Please urge David Hall to edit the "PCGS Price Guide" verbiage to make it harder for lowli

coinguy1 · August 19, 2005 3:13AM

This topic has been discussed here and elsewhere, many times before. In fact, several months ago, after speaking to a representative of PCGS, I even forwarded some suggestions/possible changes, in order to help them to edit the "PCGS Price Guide" language. As best I can tell, no changes were made.

Below, are but two paragraphs of current PCGS Price Guide text which could easily be changed, in order to warn the unsuspecting. For example, something to the effect of the following could be added and highlighted:"These prices are for PCGS coins only - coins certified by other grading companies can and often do bring considerably less".

As it stands now, the PCGS Price Guide prices are quoted by sellers everywhere, including on Ebay, to try to take advantage of the numerous novices/unsuspecting buyers who don't know better. Many of us are all-to-familiar with the widespread offerings of coins in off-brand holders, and the PCGS Price Guide prices being quoted for coins which are worth small fractions of those prices/values.

I realize it's impossible for PCGS to prevent the PCGS Price Guide prices from being quoted by unscrupulous sellers. However, I also believe that PCGS has a duty to the hobby, to at least make it more difficult for such sellers to take advantage of the unknowledgeable buyers. It should/would take very little time and effort to make such changes/improvements.

Ok, I will now step down from my soapbox.

<< The PCGS Price Guide is a guide to assist the coin buying public in determining values for all significant United States rare coins. Before you use the PCGS Price Guide, you should read the following information very carefully. >>

<< WHAT DO PCGS PRICES MEAN?

The prices listed in the PCGS Price Guide are the average dealer asking prices for properly graded United States coins. The prices are compiled from various sources including dealer ads in trade papers, dealer fixed price lists, significant auctions, and activity at major coin shows. Prices for the most actively traded coins are updated daily. Other issues are updated as needed. All prices are reviewed at least once a month. >>

Russ · August 19, 2005 3:16AM

I concur.

Russ, NCNE

TUMUSS · August 19, 2005 3:19AM

OR....make the prices accurate

nwcs · August 19, 2005 3:34AM

David Hall said he'd do it a couple years ago.

Goldude · August 19, 2005 3:34AM

Make the prices accurate? lol how are you going to do that?? every company sells coins for different prices, what is PCGS suppose to do put wholesale prices in their site?? i think the site is a good tool for dealers, if the public wants to buy coins they can't all buy at wholesale, from what i see on the price list, the coins are "average" going prices for coins, dealers sell coins for a profit, not to give away to the public, if the public wants to see the wholesale dealer to dealer sight unseen bids tellem to go subscribe to the greysheet.

777 · August 19, 2005 3:35AM

Ive had many collectors bring in the other grading services coins in their holder thinking their worth the same as a pcgs/ngc coin; when they find out they are done.. when your new to collecting and buy coins on ebay or elswhere; always remember just because its graded and encapsulated does not mean it grades what it says on the holder; Ive seen many individuals lose thousands from so called sellers preying on the NEW to the market collectors on the internet.. [ Knowledge means everything]

Steve27 · August 19, 2005 3:38AM

I agree that something needs to be done, but if a statement such as this is made "These prices are for PCGS coins only ...," does that imply that PCGS is guaranteeing those prices? I think that is the real issue. If they just say it's a "guide" for "properly graded coins" then there's no implied liability if the coins sell for less.

mgoodm3 · August 19, 2005 3:41AM

Nice thought, but the problem you have is that nobody reads that stuff.

JSsson · August 19, 2005 3:43AM

I agree with coinguy1.

Russ · August 19, 2005 3:58AM

<< OR....make the prices accurate >>

Even that wouldn't work. An accurate price for a properly graded PCGS or NGC coin is not the same as an accurate price for a PCI or NTC dog turd.

Russ, NCNE

coinguy1 · August 19, 2005 4:06AM

Whoops - edited

RYK · August 19, 2005 4:14AM

I think that if you are going to offer a price guide, it should be realistic and based on recent data. The prices (at least in my area) are absurd. I will buy all of the PCGS XF-45 1844-D $5's for the $1000 retail price listed. It has been several years since a PCGS XF-45 Dahlonega $5 has sold for $1000, and that coin was probably an overgraded dog. (Same for the other similar dates.)

