How big of a gambler are you? How much faith do you have in your fellow forum member? What $ amount

coinguy1 · August 15, 2005 3:45AM

Let's say that you have corresponded sporadically and briefly with a fellow forum member over the past year or so.....

You have seen him post and interact on the forum and he appears to be a good guy.......

You are a dealer (or, if you prefer, a collector) and have a coin for sale that he would like to view on approval basis...

You don't want to show a lack of trust and ask him for references....

You sense he is a trustworthy person.....

Based upon the above, and the above only, what is the highest dollar amount figure you would ship on open account/approval basis?

dorkkarl · August 15, 2005 3:46AM

to coinguy1, i'd ship anything under a $1. anyone else can bite me!

K S

RYK · August 15, 2005 3:50AM

I would treat him like any other first time buyer. I learned in another thread from Goldude that 80% of what is said here is BS, so that's 4:1 odds against any one of us being legit.

If you explain to him that it is your policy not to send approval coins on the first "X' number of transactions with a new customer AND assure him that the coin will be sent to him on a SIGHT-SEEN basis with full return privilige, if he is a decent chap, he will understand.

coinguy1 · August 15, 2005 3:52AM

Karl, I am truly flattered!

RYK, does that mean your answer to my given scenario is zero $ worth? If so, just say it and stop with the polite bologna/stuff.

longtimecollector · August 15, 2005 3:53AM

What I have done for fellow forum members in the past is.............. If I have a coin they want/need, I ask them to send me a personal check for the total amount with the understanding that I will NOT process the check until I get a positive response from them........ If they decide to return the coin, I either destroy the check or return it (their choice), once I have the coin back in hand......... Works for everyone involved so far !!!

Fairlaneman · August 15, 2005 3:53AM

Just because a member posts constantly on these forums it does not mean the poster has any moral values. This was brought to light a week or so ago. I would think very hard about sending anything without having the money in hand.

A few exception would be made for people that I know are good for their word.

Ken

mgoodm3 · August 15, 2005 3:55AM

For a first time customer, I wouldn't send any more than you can afford to lose. After you have some confidence in the customer then you can relax. No harm in asking for references as far as I am concerned.

RedneckHB · August 15, 2005 3:55AM

Highest dollar value I ever sent to a fellow board member for approval was $1000.

Baley · August 15, 2005 3:57AM

He can pay for the coin, and then I'll ship it. If he doesn't like it, he can send it back and I'll send the money back.

Why does he need to see it "on approval"? for our first transaction?

After I've established a business relationship with someone, I'd send the coin first, up to a couple hundred bucks, probably.

I still wonder why he needs to see it "on approval"? can I send him some more coins "on approval" and just bill his credit card?

Fairlaneman · August 15, 2005 3:57AM

<< For a first time customer, I wouldn't send any more than you can afford to lose. After you have some confidence in the customer then you can relax. No harm in asking for references as far as I am concerned. >>

Hmmm.... Are you sure? The person that was outed here had multiple transactions with yours truly before he went gunny bag.

Ken

UncleJoe · August 15, 2005 3:59AM

No references: $100.

Joe.

dthigpen · August 15, 2005 4:01AM

I would never expect a dealer whom I have no background with to send me a coin on approval. For me, as long as he's a reputable dealer with a valid return policy, it wouldn't matter anyways.

PhillyJoe · August 15, 2005 4:03AM

This is primarily a social venue. Your business is another thing. I would use your normal business practices regarding coins on approval.

BTW, the most I have ever sent to Russ on approval was $.50.

I buy from forum members all the time. I send the money, then they send the coin(s). We stay friends that way.

Joe

19Lyds · August 15, 2005 4:04AM

0 dollars. Full return privilege should be good enough.........if thats not ok, too bad.

RYK · August 15, 2005 4:09AM

I would never expect a dealer whom I have no background with to send me a coin on approval. For me, as long as he's a reputable dealer with a valid return policy, it wouldn't matter anyways.

I agree.

Yes, Mark, put me down for zero (plus a lot of vegetarian bologna

).

Perhaps the buyer will read this thread and understand where you are coming from when you lower the hammer.

Edit: That said, numerous fellow forum members have shipped me coins before having received payment and vice versa.

Russ · August 15, 2005 4:11AM

<< BTW, the most I have ever sent to Russ on approval was $.50. >>

It was a nice 50¢, though.

Russ, NCNE

DJC · August 15, 2005 4:17AM

I've got a real world answer for you on this one (how 'bout that, real input from me!!)

