It's irrelevant what a dealer pays for a coin. If you know what he paid for it from you then kindly remind him, but that really has no meaning to what he is asking for his coin.
Your reputation goes a long way in this business. Don't destroy it.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i> This is how it is. The dealer didn't know who you were. Maybe this was the first call he had on it and wanted one shot at moving it for a profit. What's wrong with that? >>
No problem for that. The problem is that the dealer volunteered a lie. That is the problem.
If thinking that ethics makes one a "weenie".... >>
thank you! >>
I said the dealer LIED. No where did I say it was ethical. Lying as far as I'm concerned is unethical at the least and whoever wants can pick the worst. I hate lying. It's stupid.
chabot510, I might not have made myself clear. I wasn't suggesting that the offer be what he had paid you. I meant you could have offered him the same amount you actually did offer him in your email.
There's nothing wrong with being a Coin Weenie. Everybody else here was determined to be one in some way or another. The thread was actually pretty funny.
Lame, yes, but it shows the true colors of many posters.
chabot510 simply pointed out that the dealer lied, but immediately is put on the offensive by the hoards of flamers, confronted with a barrage of questions, called a liar himself, and generally abused.
This seems to be SOP here--been there, done that!
I'll probably be flamed for stating the obvious. As I've said in the past, if A'holes could fly, this place would be an airport!
Ummm. 4 months does not equal buried in my book. If he knowingly paid a higher price for the coin, maybe he likes it and is willing to hang on to it for a while.
Buried in a coin isn't about time; its about how much you have in it. I would think that after 4 months most dealers [esp a national one with lots of exposure] might be happy to take a small hit and put the $$$ into something more profitable.
Four month is buried unless the dealer is running a museum.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The originator titled the thread, "Dealer lying to me!" To those that do not know him, such a statement implies that he is a collector being lied to by a dealer. Not good. Now we learn that the thread originator was a bit deceptive in his dealings with the dealer and whoa! is a dealer himself (and also a YN who participates in YN giveaways, etc.). I do not condone dishonesty on anyone's part, but the originator of the thread has been somewhat less than forthright. I do not like being duped.
Finally, I, and most collectors, do not give a rat's behind about dealers lying to other dealers. As far as I am concerned, that's your business and deal with it. As has been said in other contexts here, if you are going to be a dealer, behave like one (whether you are 19 or 99 years old).
Lame, yes, but it shows the true colors of many posters.
chabot510 simply pointed out that the dealer lied, but immediately is put on the offensive by the hoards of flamers, confronted with a barrage of questions, called a liar himself, and generally abused.
This seems to be SOP here--been there, done that!
I'll probably be flamed for stating the obvious. As I've said in the past, if A'holes could fly, this place would be an airport!
How many times do you want to buy and sell the same coin for a profit. You made an offer. The offer was not accepted. Go buy something else and resell it. I think this is a common practice for coin dealers.
The cost of an item is not relevant to the market price. Why would it make any difference what someone's cost basis is in a particular coin. They may have been confused if they deal in a lot of coins, so let it go.
I think the YN program is to encourage young collectors. There may be a different program for YD (young dealers), they are not mentioned in the YNA bylaws below.
Bylaws of the Young Numismatists of America
Article II – Object It is the object of the YNA to provide a solid foundation for the young collectors of the world to build upon. Through publications, forums, a website, education, and scholarships, among other things, it is our goal to expand the numismatic horizons of our members. In addition, the YNA, while accomplishing our goals, wish to inform the general numismatic community of the great importance of our young collectors and scholars, both today and in the future.
why should the dealer sell you back your coin at a loss?
your not being fair! YOUR not paying the dealer's over head you will have to pay what the dealer wants and it makes NO difference what the dealer paid for the coin.