I have said before that PCGS should give up on the price guide. It is not a revenue generator and is a source for confusion and abuse. For serious collectors, it is not a valuable resource.

ccrdragon · August 19, 2005 4:15AM

<< not the same as an accurate price for a PCI or NTC dog turd >>

you have such a way with words, Russ!

291fifth · August 19, 2005 4:20AM

The scammers aren't nice folks. They will scam any way they can. They won't be concerned about word changes.

DMWJR · August 19, 2005 4:23AM

You've got my vote.

AC7DX · August 19, 2005 4:25AM

<< David Hall said he'd do it a couple years ago. >>

They are too busy with the "speared Bison"

and the prices are screwed up anyway.

Bubblehead · August 19, 2005 4:44AM

I am in complete agreement with Mark.

I deleted a long, rambling, tome about sellers who know better, and continue to reference the guide.

No amount of verbiage is gonna put a halt to this practice, tho..

As Russ says about "greed"....

edited for spelling..

Elcontador · August 19, 2005 5:25AM

Mark, I think your intentions are honorable. But PCGS is not obligated to do this. As there is virtually no regulation that I know of specific to the numismatics business - other than issues of fraud which are difficult and expensive to prove - coupled with the fact that I don't see their bottom line improving if they do this, I don't think they have any incentive to do so.

In the world in which we live, I think people should educate themselves before making any sort of major purchase. Caveat emptor is the order of the day.

airplanenut · August 19, 2005 5:27AM

How about a clause that the prices are only to be used for PCGS coins and other use is strictly forbidden. While that sounds worthless, I believe PCGS is a company with the power to end auctions on eBay that infringe on their copyright (ex: someone uses a CoinWorld holder and calls it a PCGS slab)... perhaps they could take reports and end auctions in violation of this policy...

mozin · August 19, 2005 6:53AM

"These prices are for PCGS coins only - coins certified by other grading companies can and often do bring considerably less".

There also needs to be some changes made to the pricing of coins that simply do not trade often enough to offer any current prices.

To me the current PCGS price sheets are only good for looking at relative pricing between grades and relative pricing amongst PDS coins. The PCGS prices appear to be taken only from the "big boys" asking prices and they do not appear to be true for the masses of dealers.

coinguy1 · August 19, 2005 9:49AM

I understand that changes in the verbiage wouldn't rid the numismatic world of everyone who uses the published pop figures to take advantage of others. However, anything that makes it more difficult for unscrupulous sellers to rip off novices should be encouraged - I am confident that some buyers would benefit. Additionally, we're not talking about a particularly difficult or expensive process here.

I like Jeremy's idea:

<< How about a clause that the prices are only to be used for PCGS coins and other use is strictly forbidden. While that sounds worthless, I believe PCGS is a company with the power to end auctions on eBay that infringe on their copyright (ex: someone uses a CoinWorld holder and calls it a PCGS slab)... perhaps they could take reports and end auctions in violation of this policy... >>

Mr. Hall, I invite you to step up to the plate and remind everyone why you once were (or still are) called "homerunhall".

relayer · August 19, 2005 9:55AM

If it acurately reflected prices, the scammers probably wouldn't use it so much

coinguy1 · August 19, 2005 10:01AM

<< If it acurately reflected prices, the scammers probably wouldn't use it so much >>

It would be much easier and faster to edit the language to make it applicable for PCGS coins only, than it would be to change (and keep udating) the prices. Even if prices were updated, that wouldn't solve the problem of sellers using them for non-PCGS coins.

wayneherndon · August 19, 2005 10:05AM

Great point. I agree entirely. I sent a link to this thread to the person that runs the price guide. Maybe he can give us a little feedback on the idea.

WH

airplanenut · August 19, 2005 10:13AM

<< If it acurately reflected prices, the scammers probably wouldn't use it so much >>

Suppose the prices were accurate... a third-tier company might holder a coin as MS67, when it is in fact an MS63 or MS64. Even if the prices for all grades were right, that could be an enormous swing. The problem isn't only the prices, but the relative grades.

