IF YOU THINK YOU'RE SAFE WITH PAYPAL: READ THIS! Guarantee = Worthless!

joefro · August 24, 2005 10:34AM

Just got the results of my first claim dispute through paypal. I always thought if you were screwed and they decided in your favor, you would get your money back....

<< 
Dear Joe Fronczek,

After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer
Complaint described below.

We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds
from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery
of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.

We will make our best effort to recover the funds in question if they
become available in the seller's account in the future. Please be assured
that we will also take appropriate action against the seller's account,
which may include limitation of the seller's account privileges.

-----------------------------------
Details of Disputed Transaction
-----------------------------------

Transaction Date: Jul 4, 2005
Transaction Amount: -$18.99 USD >>

So where is the buyer protection???

TorinoCobra71 · August 24, 2005 10:43AM

Bummer, "you got screwed™"

RUSS, NC errrrrrrrrrrrrr......... TorinoCobra71

p8nt · August 24, 2005 10:46AM

They just decided in favor on mine too. But they only got me $65 of the $90 and said I need to work with the seller for the rest. Yeah right, like that will ever happen. Why do they think we filed disputes on the first place?... because the seller wont work with us of course!

Joe, sorry to hear that, but at least yours was only $19. It could have been MUCH more painful.

joefro · August 24, 2005 10:53AM

Definitely could have been worse... but of course it's the principle that counts here! $20 is $20!

My question is... shouldn't PAYPAL be responsible for refunding my money? I mean, how many scammers actually have the money in their account? The claim center is worthless. I always thought the point of paypal was to have a safe middleman to take responsibility... but it seems they claim no responsibility at all.

777 · August 24, 2005 10:58AM

They say use paypal on ebay instead of checks; then your safe from fraud...

[No-ones safe] I had better start buying sight-seen only... Then I know Im safe... As a seller; only accept checks; then you know your safe also... Fraud has become a major concern.... Something must be done about this

Cameonut · August 24, 2005 11:10AM

I had one a year or so ago - same thing - I got stiffed for $75.

So my experience is that the Paypal Guarantee acutually guarantees nothing. You have experienced the scam that is one of the best kept secrets within the Ebay/Paypal community.

If Meg Whitman ever has an open forum in our area - I intend to ask her to define the Paypal Guarantee. I can't wait to hear the answer.

tlhoy · August 24, 2005 11:14AM

relayer · August 24, 2005 11:53AM

PayPal will hold the amount in dispute from the account until it's resolved, but if the seller already withdrew it...

ziggy29 · August 24, 2005 12:00PM

That's crap. They make money hand over fist, and can't make you whole for a lousy 19 bucks even if they CAN'T recover anything?!?!

kranky · August 24, 2005 12:04PM

Ooh, I don't think they would do that. That would move the risk from the customer to PayPal!

ttown · August 24, 2005 12:07PM

One more reason why you should always use your credit card on Paypal transactions. If you'd done that and Paypal couldn't give you the money you could go back on your Visa or American Express.

Russ · August 24, 2005 12:10PM

Joe,

Did you pay buy credit card? If so, file a chargeback. If you paid by instant transfer from your checking account, you may even be able to file a chargeback. Some banks allow that on ACH transfers. If you paid with PayPal balance, though, it looks like you're SOL.

Russ, NCNE

ddink · August 24, 2005 12:18PM

People will just never get it. You are not safe unless you pay with a credit card. Why is it so difficult to get that through people's skulls?

ddink · August 24, 2005 12:21PM

<<Just got the results of my first claim dispute through paypal. I always thought if you were screwed and they decided in your favor, you would get your money back....>>

<<We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds
from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery
of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed. [emphasis mine]>>

Always a good idea to actually read the user agreement instead of just clicking "accept." That helps prevent misconceptions such as this. Nothing against you personally, but when I worked at ADT, people would have a fit over various things, and I'd ask "did you read your contract?" The answer? "Well no, but..."

