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"Treasury Department Claims Power to Seize Gold, Silver--and Everything Else, GATA says
clevegreg
Posts: 909 ✭
I think the coin forum is the correct place to post this message
MANCHESTER, Conn.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 22, 2005--The U.S. Government has the authority to prohibit the private possession of gold and silver coin and bullion by U.S. citizens during wartime, and, during wartime and declared emergencies, to freeze their ownership of shares of mining companies, the Treasury Department has told the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee.
But gold and silver owners aren't alone in such jeopardy. For the U.S. Government claims the authority in declared emergencies to seize or freeze just about everything else that might be considered a financial instrument.
The Treasury Department's assertions came in a letter to GATA dated August 12 and written by Sean M. Thornton, chief counsel for the department's Office of Foreign Assets Control, who replied to questions GATA posed to the department in January. It took GATA six months and some prodding to get answers from the Treasury, but the Treasury's reply, when it came, was remarkably comprehensive and candid.
The government's authority to interfere with the ownership of gold, silver, and mining shares arises, Thornton wrote, from the Trading With the Enemy Act, which became law in 1917 during World War I and applies during declared wars, and from 1977's International Emergency Economic Powers Act, which can be applied without declared wars.
While the Trading With the Enemy Act authorizes the government to interfere with the ownership of gold and silver particularly, it also applies to all forms of currency and all securities. So the Treasury official stressed in his letter to GATA that the act could be applied not just to shares of gold and silver mining companies but to the shares of all companies in which there is a foreign ownership interest.
Further, there is no requirement in the law that the targets of the government's interference must have some connection to the declared enemies of the United States, nor even some connection to foreign ownership. Anything that can be construed as a financial instrument, no matter how innocently it has been used, is subject to seizure under the Trading With the Enemy Act and the International Emergency Economic Powers Act.
Having just gone through a controversy about a Supreme Court decision about government's power of eminent domain, most Americans may be surprised to learn that the Trading With the Enemy Act and the International Emergency Economic Powers Act could expropriate them instantly and far more broadly without any of the due process extended to parties in eminent domain cases. All that is needed is a presidential proclamation of an emergency of some kind -- and of course Americans lately have been living in a state of perpetual emergency.
When the Trading With the Enemy Act was passed in 1917, gold and silver formed part of the official currency of the United States and were essential to ordinary commerce, so perhaps an argument could be made then against "hoarding," even if "hoarding" could not be well defined. That is no longer the case; the United States has officially disavowed gold and silver as money and they no longer have a meaningful role in commerce. (GATA is working on that.) So gold and silver investors may want to ask their members of Congress to seek repeal of the statutes that give the government the authority to interfere with the private ownership of gold and silver, emergencies or not.
And ordinary citizens with no particular interest in gold and silver may want to ask their members of Congress to reconsider these statutes simply for being wildly tyrannical.
GATA's correspondence with the Treasury Department is posted on the Internet here:
link to messages
MANCHESTER, Conn.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 22, 2005--The U.S. Government has the authority to prohibit the private possession of gold and silver coin and bullion by U.S. citizens during wartime, and, during wartime and declared emergencies, to freeze their ownership of shares of mining companies, the Treasury Department has told the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee.
But gold and silver owners aren't alone in such jeopardy. For the U.S. Government claims the authority in declared emergencies to seize or freeze just about everything else that might be considered a financial instrument.
The Treasury Department's assertions came in a letter to GATA dated August 12 and written by Sean M. Thornton, chief counsel for the department's Office of Foreign Assets Control, who replied to questions GATA posed to the department in January. It took GATA six months and some prodding to get answers from the Treasury, but the Treasury's reply, when it came, was remarkably comprehensive and candid.
The government's authority to interfere with the ownership of gold, silver, and mining shares arises, Thornton wrote, from the Trading With the Enemy Act, which became law in 1917 during World War I and applies during declared wars, and from 1977's International Emergency Economic Powers Act, which can be applied without declared wars.
While the Trading With the Enemy Act authorizes the government to interfere with the ownership of gold and silver particularly, it also applies to all forms of currency and all securities. So the Treasury official stressed in his letter to GATA that the act could be applied not just to shares of gold and silver mining companies but to the shares of all companies in which there is a foreign ownership interest.
Further, there is no requirement in the law that the targets of the government's interference must have some connection to the declared enemies of the United States, nor even some connection to foreign ownership. Anything that can be construed as a financial instrument, no matter how innocently it has been used, is subject to seizure under the Trading With the Enemy Act and the International Emergency Economic Powers Act.
Having just gone through a controversy about a Supreme Court decision about government's power of eminent domain, most Americans may be surprised to learn that the Trading With the Enemy Act and the International Emergency Economic Powers Act could expropriate them instantly and far more broadly without any of the due process extended to parties in eminent domain cases. All that is needed is a presidential proclamation of an emergency of some kind -- and of course Americans lately have been living in a state of perpetual emergency.