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
<< <i>Now we learn that the thread originator was a bit deceptive in his dealings with the dealer and whoa! is a dealer himself >>
Please explain how having knowledge of what a dealer paid and making an offer based on that knowledge is deception. What happened to the knowledge is power thing? That same dealer probly "forgets" how much he has in a coin to EVERYONE that asks; he just happened to "forget" to someone who had "knowledge". BTW I am NOT obligated to assure a dealer a profit, thats his worry not mine. I'm out to get the best deal for me. All the dealer had to say is no thanks; I have more in it than that.
Nick, from the threads, I have gathered you are a niave, deceitful SAINT that never lies. Stop being a wimp and tell us the DEALER!! I see threads like this ALL THE TIME and the dealer or whomever is never exposed for our own goodness in future dealings. If you will not give his/her name, then YOU ARE PROBABLY AT FAULT. Maybe the dealer didnt want to sell at a loss.. or doesnt NEED to sell it at a loss.
your not being fair. YOUR not paying...
PTVETTER: Get your english grammar together. It is YOU ARE or you're, not YOUR. Why do so many write like this???
May I ask why you are trying to buy back a coin you sold? Are you just playing with him to find out how much he is asking for it now or are you serious about buying it back?
Jonathan
I have been a collector for over mumbly-five years. I learn something new every day.
First of all, it's nobody's business to ask what a dealer has in a coin. You can assume, you can imagine, you can make an educated guess. You make you offer, and then negotiate.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
I think many people are being a bid hard on chabot510 even if he's a dealer. However...
Perhaps I'm a bit jaded, but I just assume any peripheral information offered by a seller (dealer or collector) is a possible fabrication. After all, the seller is simply trying to recoup his money with a possible profit to boot. No reason to give merchandise away if the buyer is sincerely interested.
If I assume statements of fact may or may not be fact, the transaction will go smoother. Coin collecting is emotional enough as it is. I don't need to get bent out of shape over how a guy haggles.
"i consider myself still a YN at 19. if i offended anyone by calling myself a YN i apologize"
chabot510: A comment for you from a crusty old guy who's seen about everything in the numismatic business: Anybody who stands up to the mostly blatent "flaming" in this thread the way you have deserves my respect, and here you have it.
I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
<< <i>You say it is a major dealer (who probably buys and sells a lot of coins), maybe the dealer incorrectly recalled the price paid. Maybe the coin was miscoded. Maybe he read his code wrong. Maybe he paid what he did because he thought it would upgrade/cross. He tried upgrading/crossing it a couple of times with no success and has added that cost to his basis. Maybe be bought one of these common coins at Baltimore at x+3y. Then you walked up with another and he only offered you x since he had just bought one. Maybe now he doesn't recall which of these common coins is which.
Why assume a lie? There are so many other possibilities.
WH >>
All good points Wayne and he might have sold the coin and bought it back at the price he quoted. Not likely but possible. Is it really anybody's business what he paid for the coin?
<<"Nick shouldn't have expected to be able to dictate to the other dealer if, when, to whom, or at what price the dealer sold the coin for.">>
He didn't try to dictate terms; he merely made an offer hoping the dealer would decide to take it and cut his losses and move on. How many dealers will give you back 100% of your purchase price after 4 months or assure you that you won't lose money on the coin if you decide to offer it back to them. Like I said he could have said no thanks I have more in it than that. Sounds like the dealer could use a little lesson in diplomacy and good business sense.
Whether the dealer lied or not is not really important.
Dealers sell their coins wanting to make a profit (actually a gross margin from which their overheads are then deducted).
When a Merchant calls himself "Honest John" or "Honest George" or "Honest Charlie" I start to raise my antennas.
Merchants in any field are not out "to get" anybody" They just do their job.
If a Merchant respects a code of ethics in terms of standing behind the quality of the goods they sell then we'll go back and buy from them again. Otherwise they will simply have added another enemy to a growing list.
Ethics and candor don't generally coincide. You can be ethical without being a fool.
Who would trust or buy from somebody that is too candid? I suspect not many of us.