I recently shipped around $3K in coins to Russ to sell for me. I've only been around here (counting lurk time) maybe a year, and realistically, don't really 'know' Russ from Adam. However, he's a well known long-timer around here, with plenty of extremely positive references. He (or any other good sized seller here) would have far more to lose (long term business-wise) in a dishonest transaction than could possibly be gained from one quick little rip.

Catch22 · August 15, 2005 4:17AM

There are a few here that I would send on an approval basis. However, nobody has a guaranty on life and I wouldn't do it for anybody in any significant amount. Ballpark...300 bucks.

TONEDDOLLARS · August 15, 2005 4:18AM

Quite a few years ago, Iasked GSAGUY if he had any CC dollars for sale. This was before I had ever met him and only knew him from these boards. He PM'd me back and said he might have a few. I asked if he would send me a couple and how did he want to handle it. Bryan told me not t5o worry, he would just send a few and if I liked any I could send the rest back with a check. I did not know him from Adam, but none the less he mailed me eight toned GSA dollars. That to me was a great show of faith. I asked him, when I met him at a ANA show, our first meeting, how he could send that much in the mail to someone he did not know. He just smiled and said "it worked out ok"

tjkillian · August 15, 2005 4:34AM

I have had several from this board send me coins worth over $500 each to me on approval with no problems. Just this past week I sent a package of coins to another board member, whom I have actually met and is a great guy, a package over $600 on approval. I have had not a single problem of any kind with anyone on these boards, buying or selling.

Tom

291fifth · August 15, 2005 4:34AM

Approvals are dangerous. You should have a policy against them for all but insignificant amounts...or coins you really want to get rid of. Even that can be dangerous. Back in 1974 I was selling foreign coins by mail order. Business wasn't good. One day I received a request for approvals on $600 worth of coins from a man in Spokane, WA. I had just completed a successful approval deal with a collector in South Africa so I decided to take a chance. Bad move!
The man from Spokane was a major league scam artist. He eventually ended up in federal prison (but not as a result of my transaction with him). I never saw a dime of the money owed me nor were the coins returned.

relayer · August 15, 2005 4:35AM

I was smart enough not to send any coins on approval to wingedliberty so I would keep that policy.

My approval service is a 5-day no questions refund.

So once the payment clears, I'll send coins to anybody

mirabela · August 15, 2005 4:40AM

With the circumstances you've specified -- $0!

CarlWohlforth · August 15, 2005 4:49AM

I had a situation like that. I hadn't and many interactions with the guy but it seemed he had many transactions with other CU forum members and I felt confident with him. So I sent a pretty expensive one, I can't remember exactly but somewhat less than a grand.

I have been ripped off lately so am gun shy. Now, depending on my gut feel, between $0 and $200.

tmot99 · August 15, 2005 4:54AM

Depends on who it is asking for it. There are some I wouldn't have any problems with and others where I want payment in full. It also depends on the coin and if that person is a specialist in that series.

Answer to your question: ranges from $0 to $500

streeter · August 15, 2005 5:02AM

Mark-
Hypothetically.....

If I were to send coins to you and if you stiffed me ---your reputation would suffer...AGREED?
But if it was the other way around.....and you sent coins to me and I disappeared.....how would I suffer? Answer -none.

IN GOD WE TRUST--all others send cash.

Dealer to dealer is a whole different story.

Why would ANYONE ask a dealer to front them coins with out the proper bonifides? Now if you're tradedollarnut---it's a diff. story

topstuf · August 15, 2005 5:02AM

No one should even EXPECT approvals without providing some references.

Numismatic if possible and ebay at the very least.

An ANA number is good also, but shouldn't replace the references.

Who would be offended by a request for references?

Wisconsin · August 15, 2005 5:27AM

I know I was very surprised when a few years back I got into coins and I actually had a dealer trust me enough to send me a $2400 Bust Dollar.

This was just after a few brief emails etc. Now it all seems quite normal, but I have to say there are a lot of trusting dealers out there.

stman · August 15, 2005 5:49AM

<< Based upon the above, and the above only, what is the highest dollar amount figure you would ship on open account/approval basis? >>

Since you set the rules.....based on your rules

As a collector (me) I would not ship them squat on "approval."
If you decide to bend your rules and would like to hear more just say so.

coinguy1 · August 15, 2005 5:55AM

<< If you decide to bend your rules and would like to hear more just say so. >>

Stman, the suspense is killing me - consider the rules bent, but just for your reply.

wam98 · August 15, 2005 6:09AM

I really don't see the need to send a coin on approval if a return policy is offered.

stman · August 15, 2005 6:11AM

<< Stman, the suspense is killing me - consider the rules bent, but just for your reply. >>

Ha, my pleasure.... I seldom sell to folks on here and it's really a case by case basis. I'm a collector and a collector only.
I know it's hard to imagine that a fellow board member might have me ship on approval only looking for a quick flip/upgrade.
But I have indeed had this happen, from dealers too. It's really not a trust issue as more of a pain.