When the Trading With the Enemy Act was passed in 1917, gold and silver formed part of the official currency of the United States and were essential to ordinary commerce, so perhaps an argument could be made then against "hoarding," even if "hoarding" could not be well defined. That is no longer the case; the United States has officially disavowed gold and silver as money and they no longer have a meaningful role in commerce. (GATA is working on that.) So gold and silver investors may want to ask their members of Congress to seek repeal of the statutes that give the government the authority to interfere with the private ownership of gold and silver, emergencies or not.
And ordinary citizens with no particular interest in gold and silver may want to ask their members of Congress to reconsider these statutes simply for being wildly tyrannical.
GATA's correspondence with the Treasury Department is posted on the Internet here:
link to messages
0
Comments
When we approve of Supreme Court justices, there are questions that go beyond Roe v. Wade and molly coddling convicted felons. The issues go back to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which are concepts that some people don’t understand well enough to preserve them when they are threatened.
<< <i>That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. I would not want the government 'stealing' my gold or silver. I think the second to last sentence is spot on when it says that these statutes are wildly tyrannical. >>
One of the first acts that Franklin Roosevlt did after he took the Oath of Office was to confiscate the people's gold in 1933. If you don't think it can happen again - think again.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Can you say “UNCONSTITUTIONAL”. >>
Very, very, very, very unconstitutional.
Looking for alot of crap.
I'm sure the original intent..... was for severe emergencies, etc. I can understand that. Certainly, if the survival of the country is on the line... the government can... and probably should.... do what it takes to survive. I suspect in such times, the Constitution will be overlooked. As far as that goes.... if martial law is declared, isn't that more or less depriving a person of some rights??
In the 1930's, the survival of our democracy was in fact in question. I'm not surprised that gold was seized, banks closed for holidays, etc.
What IS troubling.... is what will our government consider to be an emergency? After the recent Supreme? Court ruling that allows any one to take anyone else's property, it is hard to believe our government will always do the right thing.
Hide those shiny bits o metal!!
The military will take your house if they need it to defend against an attack, thats not new.
The best defense you can have is not letting anyone know what you have. Otherwise, don't be surprised if there's a knock at your door.
I was living in Colorado in the early 1980's... when it was in vogue for some people to claim that 'income tax' was illegal and unconstitutional, and therefore they did not have to pay. There were a few people going around giving lectures and advice about how you did not have to pay your income tax; there was a sizable number of people who were buying in to it.
Well, the IRS started cracking down. And when they did..... they moved fast, and seized all bank accounts of the suspected violator, sealed off their homes (the owner could not even enter to get clothes, etc.), and there were instances that they even forced individuals to get out of their cars on the spot so they could take the vehicle. All of this could take place without a court order.... or proof that there was in fact a violation. The IRS would act first.... and you had to prove later that you were innocent. But that is kind of hard to do when you are homeless and cannot even access your bank accounts.
So yes.... I believe the government can do about anything they want to! Constitutional or not. One must remain vigilant about what our government is up to....
<< <i> seem to remember a phrase from my school days " Government of the people, for the people and by the people"... >>
That line was used again in a speech recently, it might have been spoken by Bush but I can't guarantee it, only this time it was "Government of the People and by the people." There was no mention of it being FOR the people.
That's why the Second Amendment is so important. The government may take my property without due process, but they won't do it without taking my life first. And I guarantee I'd take a few of them with me, too.
<< <i>Thanks to our first dictator, King Lincoln I (reigned 1861-1865), the president can declare habeus corpus to be suspended and have you arrested with or without reason, and held indefinitely without charges, without trial, without access to council, and incommunicado with the rest of the world. You can literally be "disappeared." Yes, thanks to Abraham Lincoln, that precedent now exists. That's what happens when you ignore the Constitution during an emergency--it becomes much easier for another tyrant to ignore later on.
That's why the Second Amendment is so important. The government may take my property without due process, but they won't do it without taking my life first. And I guarantee I'd take a few of them with me, too. >>
Right on brother man. I support you 100%. The single most important item of the constitution, the 2nd Ammendment, secures every other guarantee within it. If y'all come for my gold it's lock and load!
Looking for alot of crap.
BTW check them out they have tons of rumors both true and false. It's rare to find one they don't have but they didn't have any info on this I could tell.
Snopes-rumors
One possible way around gold seizure and still participate in the gold coin market is to stay within the realm of collectible gold coins....and not pure bullion. Each has its own risks & rewards.
roadrunner
Do you really feel they'd give notice if they thought it's a slam dunk and their in the right?
<< <i>Actually I think the Lincoln habeus decision was overruled >>
Yes, Ex Parte Merryman held that the president does not have the Constitutional right to suspend habeus corpus--only Congress can. The ruling was issued in 1861 and Lincoln ignored the decision, continuing to hold Merryman without trial.
In Ex Parte Milligan, the Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional to try a civilian in a military court as long as civilian courts were still operating. The ruling was issued in 1866, unfortunately too late for Mr. Milligan.
Unfortunately, when a military dictator is in office, the rulings of civilian courts often go unheeded and unenforced. Lincoln argued: "Are all the laws, but one, to go unexecuted, and the government itself go to pieces, lest that one be violated?" My contention is yes: it's better for the nation to fall apart than it is for its people to lose their liberty. Once violated, it's all to easy to violate the Constitution again, and again, and again.
