all worked up about this, it probably happens all the time. how is it different from any of the myriad collectors/dealers at this forum who might submit a coin several times until they get the hoped for money grade?? should they be under some ethical obligation to divulge that at the point of selling the coin?? what about collectors/dealers who submit Modern Commems and when the come back MS68/PR68DCAM quickly crack them out ansd sell them raw in the original packaging w/COA?? what about collectors/dealers who crack out coins and sell them raw?? i could go on, but what's the point??
this kind of thing goes on all the time, more than we'd be willing to believe. this is just a case where the seller can be identified. >>
Keets quit being so realistic and straight forward. People do not want to hear this and will always pick your posts apart to suit their own agenda.
Ken
Tom
If we collectors chose not to trust ANYONE, wouldn't the prices soon go down, since no one was willing to buy? What a GREAT strategy!!!
<< <i>but one should not EXPECT to be ripped off when buying an coin.
Tom >>
I politely disagree on this one. If it isn't slabbed, any coin should be looked at with a bit of skepticism. Sad, but true nowadays.
Looking for alot of crap.
The only way to protect yourself is knowledge.....
jom
Only half true. Slabbed or not, any coin should be looked at with a bit of skepticism
Dave
<< <i> I think that having a general agreement that dishonesty (or at least deception) is rampant is a sad statement, and this perception IS harming the hobby and IS limiting the people entering it. >>
<< <i>I think that having a general agreement that dishonesty (or at least deception) is rampant is a sad statement, and this perception IS harming the hobby and IS limiting the people entering it. >>
Would you prefer we stick our heads in the sand and lie to ourselves. Numismatics has become a business, all businesses have their fair share of scumbags. Ours is no exception. If anyone doesn't believe this let me know, I'll sell you some used cars.
Looking for alot of crap.
No, in fact the honesty is nice. It just surprises me that there is not more anger at the scammers, rather than a sense of resignation. As it stands now the general novice seems to be in for a rough ride.
I think it is not unreasonable to expect honesty, but be wary of trickery. I think it IS unusual to expect trickery, or sometimes outright lies. I cannot think of a hobby that has survived such a stigma for very long. It would be sad to think that greed rather than a love of the coins/hobby was the primary driver for something I enjoy so much.
Ever look at a Stacks catalog?