bgrice · August 24, 2005 12:43PM

I just ran into a screwed up deal myself with Paypal. I have transacted well over $20K worth of misc. items through their *so-called* service via the buyer & seller side through my CC or bank account and earlier this week I had to give someone a refund on an auction due to that they did not like the item. It was the first time I've had to do it. The *trolls* don't have a problem with paying out of my accounts(checking mostly) when it comes to new business, but with the refund they put the funds as *uncleared* for 4-5 business days to the buyer. I rarely keep any funds in the account and withdraw unless I know of something I might be interested in buying, so the account was at zero. Are they doing this because they are losing the precious $3.41 in refunded fees that they have to fork back over?

Either way..... they are azz-hats!

librtyhead · August 24, 2005 12:44PM

E-BAY is a scam only on a larger scale EVERYTHING in the agreement is geared toward THEM making money.go to a show a dealer but NEVER buy on these auctions security is run by the three stooges!!!!!!!!!

Myqqy · August 24, 2005 1:23PM

Sorry that you got stiffed™..... but this thread is a good reminder about using a credit card through paypal.......

relayer · August 24, 2005 2:24PM

If you file a chargeback against PayPal through your credit card company, PayPal will close your account.

You agreed to that when you signed up with PayPal.

100proof1957 · August 24, 2005 2:32PM

2centsin !

ddink · August 24, 2005 11:05PM

<< If you file a chargeback against PayPal through your credit card company, PayPal will close your account. >>

No they won't. Had a guy rip me off one time (never delivered the item), did a PayPal chargeback and filed a credit card chargeback on the same day. Couple weeks later PayPal emails me saying that next time I should use the buyer complaint process (I did, but since it was a virtual item, then ruled against me).

EDITED to get rid of the rambling

Conder101 · August 24, 2005 11:34PM

<< That's crap. They make money hand over fist, and can't make you whole for a lousy 19 bucks even if they CAN'T recover anything?!?! >>

If he had paid by check and gotten taken would you be expecting the bank to give him his money back?

THEONLYTBONE · August 24, 2005 11:39PM

<< 

<< If you file a chargeback against PayPal through your credit card company, PayPal will close your account. >>

No they won't. Had a guy rip me off one time (never delivered the item), did a PayPal chargeback and filed a credit card chargeback on the same day. Couple weeks later PayPal emails me saying that they did not find in my favor (it was a virtual item). Next day the credit card company said they had found in my favor and processed the chargeback. PayPal emailed me saying that next time I should use the Buyer Complaint Process (I already had!) and they COULD close my PayPal account (per the EULA) if they were inclined to do so (apparently they weren't, because two years later here I am).

If they close your account, big deal. Just use a family member's name to open another. >>

I closed my account myself and havent bid on e-bay since........I got burned for 300 bucks and it took 3 months for my CC to credit back.........

BillJones · August 24, 2005 11:43PM

Paypal sucks.

I read these complaints from buyers, and I know dealers who hate it because they have been screwed too. It makes you wonder how they stay in business.

When I buy something I write a check. If the seller won't take checks, he does not sell anything to me.

carl · August 24, 2005 11:58PM

Just one more reason I have never bought anything from EBAY and never will.

PerryHall · August 25, 2005 12:07AM

<< Paypal sucks.

I read these complaints from buyers, and I know dealers who hate it because they have been screwed too. It makes you wonder how they stay in business.

When I buy something I write a check. If the seller won't take checks, he does not sell anything to me. >>

ddink · August 25, 2005 12:17AM

<<
Paypal sucks.

I read these complaints from buyers, and I know dealers who hate it because they have been screwed too. It makes you wonder how they stay in business.

When I buy something I write a check. If the seller won't take checks, he does not sell anything to me.
>>

They stay in business because to 99% of people they are an extremely valuable service. When I buy something, I pay with PayPal. If the seller won't take PayPal, he does not sell anything to me. In fact, when I see that he doesn't take PayPal, I hit the back button on my browser without reading the rest of the auction.