Some folks don't mind going to the PO to mail a coin back they were just "curious" about and want to see it.
If I sell, I want a quick easy deal. Also, some folks don't like to tell you they received a coin. Which BTW is VERY
inconsiderate IMO. They can be playing on the forum but yet can't give a quick PM saying.... "coin received."

OK sorry for the rant. Bottom line I want more of a commitment then just to send it on approval. When they don't want to do that...
I keep the coin. BTW, I just sent a coin just under a Thousand dollars today without receiving payment. He told me last night payment
will go out today. I believed him and sent coin today. I don't feel uncomfortable at all. I won't even be upset if I get burned and don't receive payment.
I'll simply find him, cut off his head, and (you know what goes here.) It's really very simple.

I've also had a few dealers have me ship a coin to them, they can't let me know they received. Yet, have already sent it out for sale.
That's why sometimes you might see a BST of me saying.... "NO Dealers Please." Although most coins I sell end up going back
to the dealer I bought it from. I know.... more than ya wanted to hear. But you asked!!!!

coinguy1 · August 15, 2005 6:28AM

<< I really don't see the need to send a coin on approval if a return policy is offered. >>

Granted, there might not be an actual "need" for approval service.

However, shipping on approval means, among other things, that:

1) A client need not make a payment (which might have to be refunded anyway) in advance;

2) The check need not be sent, deposited and clear before the coin is shipped - much faster service;

3) The owner of the coin knows much sooner whether it is in fact sold or not.

4) The client is aware that the dealer/seller has trust in him and cares about the convenience to him.

Approval service is clearly quicker and makes for a much more efficient transaction. That upside must be weighed against the downside/risk, though.

JrGMan2004 · August 15, 2005 6:37AM

$0... there are some people that would be first time buyers from me that I wouldn't hesitate to ship stuff too... but they are well-established members, and usually would be known by a number of dealers...

Incidentally, the same goes for accepting personal checks... if I don't know the person, I won't accept personal checks...

TahoeDale · August 15, 2005 6:42AM

Mark,

If there is no other information that is available(like he already has a registry set working) and I have no other references for him, I would not send the coin on approval.

But I have sent coins for sale and/or viewing to fellow Barber collectors without ever meeting them in person, or getting credit reports/info. Max was $7500. I knew they bought or sold coins thru dealers I knew, and a check on their integrity was simple.

With as little data as you indicated in the hypo, you are taking a big risk. Up to the total value of the coin(s) sent.

Julian · August 15, 2005 6:51AM

I will send any amount with references, unless the person is known by me, personally.

In Mark's case, he can have whatever he wants.

topstuf · August 15, 2005 7:12AM

What about approvals to Nigeria? I mean if the guy is honest and all.

kyleknap · August 15, 2005 7:13AM

Asking for two or three quick references (even just of other forum members) is a very simple thing to do. If someone wants a coin on approval but can't even name one....something is amiss.

Kyle

dpoole · August 15, 2005 7:19AM

I'd expect a conversation like "You seem like a good guy, but since we haven't done business before, would you mind sending me a check or giving me a couple of references? I'll be happy to hold a check unto you decided if you liked it."

After a couple of substantial transactions that went smoothly, I might expect an approval shipment without deposit, but not until then.

coinandcurrency242 · August 15, 2005 7:25AM

I gamble money playing poker

poorguy · August 15, 2005 7:41AM

If it's a respected member that regularly posts and doesn't seem to have any outstanding problems then I would still hesitate to send them a coin on approval without some references. I think that it's only common courtesy to provide a reference if you are asking someone to ship you a coin. I don't think that they would be upset if you asked them to provide a reference or two and if they did, then I suppose that would make me worried. Why would someone not want to provide a reference if they didn't have anything to hide?

RYK · August 15, 2005 7:44AM

I agree with Brandon.

If I mustered up the cajones to ask someone with whom I have never dealt before for approval on our first transaction, I would also have the good sense to give him as many references as I could. I might even flash my Heritage Legacy™ card.

