Would you be in favor of invisible permanent ID numbers on coins?
kranky
Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
Let's say that a technology comes along which makes it possible to put an invisible ID number on coins (of course, it won't harm the coin in any way). While it's not truly invisible, using ion beam technology today you could etch in between the reeds on a coin's edge. The lettering can be so small that you could put a single line of about 200,000 characters along one reed of a dime. That's the equivalent of 100 pages of single-spaced text.
You can say it's invisible for all practical purposes since it couldn't be seen without magnification. A 20-character ID would only be 1/10,000 of the thickness of a dime.
Advantages:
Pedigrees would never be lost.
Doctoring becomes tougher to get away with.
Ownership can be traced if necessary.
TPGs might adopt the idea and agree to apply an ID number for just a reholdering fee.
Does not impair the coin.
Possibly affects crackout game if the TPG retains records of the ID numbers. (This is already done for paper money, using the serial numbers of the notes.)
Disadvantages:
Small risk of damage due to mishandling while applying the ID number.
If TPGs don't adopt the system, this would take a long time to become effective because many slabbed coins aren't going to be broken out. However, the number could be etched in the slab.
Numbers would not be visible in photos, so unless someone chooses to reveal the number you'd have to see the coin in-hand to know.
Possibly affects crackout game if the TPG retains records of the ID numbers.
Do you think something like that would be good or bad for the hobby?
You can say it's invisible for all practical purposes since it couldn't be seen without magnification. A 20-character ID would only be 1/10,000 of the thickness of a dime.
Advantages:
Pedigrees would never be lost.
Doctoring becomes tougher to get away with.
Ownership can be traced if necessary.
TPGs might adopt the idea and agree to apply an ID number for just a reholdering fee.
Does not impair the coin.
Possibly affects crackout game if the TPG retains records of the ID numbers. (This is already done for paper money, using the serial numbers of the notes.)
Disadvantages:
Small risk of damage due to mishandling while applying the ID number.
If TPGs don't adopt the system, this would take a long time to become effective because many slabbed coins aren't going to be broken out. However, the number could be etched in the slab.
Numbers would not be visible in photos, so unless someone chooses to reveal the number you'd have to see the coin in-hand to know.
Possibly affects crackout game if the TPG retains records of the ID numbers.
Do you think something like that would be good or bad for the hobby?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
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Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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I guess I'll have to say that I have mixed emotions on the subject.
Neo...
It's physically mixing modern technology with a historical item. I just feel coins should remain untouched and be nothing less than the way they were originally intended to exist.
<< <i>How can etching be permanent? Can't it be polished out? >>
I'm assuming that removing the number would leave a detectible disturbance in the area. That might not be the case, though.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Making a general assumption of about 100 reeds on the average dime (I don't know if this is correct or not)
It sounds like Kranky wants to market the first 20 megabyte dime!
The first thing that would have to be agreed upon, however, is the grade and the method of manufacture for the coin.
It certainly would drastically reduce the # of resubmissions, so the TPG's are not likely to be in favor of the concept.
Having the pedigree info seems harmless.
Until a scientific system becomes available for grading, it will continue to be educated opinions, which it has been forever.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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Also the crack out people would hate it, and when there is a sizable lobby against something, most of the time it doesn't happen. Still, I think it'd be good.
It wouldn't concern me if other people took their coins and punched numbers in to them.
But for me this is just a hobby and I have no need for that.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
after all, what if the grade of the coin CHANGES? this can easily happen if it's for example, put in a album & allowed to nicely tone for a few years, or conversely, it's accidentally dropped on the floor & get's a rim ding.
the etching idea is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE, & i hope the coin collecting community never gets duped into accepting it.
K S
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
<< <i>I don't imagine grading would even enter the picture. It would just be a method of identifying specific coins, not grades. >>
kranky, sorry, but i believe that is naive. there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that tying a serial # to grade would be the immediate & long-lasting impact of embedded serial #'s, & that is the primary reason in think it's a terrible idea.
the extraordinary $$$-making opportunities for grading co's are endless - which is why it unfortunately will probably happen, sooner or later.
K S
the coin. It would be helpful in recovering stolen coins, establishing provenance and could provide
the basis for truly useful population reports.
Imagine being able to enter a coin's serial number and find that it is currently graded PF66 by
NGC and formerly PR65 by PCGS, and that it was auctioned in 2004 by ANR, 2003 by Heritage and
1999 by Heritage.
I think Julian is right - any such system would be rejected by TPGs, not embraced by them. I'm just dreaming, but wouldn't it be something if the people who buy great original coins and strip them to get a slab upgrade couldn't sell their product because people could determine the coin had been played with?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>The lettering can be so small that you could put a single line of about 200,000 characters along one reed of a dime. >>
BB - tooled
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You'll also create two new businesses overnight - etchers and counterfeiters. Within
6 months, a third & fourth business will pop up - to remove etchings w/o a trace and to detect
said removals.
Do coins that have modified/fake/removed etchings get bodybagged by TPG's? How does the small
time collector detect and deal with this?
I'm afraid it's un-workable idea.
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edit - a better way of identifying high grade and rare coins is with high quality photographs, which are continuously improving with auction firms. Many dipped and resubmitted coins have been indentified on this board with auction photo's. The problem is that TPG's do not use them to identify doctored coins.