I am not condoning being untruthful but I don't really expect a dealer to give me an inkling about his margins.
That's his business not mine.
All he has to do is quote me a price and I'll judge whether the price is acceptable or not. Period.
cho10
Collecting since the 1980's Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes - Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set - Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set Morgan Dollars Proof - Basic Set - Varieties Peace Circ.
<< <i>Whether the dealer lied or not is not really important.
Dealers sell their coins wanting to make a profit (actually a gross margin from which their overheads are then deducted).
When a Merchant calls himself "Honest John" or "Honest George" or "Honest Charlie" I start to raise my antennas.
Merchants in any field are not out "to get" anybody" They just do their job.
If a Merchant respects a code of ethics in terms of standing behind the quality of the goods they sell then we'll go back and buy from them again. Otherwise they will simply have added another enemy to a growing list.
Ethics and candor don't generally coincide. You can be ethical without being a fool.
Who would trust or buy from somebody that is too candid? I suspect not many of us.
I am not condoning being untruthful but I don't really expect a dealer to give me an inkling about his margins.
That's his business not mine.
All he has to do is quote me a price and I'll judge whether the price is acceptable or not. Period. >>
Looking at the original story - the dealer volunteered his purchase price as a negotiating tactic. He was not asked what his purchase price was, but volunteered it. The price he volunteered was a lie. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Looking at the many responses - I have to conclude that this message board has no problem with dishonesty from dealers or collectors.
<< <i>Looking at the original story - the dealer volunteered his purchase price as a negotiating tactic. He was not asked what his purchase price was, but volunteered it. The price he volunteered was a lie. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Looking at the many responses - I have to conclude that this message board has no problem with dishonesty from dealers or collectors. >>
My conclusion is that often scenarios like this are a lot more complex than "Bad dealer lied to naive collector." The more you dig into the details, the more murky the judgments become. And in this case, we have still only heard one side of the story.
And BTW, has a car dealer ever lied? (Sorry, Don )
<< <i> ...and we don't know the other side, do we? >>
No, we don't.
I was commenting on the responses that expect and condone a dealer and/or collector lying as a negotiating tactic. I am refering to the principles involved.
Lame, yes, but it shows the true colors of many posters.
chabot510 simply pointed out that the dealer lied, but immediately is put on the offensive by the hoards of flamers, confronted with a barrage of questions, called a liar himself, and generally abused.
This seems to be SOP here--been there, done that!
I'll probably be flamed for stating the obvious. As I've said in the past, if A'holes could fly, this place would be an airport!
Majorbigtime, Chief Pilot
>>
>>
Yessir, Chief Pilot MajorBT, reporting to you and your cronies as Head of Intelligence (sic), Command Center, General Services and Flame Retards!
A sure sign of a liar is a person who claims to be 100% honest. Still, I wish the level of deception in our hobby among collectors and dealers was less.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
<< <i>I was commenting on the responses that expect and condone a dealer and/or collector lying as a negotiating tactic. >>
It appears you're having a difficult time discerning the difference between "expect" and "condone". I haven't seen anybody in this thread condone lying, but many - at least those who didn't just fall off the turnip truck - do expect it to happen.
<< <i>Yessir, Chief Pilot MajorBT, reporting to you and your cronies as Head of Intelligence (sic), Command Center, General Services and Flame Retards!
<< <i>Yessir, Chief Pilot MajorBT, reporting to you and your cronies as Head of Intelligence (sic), Command Center, General Services and Flame Retards!
Have you been drinking?? >>
He's a teetotaller. He really is that stupid.
Russ, NCNE >>
"Stupid is as stupid does"--Forrest Gump. To paraphraise Forrest, "posting on these boards is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get".
<< <i>Yessir, Chief Pilot MajorBT, reporting to you and your cronies as Head of Intelligence (sic), Command Center, General Services and Flame Retards!
Comments
I think you deserve y dollars.