Jeremy

PhillyJoe · August 19, 2005 10:22AM

Great idea Mark.

How 'bout:

"The PCGS prices should not be relied on for coins in non-PCGS holders as their grading standards my differ from those at PCGS."

Joe

earlygoldnut · August 19, 2005 11:11AM

It seems that coins that trade frequently are far more than full retail in many cases while many of the scarcer coins ( those with a price history available) are in many cases too low and are below.

arlea1957 · August 19, 2005 11:16AM

I often us the pcgs price guide as a guide line and don't think I have ever over spent on a coin... (well maybe once or thrice...lol) but as so many here have said but the coin not the holder.....

librtyhead · August 19, 2005 11:24AM

librtyhead · August 19, 2005 11:34AM

wow that was strange! anyways I agree for a person to say pcgs prices reflect this certain amount and then show a coin from another grading service is bogus.Its either pcgs or its not!!!!!

BAJJERFAN · August 19, 2005 11:47AM

<< I have said before that PCGS should give up on the price guide. It is not a revenue generator and is a source for confusion and abuse. For serious collectors, it is not a valuable resource. >>

AGREED!! Just get rid of it; its inaccurate, out of date, poorly or never maintained and I see no reason why PCGS should expend manpower or funds going after those who misuse/abuse it on eBay and elsewhere.

Trime · August 19, 2005 3:02PM

Mark,
You remain my hero. There are too few Don Quixotes and too many windmills.
HRH,
Sounds like a marketing opportunity to me.
Other dealers, E-Bayers, and "wanabes" (that disagree),
I know it is nice to have bars to sell over but this has been a good run for you.

michael · August 19, 2005 3:08PM

<< The PCGS Price Guide is a guide to assist the coin buying public in determining values for all significant United States rare coins. Before you use the PCGS Price Guide, you should read the following information very carefully. >>

<< WHAT DO PCGS PRICES MEAN?

The prices listed in the PCGS Price Guide are the average dealer asking prices for properly graded United States coins. The prices are compiled from various sources including dealer ads in trade papers, dealer fixed price lists, significant auctions, and activity at major coin shows. Prices for the most actively traded coins are updated daily. Other issues are updated as needed. All prices are reviewed at least once a month. >>

simple straight forward and to the point perfect pcgs please use the above exactly as it is written....................let it be written let it be DONE

jmcu12 · August 19, 2005 3:13PM

Why is PCGS applying values at all? They should be getting their values from the sheets!

oreville · August 19, 2005 3:34PM

coinguy:

Thanks for this thread.

TahoeDale · August 19, 2005 3:50PM

Mark,

How many price guides are there? Blue sheet, Grey sheet, Quarterly, Monthly--all from CDN.

Then, Trends, Numismedia, and more

Then, asking prices from Dealer web sites

Then, prices realized from auctions, mail bid sales(occurring in many different years and market conditions)

And each coin is low end to high end for grade.

And it can be white, off-white, slate grey, lusterous, mottled, full strike, weak stars, soft corn ear, and a large gouge in the left field at 3 o'clock.

So, for even the PCGS coin, and it's pricing in the "Guide", the variance within the same grade is a mutiple of adjectives .

The last 2 lib nickels in 66 for the 1896 date brought 10,000 and 19,000. The "Guide" says 9000. Maybe okay.

But the prices quoted for the 1886 in 66 (17,500) and the 1885 in 67 (37,500) are just a guess, as neither coin has sold by private treaty or in auction for years. The same will be true for many 66's and 67's.

I would rather see a * or __ for coins that have not traded or been in auction except sporadically.

The change in language, limiting the guides to PCGS only doesn't solve anything for the unwary consumer. He/she is in big trouble relying only on the eBay seller.

merz2 · August 19, 2005 10:47PM

Mark
You and I have agreed and disagreed many times on different subjects.I agree this time.The problem is,as many have said David can't just add paragraphs to it.It is far more complicated than that.I do believe it could be made more accurate/up-to-date.That in itself would help.