Very good point!!
wait and let me go to the safety deposit box.. it'll be like 20 minutes. I have the reciepts, too.
And I'm not just whistling Dixie either, Brother.
They're welcome to all my lead but not my gold or silver.
<< <i>
<< <i> seem to remember a phrase from my school days " Government of the people, for the people and by the people"... >>
That line was used again in a speech recently, it might have been spoken by Bush but I can't guarantee it, only this time it was "Government of the People and by the people." There was no mention of it being FOR the people. >>
"Live long and prosper"
My "How I Started" columns
How will Big Brother know where to look?
<< <i>Are we really free? I suppose freedom has a price.
That would certainly depend on your definition of freedom now wouldn't it?
Once upon a time when there was a Constitution , it was a lot more free than now. The overall direction is bleak.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>The Treasury official was merely explaining an antiquated law, passed in 1917 during WW1. It must have made sense then, but is not likely to happen now. I think ttown may be right, in that this GATA wrote this to induce interest in its activities, maybe for fund raising. They seem to have worked backwords from a predetermined position, and how else is the Treasury official going to respond except to truthfully explain what it means. It's not what they are going to do, which is what GATA wants you to think. >>
Oh I think with an 8 trillion dollar debt which is rising I think this government is looking at LOTS of creative ways in which to steal more, so as to spend more, then steal more to spend more.
Further, I think with the majority of right AND left wing socialists who control the government, the spending shows no sign of slowing down and certainly not reversing. Anyone see something I don't?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
NoEbayAuctionsForNow
You are being taught how it was started and the good intentions and good ideals that the founding fathers had. But it has been over 200 years since then. Things get changed and altered. Not all at once, just a little bit at a time. "This change is minor and won't inconvience you.",and each time they are right and you agree, but eventually after many minor changes you look back to how it was originally and discover that compared to then you are MAJORLY inconvienced. "This change is only temporary for the duration of the emergency", but who decides when the emergency is over? Thay do. "This tax will be cancelled once the project is completed", well it can almost be stated as an absolute that any tax, once imposed, is never recended.
The Constitution spelled out specificly what powers and rsponsibilities the Federal Government had, and all others not specificly mentioned were reserved to the state governments. But through all those "minor" changes over the years, the Feeral government has upsurpted most of the powers given to the states an today rules through what I call "Government by Extorsionl". Anytime they want the states to change their laws, to allow the Feds to oversee something, to impliment a new Federal Government program they tell them "Do this or we will cut off your highway funding" or the funds they provide for some other purpose. Well state budgets now depend for a major portion of their income from this "fedral money" and so they have to give in to this financial blackmail. And then the Feds use the same threat to make the states do something else.
Why did this happen? Well as the saying goes Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even the founding fathes wre not immune to this fact. When Washington was commanding general of the Continential Army he took the position at no pay, but with the agreement that the Congress just pay his personal expenses. His "personal expenses" over the next few year amounted to over a quarter of a million dollars! At Valley Forge, while his ill-clad men were freezing, Washington was staying a few miles away in a well heated manor house having dinners and balls with the local aristocracy. What was spent on these galas would probably have shod his army. When they wanted to make Washington President he once again offered to serve without pay just expenses. This time though they turned him down and made him take a salary. It was much cheaper that way.
And I believe it was John Adams, who after publicly criticized in the press got the Sedition Act passed which made it a crime to criticize the President. (That got quickly overturned.)
It still happns today. Most of the Republican Senators and Congress men who got elected in the "Republican revilution" of 1994 did so with the promise of term restrictions and that they would serve no more that two terms themselves. Well it's almost twelve years later, we don't have term restrictions, and most of those Republican Senators will shotly be running for their third terms and the Congressmen their sixth. Power seduces, both men and governments. They always want just a little more
Ben
166 BHDs & 154 Die Varieties & Die States...
Bust Half Nut Club #180
Festivus Yes! Bagels No!
Ben >>
Nah, won't be necessary but if in the rare cases it becomes necessary, they will. And all the talk will suddenly turn to "I'm sorry Sir, I didn't know" or something along those lines.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>Further, I think with the majority of right AND left wing socialists who control the government, the spending shows no sign of slowing down and certainly not reversing. Anyone see something I don't? >>
It's not the spending that bothers me, it's the waste.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>
<< <i>Further, I think with the majority of right AND left wing socialists who control the government, the spending shows no sign of slowing down and certainly not reversing. Anyone see something I don't? >>
It's not the spending that bothers me, it's the waste. >>
It's not the spending? Well that's one reason we are where we are and headed where we're headed
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>It's not the spending that bothers me, it's the waste. >>
Too True!
166 BHDs & 154 Die Varieties & Die States...
Bust Half Nut Club #180
Festivus Yes! Bagels No!
<< <i>It's not the spending that bothers me, it's the waste. >>
Its not the waste that bothers me, its the hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy, I had to look up the spelling (guess I'm getting old) anyway the definition since I looked it up anyway: "The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness."
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