Question for the Bust collectors regarding raw coins?

stman · July 20, 2005 4:23PM

Do you feel comfortable buying raw Bust material, and if so.... do you feel a need to have them slabbed after purchase?

It's a known fact that many Bust collectors prefer their coins "Naked." Many people feel if the coin isn't certified
there must be a reason. More-so with an expensive coin.
As you are probably aware there are a bunch of raw coins out there that have been held in strong hands and remain raw.
And lot's of them are great coins. There is nothing like holding a nice original Bust half under a light with no plastic in the way
to see the true colors of the coin, let alone the edge lettering.

I have some mid-circulated grade raw Bust halves and actually enjoy them more than their higher grade entombed sisters.
I'm also about to go after a very nice and expensive (for me) raw Bust half. I feel very comfortable in doing so. Will I get it certified should
I end up owning it? I dunno.

Probably not.

coinlieutenant · July 20, 2005 4:30PM

I dont mind buying raw and it depends on the coin whether or not I like them slabbed, usually I do.

JrGMan2004 · July 20, 2005 4:35PM

Makes no difference to me, slabbed or raw, it'll soon end up raw in my collection

Darkmane · July 20, 2005 4:40PM

ive bought a couple, both slabbed. most pieces have been slightly messed with in the last couple hundred years.... its nice to know if a TPG deems it acceptable or not. that and im a total newb who cant spot problems 100% of the time

stman · July 20, 2005 4:40PM

OK, how bout a 500.00 raw coin? 1K raw coin? 5K raw coin? Does it make a difference?

BTW, Knowing most of the Bust collectors around here I can about predict their responses. Perhaps we can pull
some of the lurkers out of the shadows.

LeeG · July 20, 2005 10:28PM

I feel comfortable buying Raw Bust pieces from reputable dealers who handle this material. I bought an 1810 raw from Dennis at Jade and it's still Raw and in my DANSCO 7070. I also have an 1832 in a Slab, depends on the coin, dealer, price what I purchase.

OKbustchaser · July 20, 2005 10:45PM

<< OK, how bout a 500.00 raw coin? 1K raw coin? 5K raw coin? Does it make a difference?

BTW, Knowing most of the Bust collectors around here I can about predict their responses. Perhaps we can pull
some of the lurkers out of the shadows. >>

Care to predict my response?

MrHalfDime · July 20, 2005 11:11PM

All of my bust half dimes are raw. Many were bought in slabs, but all are now raw. My most expensive bust half dime (an 1833 LM-5/V10, R8) was purchased raw, in VF-20 condition; it was purchased for the die marriage, and not the grade. I have no reservations about buying raw half dimes, as I have learned how to grade them properly over many years. All of my half dimes have my own grades on the holders, and tend to be very conservative grades that I can justify and live with. When and if I ever sell them, I am sure I will be quite pleased with the grades that others eventually place on them. A raw coin is one that can be studied, it can be weighed, it can have its diameter measured, it can have its specific gravity measured, and it is one that can be fully appreciated.

Blackhawk · July 20, 2005 11:39PM

I have had both raw and slabbed. One thing that I've noticed though, is that many collectors grade raw bust half dollars fairly harshly without consideration given to their die characteristics.

TahoeDale · July 21, 2005 12:00AM

Stman,

There are 2 or more schools on slabbing raw bust halves, and even more thought on which slabs to buy.

Each collector to his own methods=nothing wrong with any direction.

But I buy only slabbed busts-dollars, halves and quarters, and it is because of the price. Since I am looking for MS or better examples, and/or AU in the real early dates, I need to know that the coins will grade.

The difference between a 63 and 64 for the 1836 Reeded edge half is too great to buy it raw. And the difference between an NGC and PCGS 1815 in similar grades is also substantial. In each case, several thousand dollars is involved.

But the more common dates in VF to AU can be collected in any form desired. Without too much concern about the ultimate grade at a later time.

tmot99 · July 21, 2005 12:46AM

I end up buying slabbed. The main reason is that is how I find them. The places I am looking usually have bust material already slabbed. Depending on who I am buying from, I wouldn't have problems buying raw. As far as getting it slabbed or not, it would depend on the coin and the reason I bought it. If I am filling a hole in a book, obvously no, it wouldn't get slabbed. I did get my 1799 draped bust dollar slabbed but more for protection than anything, plus I had a freebie grading to use.

downhome · July 21, 2005 1:49AM

I'm just getting into bust coinage, love'um raw and circulated.