You loaned him the coin for a chance for him to profit so you're entitled to it.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
if you want it at the price he is willing to sell it at........................... buy it
if not pass
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
Your reputation goes a long way in this business. Don't destroy it.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> This is how it is. The dealer didn't know who you were. Maybe this was the first call he had on it and wanted one shot at moving it for a profit. What's wrong with that? >>
No problem for that. The problem is that the dealer volunteered a lie. That is the problem.
If thinking that ethics makes one a "weenie".... >>
thank you! >>
I said the dealer LIED. No where did I say it was ethical. Lying as far as I'm concerned is unethical at the least and whoever wants can pick the worst. I hate lying. It's stupid.
chabot510, I might not have made myself clear. I wasn't suggesting that the offer be what he had paid you. I meant you could have offered him the same amount you actually did offer him in your email.
There's nothing wrong with being a Coin Weenie. Everybody else here was determined to be one in some way or another. The thread was actually pretty funny.
Jerry
<< <i>lame thread who cares
>>
Lame, yes, but it shows the true colors of many posters.
chabot510 simply pointed out that the dealer lied, but immediately is put on the offensive by the hoards of flamers, confronted with a barrage of questions, called a liar himself, and generally abused.
This seems to be SOP here--been there, done that!
I'll probably be flamed for stating the obvious. As I've said in the past, if A'holes could fly, this place would be an airport!
<< <i>if A'holes could fly, this place would be an airport! >>
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The originator titled the thread, "Dealer lying to me!" To those that do not know him, such a statement implies that he is a collector being lied to by a dealer. Not good. Now we learn that the thread originator was a bit deceptive in his dealings with the dealer and whoa! is a dealer himself (and also a YN who participates in YN giveaways, etc.). I do not condone dishonesty on anyone's part, but the originator of the thread has been somewhat less than forthright. I do not like being duped.
Finally, I, and most collectors, do not give a rat's behind about dealers lying to other dealers. As far as I am concerned, that's your business and deal with it. As has been said in other contexts here, if you are going to be a dealer, behave like one (whether you are 19 or 99 years old).
What he paid for the coin in no way affects how much I am willing to pay for it.
Joe.
<< <i>
<< <i>lame thread who cares
>>
Lame, yes, but it shows the true colors of many posters.
chabot510 simply pointed out that the dealer lied, but immediately is put on the offensive by the hoards of flamers, confronted with a barrage of questions, called a liar himself, and generally abused.
This seems to be SOP here--been there, done that!
I'll probably be flamed for stating the obvious. As I've said in the past, if A'holes could fly, this place would be an airport!
Majorbigtime, Chief Pilot
>>
<< <i>I'll probably be flamed for stating the obvious. As I've said in the past, if A'holes could fly, this place would be an airport!
<< <i>
<< <i>Majorbigtime, Chief Pilot >>
Now that is just too funny
The cost of an item is not relevant to the market price. Why would it make any difference what someone's cost basis is in a particular coin. They may have been confused if they deal in a lot of coins, so let it go.
I think the YN program is to encourage young collectors. There may be a different program for YD (young dealers), they are not mentioned in the YNA bylaws below.
Bylaws of the Young Numismatists of America
Article II – Object
It is the object of the YNA to provide a solid foundation for the young collectors of the world to build upon. Through publications, forums, a website, education, and scholarships, among other things, it is our goal to expand the numismatic horizons of our members. In addition, the YNA, while accomplishing our goals, wish to inform the general numismatic community of the great importance of our young collectors and scholars, both today and in the future.
Currently Listed: Nothing
Take Care, Dave
<< <i>Finally, I, and most collectors, do not give a rat's behind about dealers lying to other dealers. >>
Isn't that SOP?
Russ, NCNE
your not being fair! YOUR not paying the dealer's over head you will have to pay what the dealer wants and it makes NO difference what the dealer paid for the coin.
