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Cuds

NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
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The first coin is an 1806/inv6 O.111"b" terminal die state with very rare double cuds, probably R.6 in this die state.

The next coin is 1795 O.103a, the largest cud in the Flowing Hair half dollar series, an R.5 die marriage and possibly R.6 with the cud.

There are 12 full rim cuds found on half dollars from 1794-1806, eleven of these are on the reverse. All of these cuds originated from emerging stress die cracks that progressed until a piece of the die fell out. The reverse die was probably the hammer die, as most obverse cuds are retained cuds on 1794-1806 halves - the cracked die piece could not fall out of the anvil die as easily.

I am not aware of any full rim cuds in the 1807-1836 CBHLE series, as the forging, hardening, and tempering of working dies improved during this period. There are some retained cuds and internal die chips for these years.

Cuds represent terminal die states and are some of the most interesting coins to collect.

Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver

Comments

  • Speaking of Cuds, I have one that I sent off to the "writer" of "The CUD book". It was an unlisted cud and he gave me credit and a new list number and all. Then the guy became ill and sold all of his info off to another guy (These guys are well known, I just forget their names because I'm a dumb ass). I contacted the new guy and never really got an answer on if/when the cud books will continue on with suplements or not. So, I have a plate coin for a book that may never be published image
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,340 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I love cuds image The favorite one I have is an 1832 CB half dime with a retained obverse cud.

    image
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 47,501 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In an earlier thread, someone said rim cuds couldn't happen on coins struck in an open collar. I guess this proves otherwise.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the pictures and the education. I would love to have either of your pictured coins.image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • *drool*

    I have 3 Half-Dimes with cuds... I need to take pictures image
    -George
    42/92
  • PreTurbPreTurb Posts: 1,198 ✭✭✭
    There may exist a 1795 O-123 with a reverse cud that is larger than the O-103a... I have not seen it, however.
  • 1921-D VAM-1X, largest cud in the morgan series. Wish this baby were mine!

    Rob

    image

    image

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    Rob Joyce - Dollar Variety / VAM Collector
    http://www.vamworld.com
    and
    http://www.rjrc.com
  • OH! OH! Someone said the magic word!

    My 1839-O Half Dime!


    image

    PURPLE!
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,340 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That one is really cool purp!
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for sharing folks!
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • TomBTomB Posts: 22,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a very interesting topic and I am thankful to those who took the time to image their cool coins.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image


  • << <i>That one is really cool purp! >>




    It's my only coin with a Cud.

    It's a V-6 VLDS(very late die state) (thank you Mr. Steve Crane)

    Dunno the rarity but I haven't seen one like it yet.

    PURPLE!
  • And my best lincoln cud (there are better out there but this is my biggest).

    1988-P

    image
    Rob Joyce - Dollar Variety / VAM Collector
    http://www.vamworld.com
    and
    http://www.rjrc.com
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    image
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • CladiatorCladiator Posts: 18,340 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>image >>

    Sweet....it's a 2fer...2 errors on one coin image
  • Same cud but different coins:
    imageimage
  • Jason,
    That's cool... I often see similar (but not completely exact) die breaks on different 1921-D dies. It appears that there are inherent stress points that are more likely to break than others. It seems the area on your coin is such a weak point. Thanks for sharing!

    Rob
    Rob Joyce - Dollar Variety / VAM Collector
    http://www.vamworld.com
    and
    http://www.rjrc.com
  • LeeGLeeG Posts: 12,162
    Got a 2C with a Cud and some die cracks. Great Pic's guys.image

    image


  • << <i>Jason,
    That's cool... I often see similar (but not completely exact) die breaks on different 1921-D dies. It appears that there are inherent stress points that are more likely to break than others. It seems the area on your coin is such a weak point. Thanks for sharing!

    Rob >>



    No prob. I sold both of these coins to Pete Bishal (RIP) a couple of years ago.
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PreTurb,

    Thanks for the info on 1795 O.123. Thanks also to those who posted interesting cuds of other denominations, I would like to start a partial US type set of coins with cuds.

    Another cud to chew on:

    image

    image

    This is 1806/5 O.104a R.5 with a partially retained reverse cud and a heavy obverse die crack star 11-13. This overdate has the distinction of being the only bust half overdate from a previously used obverse die. The reverse was also used on four different die marriages in 1805, and both dies quickly failed on 1806/5 O.104b. This die marriage is very difficult to find, the Overton plate O.104b is an incredible coin with two full rim cuds.
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • Jason, On this 1989 P cent the cud is in the same place as yours only on the rev. Do you know if/when they switched
    to vertical press' whare there would be no hammer or anvil die?





    image

    As Barndog pointed out you can see the weakness opposite the cud.

    image
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,525 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is the reverse of an 1836 LM-1.2/V-5 (R-5) Capped Bust Half Dime with a nice cud:

    image

    This photo of the same coin's obverse shows the effect of the cud on the impression (or lack thereof) of stars 3 and 4:

    image
  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A question was asked on another thread as to when the term "cud" was first used in numismatics. Walter Breen in his Encyclopedia of US Coins attributed the term to error coin author Del Ford.

    Does anyone know of an earlier reference? Is Breen correct in attributing the term to Del Ford?
    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm a big fan of cracks, cuds, and other late die state phenomenon such as star and letter "drawing" toward the edges, and of course the tremendous luster around the periphery of higher grade LDS coins. Thanks for a great thread Nysoto image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    For anyone interested in cuds appearing on the early Federal coinage, there was an article in the February 2005 issue of the John Reich Journal (official publication of the John Reich Collectors Society) detailing all known cuds on Capped Bust half dimes. There are a total of twenty-four (24) known cuds in the CB half dime series, and all are pictured. In the June 2005 issue of the JR Journal, James Matthews presented an article on the known cuds on CB dimes. This is a fascinating aspect of numismatics, and an interesting subset to collect.

    Incidentally, I had found the same reference to Del Ford, error coin author, as the source of the illogical term 'cud', and included that in my article. I would be very interested to learn of any additional information on the origin of the term.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • I found the plate coin for the new CUD book supplement (if there ever is another one).
    image
  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 7,804 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image

    I call it the "Scalped Indian" ... barely retained cud, or one heck of a die crack, depending how you look at it


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • '82 Lincoln found in a bank roll.

    image
    - -

    Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies.
  • That 1839-O half dime is one of the pieces I think of when someone says that in order to be a cud it has to involve the edge of the coin. That triagular area that swollows up the D of UNITED I think qualifies as an internal cud.
    image
    In earlier die states that area is outlined by three die cracks. Eventually the cracks deepened, joined, and a piece fell out of the die forming a cud. This is not a case of just the edges of the crack chipping away to form a huge die chip.

    Some have said that it has to include the edge because it has to involve the shank of the die. Well the shank is not just around the edge. Anything below the die face is also part of the shank so this qualifies in that respect as well. It just took part of the center of the shank.
  • Here is an image of the only REAL "internal cud" that I have ever seen. The coin and image belong to board member Seanq. I waited for a couple of days for you to post it Sean and I couldn't wait any longer image
    image
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Two circulation finds

    image

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