Bochiman · August 15, 2005 7:53AM

<< 

<< I really don't see the need to send a coin on approval if a return policy is offered. >>

Granted, there might not be an actual "need" for approval service.

However, shipping on approval means, among other things, that:

1) A client need not make a payment (which might have to be refunded anyway) in advance;

2) The check need not be sent, deposited and clear before the coin is shipped - much faster service;

3) The owner of the coin knows much sooner whether it is in fact sold or not.

4) The client is aware that the dealer/seller has trust in him and cares about the convenience to him.

Approval service is clearly quicker and makes for a much more efficient transaction. That upside must be weighed against the downside/risk, though.

>>

The above are some of the things that I have come to appreciate.
I don't expect coins shipped on approval but it certainly is convenient in cases #1 and #2 above and certainly helps for #4.

As mentioned already, I think it is different for a collector vs dealer. I am definitely a collector. So, I am less inclined to need/care about the business side and would do the money first, ship 2nd.

That said, there are a couple of handfuls of people on here, that by the way they "carry themselves" when they post, I would have NO problems sending them the coin(s) first and getting payment 2nd. On the flip side, there are also people on here that, the way THEY carry themselves when they post, I would either not sell to them (too much hassle potential) or make sure the funds have cleared and everything is good, before sending.

When it comes to buying, I am willing to send a check first (I never buy a coin that I can't pay cash for, even if it hurts), use a credit card (larger dealers set up for this), or give references (ie....let someone know where I am employed, know who I have dealt with and to check with them, etc).

Robgetty · August 15, 2005 8:44AM

I've been involved with small ($25 level) transactions with people on the boards when the coins have been shipped
before the money has been received. However, with anything big I would not expect someone to send it on approval.

airplanenut · August 15, 2005 9:34AM

It depends on the buyer... if they're new to me, then I hold the shipment. If I've done business/talked with substantially/know them as a long-time, respected board member, I ship sometimes without holding payment, or once we agree on a price. Really, it just depends.

Jeremy

BigE2 · August 15, 2005 9:58AM

<< I would treat him like any other first time buyer. I learned in another thread from Goldude that 80% of what is said here is BS, so that's 4:1 odds against any one of us being legit.

If you explain to him that it is your policy not to send approval coins on the first "X' number of transactions with a new customer AND assure him that the coin will be sent to him on a SIGHT-SEEN basis with full return privilige, if he is a decent chap, he will understand. >>

Geez!! 80% BS? Am I wasting my time here?

BAJJERFAN · August 15, 2005 10:04AM

I guess for me it would depend on who it was. There are a few I have not done business with, but most of those I would probly do the first deal to be payment first then ship the coin.

FatMan · August 15, 2005 10:10AM

The sale of a coin is a business transaction. As such, no one should ever be offended by requests for references. I personally would request references for a transaction over $500.

Hey coinguy1, a little nervous about not asking me for references?

wayneherndon · August 15, 2005 10:11AM

If I had a policy concerning amount I'd send a forum member on approval with no references, I would not post it out of concern that the policy would be abused or that it would limit my ability to deny credit in some situations. As it is, I'm happy to send coins on approval to board members with appropriate industry references. I will also send them without references in certain circumstances if the transaction "feels" okay to me based on other factors. Credit limits and whether I'll do it at all depend on the person and other details of the transaction. It is roughly the same mental risk assessment I use when deciding whether or not to take a check at a coin show.

WH

barberlover · August 15, 2005 10:24AM

Im a collector, not a dealer or an approval service, you buy a coin from me, then I want my money up front "done deal". Never yet have I had a complaint for inacurate descriptions except one dealer told me I exagerate {spelling?} the negative aspects of any coin I sell.

One of the best experiences I've had with doing buisness this way with forum members is I've never been stiffed and if I'm ever active in the hobby again on the aquisition side, I have more references then I'll ever need.

Les

arlea1957 · August 15, 2005 10:32AM

<< This is primarily a social venue. Your business is another thing. I would use your normal business practices regarding coins on approval.

BTW, the most I have ever sent to Russ on approval was $.50.

I buy from forum members all the time. I send the money, then they send the coin(s). We stay friends that way.

Joe >>

I agree , I have bought from many forum members and sometimes it took a few payments, I would never ask a forum member to send me a coin to look at...nor would I let them send me a coin I have not completely paid for.... maybe just me but I like it that way. Another point is that most members have a no questions asked return policy....so why not pay first,

As for Russ I may send him a raw kennedy for approval..

How big of a gambler are you? How much faith do you have in your fellow forum member? What $ amount

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