BAJJERFAN · August 19, 2005 10:59PM

To me its about as useless as buying coins based on Redbook prices. Its good for showing relative values [like a 93-s in fine is worth a fair amount more than a 85-o in the same grade]. when smoething starts to become more hassle than it is worth, get RID of it.

Mesquite · August 20, 2005 12:05AM

Another view – I think there is some serious hair-splitting going on here. A coin is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. The coin guide is just what it says it is, a guide. Now, if someone does not know that PCGS and NGC are the standard-bearers for accurate coin grading – with all of the information out there - then that is too bad. They obviously did not read Travers or Bowers, nor did they “buy the book” before they bought the coin. While I agree with Mark that there are injustices out there that might be addressed, I think they are best addressed by individual dealers. Does anyone post a disclaimer in big bold letters in their shop explaining TPG and its ramifications to open up this conversation face to face– does this really need to be addressed by DH or PCGS? Late night TV coin pricing is, in my opinion, a more serious issue here. The uninitiated who watch late night television are much more likely to be “fooled” into thinking that those are fair market prices for coins. I’m afraid that I see no difference in the pitfalls present in numismatics and those that exist in the life insurance industry. You buy PCGS/NGC or another TPG and reap the rewards of your learned decision; you buy level-term and start your own investment program or you buy whole life/universal life and reap the rewards of your learned decision. The fact is that no matter what DH does, he can not make the population as a whole put forth the effort to become learned. It is the buyer's responsibility to know what they're doing when they make a purchase regardless if it's coins, cars, investments, whatever. By the way, I’m glad to see the collective conscience of this group.

Goldude · August 20, 2005 1:13AM

Leave the PCGS price guide alone, and quit whining, coins are worth what people are will to pay for them, you think the greysheet is better?? try buying coins at greysheet prices, in most cases you can't, the bluesheet is even a bigger joke, if this was my site, this thread and the one who started it would have been vaporized the day it started it.

P.S. sorry coinguy nuttin personal but cmon lol

lloydmincy · August 20, 2005 1:25AM

I like that Mesquite...

No matter what David Hall and PCGS does to try to change things for the better, the scammers will still have a home as long as the suckers are still out there.

I am still at a quandry accepting the fact that there IS A MONOPOLY out there if PCGS coins are considered more valuable just because they are in a PCGS holder. Well, that's not neccessarily true either. PCGS's price guide says a 1794 dollar MS62 (IN THEIR HOLDER I ASSUME) is worth $425,000. Does that mean a coin is worth WWAAAYYY more in an NGC holder, because an NGC MS61 sold recently for $747,000???

So there are those "suckers" that will pay more for a PCGS holdered coin??? I wish them luck in the end.

Buy the coin, not the holder - boy - saying that gets old.

THe MARKET helps to get a more accurate price of a particular coin - not some price guide. There will never be an accurate guide - it changes DAILY, whether the coin was sold or not.

Do your homework, look at past prices realized, but more importantly, be cautious about the grades - especially all the upgrades on coins that shouldn't be IMPROVING with age like wine.

dizzyfoxx · August 20, 2005 1:34AM

Very, very good thread, worthy of strict attention.

I feel that the prices quoted based on the PCGS price guide are compatible for PCGS and NGC graded coins ONLY!!! Even though NGC coins sell for slightly less at times
(but sometimes more), I feel they are just as reputable and trusted by the collecting community, and therefore, are equal in status. To use the PCGS price guide for any other grading company is just plain incorrect in my opinion and yes, some sort of verbiage should be inserted to prevent the un-informed from making costly mistakes. JMHO

coinguy1 · August 20, 2005 1:46AM

Dale, Lloyd, Mesquite and others,

I'm not speaking to the unavoidable, obvious and widespread inaccuracies of the PCGS Price Guide or any other guide. That is nearly impossible to correct on anything other than on an intermittent and/or short term basis.

However, that doesn't mean that some (easy-to-accomplish) changes in the verbiage shouldn't be made, when it is well known that the current information is being widely abused. Some improvement is better than none.

Think about situations such as the Coin world do-it-yourself holders where sellers can "slab" their own coins, put whatever grade they choose on the grading label and then quote PCGS Price Guide prices in their listings. Then there are sellers of coins/slabs of grading companies that grade to a standard that is 2 or more points looser than PCGS and list completely irrelevant (absurdly high) prices from the PCGS Price Guide.