By the way, which of the 118 reeds of the dime are you going to have to examine with the 30X scope to see the serial number (Nope not that one, next. Nope not that one, next. Nope not that one, next. . . . . )
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Now go to the baseball card people and ask them how they would like it.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>No way. I would not be interested in etched coins. >>
I agree.
<< <i>i think the potential negative aspects of such an endeavor would eventually outweigh anything positive. the idea sounds good---probably late at night with a few beers under your belt---but i don't ever see the various services employing it to help us collectors out. >>
That's Al's nice way of saying "He must have been wasted to come up with that idea."
Actually, I think it will happen someday. It won't be embraced by everyone, just as slabbing is not even after 20 years. And I think the driving force will be coin doctors. People will get fed up with AT coins that are so good they pass for NT, lasered proof gold, etc. The doctors get better all the time and if true originality is still valued highly in the future, people might like seeing high-res photos of a coin as it was ten years earlier, knowing for sure it's the same coin, and being able to confirm the coin hasn't been played with. The day could come when the only way to know for sure if the coin is original is to be able to see what it looked like years before while being positive it's the same coin.
Now if the tide turns, and there is a momentum shift which accepts doctoring as long as you can't tell (i.e. lasering out marks, re-engraving detail), different story. If the day comes where people only care about how the coin looks and that it's authentic, and not whether it was messed with, there won't be any need for traceability.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>Conder, I know you would buy the coin, not the serial number. >>
So true, but in the senario I described I was doing the selling not the buying. (Of course "I" wouldn't do that, but I could very easily see some of these less ethical coin doctors, artificial toners, etc doing such a scam. Especially if the grading service is foolish enough to reslab based on the serial number. Get the serial number of an 1884-S dollar in 63, buy up some in AU and put the serial number for the 63 on it. Every month or so send the "63" back in raw and get it reslabbed as a 63. Since a "previously graded 63" comes in and goes back out the pop numbers dont change. but in the meantime you have "created" and sold a half dozen MS-63's.)
Now eventually the scam will be discovered when people start seeing the same serial numbered coin over and over again, possibly with two being offered at the same time, or somene who has one sees HIS coin being offered for sale. But in the meantime the scammer can do this with a large number of different issues and make a bundle. Of couse for that reason I doubt if the top services would reslab based just on the serial number. They would insist on re-examination and then bag the coin for Altered-fake serial number.
Of course the scammers will still be able to sell them raw as the rare coin by referencing the serial number on the coin anyway. Take our hypothetical 1884-S dollar in AU with the MS-63 serial number. Can't get it slabbed but we can sell it raw. Won't get 63 money, but might get 60 or 61 money, and that still makes the scam worthwhile.
<Would you be in favor of invisible permanent ID numbers on coins?>
I high resolution laser scan of a coins surface could effectively come up with a unique ID number based on the coins surface, without doing any etching. If slabbed, the coin would likely retain the same surface characteristics within a small margin for error (dust specks, etc..).
But a crack out would only need a little alteration to throw that off. Coin doctoring could easily throw off the photo match too.
Damn, I shot down my own idea before I even finished fully formulating it.
Back to square one. Collect what you want. Look at the coin not the plastic, etc.. etc.. etc...
collections: Maryland related coins & exonumia, 7070 Type set, and Video Arcade Tokens.
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Now to twist this a little (ok, a lot), what if this micro-serial number were tied to an EULA of some sort. In order to accept title transfer of a numbered coin, you would have to agree to the terms of the TPG that issued the number. As soon as you bought the coin, you would have to pay an activation fee in order to have your title acknowledged by the TPG. Of course, you would do so in order to cover yourself against a claim of ownership by a previously registered party, blah blah blah ok just shoot me now.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>i do not want my coins etched, & i don't want to buy etched coins either.
after all, what if the grade of the coin CHANGES? this can easily happen if it's for example, put in a album & allowed to nicely tone for a few years, or conversely, it's accidentally dropped on the floor & get's a rim ding.
the etching idea is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE, & i hope the coin collecting community never gets duped into accepting it.
K S >>
You damage a coin with it, and I would really be against it.....
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What about all the coins already slabbed? Is the etching doable through the slab?
The only method I know of that would do this today is a "Focused Ion Beam" built into a Scanning electron microscope.
1. Cost of a decent tool set ------> upwards of a cool million $'s in the semiconductor world
2. setup, training and education of a tech to run it ------> ?? $100K
3. FIB work and photos on the same tool -------> very cool figure 1-2 hours per sample
4. Coin has to be mounted on "stub" due to vacumm ------> need to clean adhesive off one side -----> BB for cleaning!
5. Ok the stub could use some sort of friction fit --------> potential rim damage?
6. Reading the # would require a SEM --------> tAint no light scope at 100x - 200x gonna see that small a print
7. Queue time for each and every coin? --------> longer submission wait times
Don't think a PCI will spring for #1, and Russ will lose his mind waiting on AH Kennedy's
Never Happen!
<< <i>in place of etching, what would be more practical and foolproof would be to have shylock ID all coins struck to date. he's already done it with IHC's so it shouldn't be a big deal. >>
I accept shylock's word as gospel. I just don't know if he has the time to do every coin!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
NO