WaterSport · August 25, 2005 12:34AM

For myself, I have never been impressed with Pay pal and have never used it. The fact that some one will only accept it as payment makes me raise my brow. While it can save days for getting your purchase paid for and thus the seller can immediately put what you won in the mail, there is not garentee he/she will even do that for you.

WS

PerryHall · August 25, 2005 12:51AM

<< 
They stay in business because to 99% of people they are an extremely valuable service. When I buy something, I pay with PayPal. If the seller won't take PayPal, he does not sell anything to me. In fact, when I see that he doesn't take PayPal, I hit the back button on my browser without reading the rest of the auction. >>

ddink---It sounds like you miss out on a lot of good deals.

ddink · August 25, 2005 9:36AM

<< ddink---It sounds like you miss out on a lot of good deals. >>

Nope. 95% of the auctions I'm interested in accept PayPal. The other 5% of the time I pay a few dollars more and buy the same thing from another seller who accepts PayPal.

ttown · August 25, 2005 9:52AM

If you want to lose your hard earned money pay by check. When I see a seller won't take PayPal it says SCAM to me, most frauds want a cashiers or personal check. When I see they don't offer Paypal or Credit Card I don't bid period unless I know the seller. PayPal and CC is the best protection, that is unless someone steals their database and they have my card and my bank account info

bushmaster8 · August 25, 2005 11:01AM

<< Just one more reason I have never bought anything from EBAY and never will. >>

Carl, it seems you can't see the forest for the trees!

This is not an Ebay problem, it is a PAYPAL problem.

PAYPAL BLOWS!!!

joefro · August 25, 2005 12:24PM

Wow I had no idea my feelings toward Paypal were so common. Unfortunately, I paid with a Visa Debit card which was a direct transfer from my bank account. Im only a college student, and I suppose I could buy these using the 1 credit card I have, but being so young I pay a 12% interest rate. I know, I know... I can always pay it off immediately... but I always liked the instant debit from my account with no hassles... until now.

I also find it interesting how people's views differ so greatly regarding the use of Paypal and auctions that do or don't accept it. I find there are good deals to be had with money order/personal check auctions because less people bid on them these days. I think both methods have their up and down sides. Oh well.. luckily I'm poor so it's impossible for me to get burned too bad. Always learning....

ddink · August 25, 2005 12:39PM

Joefro: I buy everything (food, gas, etc.) with my credit card, then once a month I log onto my credit card's website and have them debit my bill from my bank account. I've found this to be convenient, plus it's better than using a debit card. If someone steal's your credit card number, you don't have to pay the charges. If someone steals your debit card number, the bank will (probably) give you your money back, but in the meantime all your accounts are empty!

I'm just a college kid too, so I know the feeling!

IwantNonCCs · August 25, 2005 12:55PM

First, in your case, if the auction listing had a paypal Buyers protection in the listing, I believe you
have to file a seperate claim for reimbursement under that program.

I have heard all the horror stories, read the paypal sucks website, but still believe your better off
and have better protection then sending a check to someone you don't know.

I have done several complaints, here are my results:

1. Paid for an item not received. Waited too long to file paypal complaint so I filed with credit
card company, got reimbursed. Got the warning, file paypal complaint first or we can close you
account letter. Amount was about $16. Lesson learned, file right away.

2. Bought 10 rolls of silver eagles for $1500 from a power seller. He kept giving excuses, so
after 29 days filed complaint. I think he was trying to buy somewhere to fill the order. Paypal
found in my favor and send me about $1180. They said that is all the could recover, but were
continuing to trying. they froze his account, so of course no more money coming in. He ended
up sending me a couple of rolls to make up for the difference, really pissed I wouldn't trust him.
i would have filed credit card complaint but didn't get that far.