For the most part, people who frequent this forum are far more knowledgeable and sophisticated than the type of collector/buyer I am concerned about - I think it is good for the hobby if we and PCGS consider their plight and not merely say "too bad for them if they don't do their homework". That type of attitude can end up hurting the hobby and many of us in the long run.

RegistryCoin · August 20, 2005 1:50AM

Perhaps, if PCGS offered internet links within their guide to actual auction sales, this would provide the information that is perceived to be lacking.

RGL · August 20, 2005 2:00AM

Here is my end of some PMs I sent to David in February 2004:

David:

It would be an easy fix to rename it the PCGS Price Guide (which everyone practically calls it, anyway) and to prominently post on each page/series that the prices are for PCGS coins only ... I just hate, as I am sure you do, to see the bottom sellers profiting by selling crap in junk plastic to the uneducated and then propping it up with your good name...

Randy

Thanks, David ... A further thought, and your lawyers would want to review the language, of course, but you also could include a disclaimer: "Coins in other services' slabs at the same grade as PCGS coins often command lower prices in the marketplace." The statement is certainly true and accurate ...

Regards,

Randy

TahoeDale · August 20, 2005 2:40AM

Mark,

We all really appreciate the experienced dealer helping the coin community (new and old) understand the myriad of problems and differences in grading coins, and pricing them accordingly.

I have been trying to improve my skills for 13 years, and am 1/10 of the way there. To be in the place where true experts can look at a coin, grade it accurately, and then have the resources to place a fair value on it, in the hope that someone will want it, and/or hold it for possible profit.

A first solution is for the newcomer to rely on a seasoned dealer/collector. He/she will then learn the basics, read, and view, and after a short time, will be more comfortable in purchasing on their own.

Those that just jump into the fray, without the easy to find basic info. are somewhat foolish.

Fools and their money shall soon part. We do not have the tools available in any industry to educate the fools.

I just do not like spending time(mine or yours) on less than fruitful projects.

Coinhusker1 · August 20, 2005 4:26AM

Mark, I support your proposal, and hope that HRH or PCGS responds to this thread.

However, if there is no PCGS response to this thread directly, perhaps you can post your suggestion in the Q&A.

joefro · August 20, 2005 4:56AM

I'm definitely sick of seeing raw overgraded coins on Ebay with price quotes that are more than 10 times the value of the coin.

fc · August 20, 2005 5:57AM

when i started collecting half eagles, i found the price guide to be very accurate
for the more common purchases I was making.

As my tastes grew more refined, I tend to agree with RYK. The more desirable half eagles
are way off price wise in the guide.

Fatguy basically pointed me to Heritage for a better look at current prices.

All the same, I find myself using the guide whenever I am buying PCGS graded coins.

Good thread!

(fatman i meant)

arlea1957 · August 20, 2005 6:01AM

<< I concur. >>

segoja · August 20, 2005 6:52AM

The PCGS price guide is a useful tool....IF the prices are accurate.

PCGS has some new folks on board and ARE in the process of updating the price guide. They are contacting folks that know each of the series. The tough part of the price guide is how to price coins that have no real price lists (many moderns, cameo's etc). There is a real market, and the folks that buy/sell in the market know it.

As they get through the series, it will be more useful.

The series I was contacted on is (in my opinion) very close to the true market. Yes the prices are a touch on the high side of retail, but for nice coins, they are accurate.

There will always be scam artists out there. Nothing PCGS can do about that. With all the price guides out there, one can always find a price 2-3x the coins true value and quote it. For those that buy without research, it's their own fault. Live and learn.

Bottom line is you have to know the market and how nice a coin is for the grade in order to determine the right price you'd be willing to pay.

Please urge David Hall to edit the "PCGS Price Guide" verbiage to make it harder for lowli

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Please urge David Hall to edit the &quot;PCGS Price Guide&quot; verbiage to make it harder for lowli

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Please urge David Hall to edit the "PCGS Price Guide" verbiage to make it harder for lowli