If I had a penny for every lie I've heard, I'd be richer than Bill Gates.
It's called bidness.
Mike
<< <i>Now we learn that the thread originator was a bit deceptive in his dealings with the dealer and whoa! is a dealer himself >>
Please explain how having knowledge of what a dealer paid and making an offer based on that knowledge is deception. What happened to the knowledge is power thing? That same dealer probly "forgets" how much he has in a coin to EVERYONE that asks; he just happened to "forget" to someone who had "knowledge". BTW I am NOT obligated to assure a dealer a profit, thats his worry not mine. I'm out to get the best deal for me. All the dealer had to say is no thanks; I have more in it than that.
The deception was not revealing himself as the person who sold the dealer the coin in the first place. It has nothing to do with the offer.
Nick, from the threads, I have gathered you are a niave, deceitful SAINT that never lies. Stop being a wimp and tell us the DEALER!! I see threads like this ALL THE TIME and the dealer or whomever is never exposed for our own goodness in future dealings. If you will not give his/her name, then YOU ARE PROBABLY AT FAULT. Maybe the dealer didnt want to sell at a loss.. or doesnt NEED to sell it at a loss.
your not being fair. YOUR not paying...
PTVETTER: Get your english grammar together. It is YOU ARE or you're, not YOUR. Why do so many write like this???
O.K., have to land. Calling the tower...
Well, Dealers can whine...
I just don't think we should have to listen to it...
Jonathan
Joe.
Perhaps I'm a bit jaded, but I just assume any peripheral information offered by a seller (dealer or collector) is a possible fabrication. After all, the seller is simply trying to recoup his money with a possible profit to boot. No reason to give merchandise away if the buyer is sincerely interested.
If I assume statements of fact may or may not be fact, the transaction will go smoother. Coin collecting is emotional enough as it is. I don't need to get bent out of shape over how a guy haggles.
chabot510: A comment for you from a crusty old guy who's seen about everything in the numismatic business:
Anybody who stands up to the mostly blatent "flaming" in this thread the way you have deserves my respect, and here you have it.
<< <i>Why does so many write like this???
Joe. >>
Why dose people complain about the way we right? we dose get hour point acrosst doesn't we?
I mean after all we aint english teachers (I hope).
One of my worstest subjects.
pz
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
<< <i>You say it is a major dealer (who probably buys and sells a lot of coins), maybe the dealer incorrectly recalled the price paid.
Maybe the coin was miscoded.
Maybe he read his code wrong.
Maybe he paid what he did because he thought it would upgrade/cross. He tried upgrading/crossing it a couple of times with no success and has added that cost to his basis.
Maybe be bought one of these common coins at Baltimore at x+3y. Then you walked up with another and he only offered you x since he had just bought one. Maybe now he doesn't recall which of these common coins is which.
Why assume a lie? There are so many other possibilities.
WH >>
All good points Wayne and he might have sold the coin and bought it back at the price he quoted. Not likely but possible. Is it really anybody's business what he paid for the coin?
He didn't try to dictate terms; he merely made an offer hoping the dealer would decide to take it and cut his losses and move on. How many dealers will give you back 100% of your purchase price after 4 months or assure you that you won't lose money on the coin if you decide to offer it back to them. Like I said he could have said no thanks I have more in it than that. Sounds like the dealer could use a little lesson in diplomacy and good business sense.
Dealers sell their coins wanting to make a profit (actually a gross margin from which their overheads are then deducted).
When a Merchant calls himself "Honest John" or "Honest George" or "Honest Charlie" I start to raise my antennas.
Merchants in any field are not out "to get" anybody" They just do their job.
If a Merchant respects a code of ethics in terms of standing behind the quality of the goods they sell then we'll go back and buy from them again. Otherwise they will simply have added another enemy to a growing list.
Ethics and candor don't generally coincide. You can be ethical without being a fool.
Who would trust or buy from somebody that is too candid? I suspect not many of us.