3. Bought 5 GSA buy it now for $800. They guy emailed me the next day saying their was a
problem with me order and he would send me a refund by western union. Something fishy, I
told him to reject the payment then, not send me money a different way (probably a mo paid
for with a bad credit card I was afraid.) Did a little research and found out he had sold the same
lot, same pictures to someone in NY the prior month, who had left him positive feedback.
Obviously he sold something he knew he didn't have. Paypal found in my favor but could only
recover $20. I disputed with credit card at that point and the refunded rest. Didn't receive
a letter from paypal that time.

4. Most recently, single roll of silver eagles. Another power seller playing dumb, didn't know
what might have happened, couldn't figure it out. I filed dispute at 29 days and wrote him of what happened
to previous power seller losing paypal ability for 4 months, got refund right away.

Guess my advise on paypal is simple.

1. Always pay by credit card.
2. Be on top of things, don't delay.
3. Now I use the paypal buyers credit, which allows for unlimited protection. I usually
get the item before the bill it shows up on due date.
4. never pay directly from checking/debit. There is a reason that is the default, it protects them
best, not you.
5. Know the rules.

fishcooker · August 25, 2005 12:56PM

If there was a way for you to determine their Federal Tax ID or SSN, you could at least get some satisfaction from filing an IRS 1099 for the amount scammed. Then they would have to pay income taxes on it.

librtyhead · August 31, 2005 11:53AM

Do not use E-BAY it is not a good venture period...................................did I say period? I meant DO NOT USE E-BAY go to a dealer,a show,anything, have the coin in hand before you buy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

majorbigtime · September 1, 2005 11:43AM

<< 
So my experience is that the Paypal Guarantee acutually guarantees nothing. . >>

The same is true with so-called Ebay "Buyer Protection"--about as much protection as a broken condom!

MS70ORBUST · September 1, 2005 12:08PM

<< One more reason why you should always use your credit card on Paypal transactions. If you'd done that and Paypal couldn't give you the money you could go back on your Visa or American Express.

>>

You are very RIGHT,

and mastercard. Very true, I have been here. If you use a funded pay pal account, you deserve to get screwed!!!!

Nocerino18 · September 1, 2005 12:22PM

I use paypal for any purchase I can. I pay with discover card. They are the best to dispute a charge with, you are ALWAYS right. I have disputed about 10 things over the last 3 years and I won every single one. They credit your account instantly. I pay my discover card every month in full on their website directly from my checking. Paypal has never cancelled or suspended my account for disputing with discover.

KurtHorn · September 2, 2005 12:53AM

I just filed my first PayPal dispute. It was for items off of the BST forum. I never got the items and I don't really expect to recover anything, and, I feel bad for the seller. I think he's a nice guy in a jam. But, I still want my money back...

-Kurt-

flaminio · September 2, 2005 3:08AM

No form of money transfer is 100% safe. Checks bounce. Money orders are forged. Credit cards are stolen. PayPal doesn't find the money. Whatever. If you're going to play the game, you got to accept that sometimes you get tackled. It's the nature of the beast. If one is not prepared to accept this, just board yourself up in your house. It's a dangerous world out there; better to just stay in bed.

joefro · September 2, 2005 7:50AM

For the most part I agree with you flaminio. However, there are certain rules and laws that have been put in place to protect consumers and basically our economy. In my opinion Paypal is guilty of false advertising. Sure if you read through 200 pages of fine print you will eventually find the part where they screw you over... but it is still against the law to state one thing, and then blatantly contradict yourself in fine print.

Blockbuster video even started getting in trouble when they had those commercials all over TV advertising "No More Late Fees"... and when thousands of people started complaining when they got charged late fees Blockbuster said.. "Oh, it says that is at participating stores only, and we don't participate". Thing is, almost NO stores chose to participate and the entire promotion ended up being a scam. As a result Blockbuster changed the entire advertising campaign, took a lot of crap and lost a lot of business.

Here is a DIRECT QUOTE from PAYPAL's website:

<< 
Funding Confirmation Secure Transaction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paying with your bank account offers the highest level of PayPal protection and security, plus these advantages:

This payment is eligible for up to $1,000.00 USD of coverage with PayPal Buyer Protection
Instant Payment -- Bank account payments are processed instantly
Convenience -- Paying with your bank account means that your payments always go through -- instantly.
Note: Sellers with Personal accounts cannot receive credit card payments. Any PayPal user can receive bank account payments.
Safety -- Your bank account information is kept safe through the highest grade commercially available encryption and is covered 100% against unauthorized use

Do you still want to make this payment with a credit card? >>

HAHAHAHA WTF!?!?! Then this one follows:

<< When you use PayPal to pay for a qualified listing on eBay, PayPal Buyer Protection provides up to $1,000.00 USD of coverage at no additional cost. Additional coverage may apply if you use PayPal Buyer Credit to pay for an item. >>

<--- What additional coverage?

I don't care where in the fine print it says they will ultimately screw you no matter what... but these entire quotes ARE NOTHING BUT BULLS*** WITH NOTHING TO BACK THEM UP.

I REALLY find it funny that they try to convince you NOT to pay with a credit card, apparently the only safe way to pay since they have NOTHING to do with paypal or eBay.
I hate being harsh on this forum.. but phuck paypals protection!

IwantNonCCs · September 2, 2005 12:01PM

YEP, your payment was secured. 100% secure in getting your payment to seller.

(nobody said anything about being secure in receiving your item, we just
made sure the seller securely got your money)

JJacks · September 2, 2005 12:08PM

I got screwed once where someone broke into my PP account and charged some $ up, etc. I got it back through the CC company, but will NOT use PP anymore because of how they treated me and the situation. Period. If they can't guarantee me 100% safety then they deserve to lose customers. I will not use Paypal for buying or selling ever again.

JJacks

ddink · September 2, 2005 12:30PM

<< This payment is eligible for up to $1,000.00 USD of coverage with PayPal Buyer Protection >>

Are you not aware of what the words "up to" mean? That means from zero dollars UP TO $1000. The entire User Agreement is 13 pages long, not 200; nonetheless, that's a lot of legalese to wade through. Fortunately for those who are interested in learning about PayPal's seller protections policies, this little gem is right at top:

<<
Privacy Policy (April 15, 2005)
Closing Accounts and Limiting Account Access (February 7, 2003)
Electronic Fund Transfer Rights and Error Resolution Policy (April 13, 2004)
Seller Protection Policy (June 28, 2005)
Buyer Complaint Policy (June 17, 2005)
Buyer Credit Policy (January 14, 2005)
PayPal Buyer Protection Policy (June 28, 2005)
Money Back Guarantee Policy (January 14, 2005)
Payments (Sending, Receiving, and Withdrawals) Policy (August 19, 2005)
Premier and Business Account Policy (May 13, 2005)
Fees Policy (June 17, 2005)
PayPal Shops Policy (September 26, 2003)
Debit Card Policy (March 23, 2005)
Ebay Billing (March 11, 2005)
Acceptable Use Policy (January 14, 2005)
Bonus Policy (January 14, 2005)
Preapproved Payments Policy (May 13, 2005)
>>

Wow, a table of contents with LINKS to the relevant parts of the document. Joefro, if you went to a car dealership and bought a car, would you read the contract or just sign on the dotted line? If you opened an investment account, retained an attorney, closed a business deal, or bought a house, would you read the contract or just sign without reading? I'm with you--when I buy a new computer game, I click "accept" on the EULA without reading. But when I open a bank or PayPal or credit card account--something that directly impacts my finances, you better believe I read the agreement before I accept it. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I just don't see the excuse for not reading a financially-important contract before you sign.

Maybe I've read too many "sweepstakes"-esque letters and emails, but when I see the words "up to," I completely ignore the entire thing. "You could win up to a million dollars!" Yeah, I'm sure I could win between $0.00 and $1,000,000--into the shredder you go!

IF YOU THINK YOU'RE SAFE WITH PAYPAL: READ THIS! Guarantee = Worthless!

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