I am not condoning being untruthful but I don't really expect a dealer to give me an inkling about his margins.
That's his business not mine.
All he has to do is quote me a price and I'll judge whether the price is acceptable or not. Period.
Collecting since the 1980's
Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes
- Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set
- Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set
Morgan Dollars Proof
- Basic Set - Varieties
Peace Circ.
<< <i>Whether the dealer lied or not is not really important.
Dealers sell their coins wanting to make a profit (actually a gross margin from which their overheads are then deducted).
When a Merchant calls himself "Honest John" or "Honest George" or "Honest Charlie" I start to raise my antennas.
Merchants in any field are not out "to get" anybody" They just do their job.
If a Merchant respects a code of ethics in terms of standing behind the quality of the goods they sell then we'll go back and buy from them again. Otherwise they will simply have added another enemy to a growing list.
Ethics and candor don't generally coincide. You can be ethical without being a fool.
Who would trust or buy from somebody that is too candid? I suspect not many of us.
I am not condoning being untruthful but I don't really expect a dealer to give me an inkling about his margins.
That's his business not mine.
All he has to do is quote me a price and I'll judge whether the price is acceptable or not. Period. >>
BINGO!
Looking at the many responses - I have to conclude that this message board has no problem with dishonesty from dealers or collectors.
<< <i>Looking at the original story - the dealer volunteered his purchase price as a negotiating tactic. He was not asked what his purchase price was, but volunteered it. The price he volunteered was a lie. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Looking at the many responses - I have to conclude that this message board has no problem with dishonesty from dealers or collectors. >>
Thanks for your holier-than-thou conclusion.
And BTW, has a car dealer ever lied? (Sorry, Don
<< <i>Thanks for your holier-than-thou conclusion. >>
Just looking at the responses...
A lie is a lie.
<< <i> ...and we don't know the other side, do we? >>
No, we don't.
I was commenting on the responses that expect and condone a dealer and/or collector lying as a negotiating tactic. I am refering to the principles involved.
Edited for proper quote
I think it's time to let this thread go-
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>lame thread who cares
>>
Lame, yes, but it shows the true colors of many posters.
chabot510 simply pointed out that the dealer lied, but immediately is put on the offensive by the hoards of flamers, confronted with a barrage of questions, called a liar himself, and generally abused.
This seems to be SOP here--been there, done that!
I'll probably be flamed for stating the obvious. As I've said in the past, if A'holes could fly, this place would be an airport!
Majorbigtime, Chief Pilot
>>
Yessir, Chief Pilot MajorBT, reporting to you and your cronies as Head of Intelligence (sic), Command Center, General Services and Flame Retards!
Have you been drinking??
<< <i>I was commenting on the responses that expect and condone a dealer and/or collector lying as a negotiating tactic. >>
It appears you're having a difficult time discerning the difference between "expect" and "condone". I haven't seen anybody in this thread condone lying, but many - at least those who didn't just fall off the turnip truck - do expect it to happen.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Yessir, Chief Pilot MajorBT, reporting to you and your cronies as Head of Intelligence (sic), Command Center, General Services and Flame Retards!
Have you been drinking?? >>
He's a teetotaller. He really is that stupid.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Yessir, Chief Pilot MajorBT, reporting to you and your cronies as Head of Intelligence (sic), Command Center, General Services and Flame Retards!
Have you been drinking?? >>
He's a teetotaller. He really is that stupid.
Russ, NCNE >>
"Stupid is as stupid does"--Forrest Gump. To paraphraise Forrest, "posting on these boards is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get".
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Yessir, Chief Pilot MajorBT, reporting to you and your cronies as Head of Intelligence (sic), Command Center, General Services and Flame Retards!
Have you been drinking?? >>
He's a teetotaller. He really is that stupid.
Russ, NCNE >>
*************
I didn't even graduate from the eighth grade.
Russ, NCNE
. >>
Ahah!!!