Cladiator · July 21, 2005 2:53AM

I think as a bust collector you pretty much must be able to accurately access and grade your busties as 99% of the circulated pieces are raw. Getting comfortable with raw coins should be the #1 goal of a bust collector in my opinion. As to whether you keep them raw or slab them yourself is entirely up to you and doesn't change the fact that you need to be "raw savy". Many keep them raw, some have them slabbed (myself included) and all probably for different reasons. When you're buying though it's almost always going to be a raw coin unless you are going for high grade unc. coins or key dates.

mozin · July 21, 2005 3:00AM

My Bust coins are all slabbed and worth at least $200 each. My experience with submitting raw circulated Bust coins has not been pleasant with any of the TPGs. Having to re-submit repeatedly to get the correct grade is a hassle I do not need. My standards require my coins to be acceptable for grading at the services, not ANACS net grading. I realize that many of my 200 year old coins have been slightly "improved" somewhere along the way but if the grading service agreed to holder them I am satisfied.

TPG coins valued at $200 or more are much easier to sell at a fair price than raw coins. Many Bust raw coin collectors don't like to admit this but I am convinced it takes a very special raw coin to bring any kind of premium, AND the number of bidders is diminished by those of us demanding TPG. When some of the top Bust Half collections are sold the most valuable coins are sent to TPG before auction time. The exceptions would be those coins that would be BB.

Danegeld · July 21, 2005 3:03AM

I feel comfortable in buying (raw) bust halves, and I rarely ever get them graded. On the other hand, I've also bought graded pieces too. It just depends on the coins and the seller, their reputation is important.

Take care
Ben

stman · July 21, 2005 3:22AM

All great responses folks, and I appreciate it.

<< Care to predict my response? >>

I could predict your response but always enjoy reading them.

Baley · July 21, 2005 3:25AM

I only collect Draped Bust coins in the grades of MS69 and PR69DCAM,
and I only trust PCGS to make the determination if the coin makes the grade and/or designation
The other third-party graders have looser standards so my gem draped bust coins must be certified by PCGS

lordmarcovan · July 21, 2005 3:42AM

<< Do you feel comfortable buying raw Bust material, and if so.... do you feel a need to have them slabbed after purchase? >>

Absolutely. And no. While I'm not adverse to a little plastic with the higher-grade pieces, I like most of 'em jest fine "nekkid".

Nysoto · July 21, 2005 5:10AM

Stman,

Yes, I am comfortable with buying raw bust coins, and no, I have yet to spend a nickel at the grading services, although I am planning on getting a single coin slabbed soon so I can stick it in the NGC registry

. I would spend 5K on a raw bust coin, most likely a rarity. I collect from VG to MS, and yeah the F-XF circulated stuff is a lot of fun and there is no reason to get them slabbed .

However, the last few years the majority of my pre-turban purchases have been slabbed coins. The best 1794-1807 coins on the market at auctions or dealers are in PCGS, NGC or ANACS slabs, regardless of grade. There are only a few exceptions to this such as Sheridan Downey, who can be trusted to accurately assess raw coins. There is a financial risk in cracking an expensive coin, so I usually I keep them in the slab, but I still have a lot of raw ones to play around with, weigh them, measure them, study the edges, etc.

I have contacted both NGC and PCGS about designing a slab that would allow the lettered edge to be seen, NGC said they were studying it, David Hall said this area of the market was too small to be financially viable. If more of us would lobby for this, they may change their minds.

Lots of different opinions on this, there is no "right" answer, its what you are comfortable with

.

LanLord · July 21, 2005 5:14AM

I really don't like bust coins in coffins.

It robs you of the ability to review one of the most interesting sides of those coins.

The value of the coin is not an issue, be prepared to pay what it is worth, but be ready to determine what it is worth.

I have bought some fairly expensive bust coins both raw and entombed, I like raw better (but that may be sharing too much).

stman · July 21, 2005 5:51AM

<< There is a financial risk in cracking an expensive coin, so I usually I keep them in the slab >>

Nysoto, good point and this is how I usually handle the situation as well. In a way it's too bad though.
I believe for mid circulated Bust material they can be sold to the right people very easily raw.
The higher the value the less players will go for it. When buying raw, this can be a good thing.

Some tough coins can come available raw that many collectors will never even consider.

GullibleNewb · July 21, 2005 6:44AM

IMO, there's never a reason to slab G-lowAU capped bust coinage, unless you want them attributed I suppose. And if you look at enough coins you should at least have a feel for the strikes of different years.

But for someone like myself, I'd advise never purchasing a MS-capped or any draped or earlier (whatever grade) unslabbed. My type bust half is a 1926 NGC-62, that unslabbed I doubt I could find a dealer to give me more than AU58 money if I were to decide to upgrade at some point. Yes, I've read all of the discussions on busties with nice eye appeal getting the "bump" into MS. I think mine falls into that catagory, cause she's a crusty looker with light rose toning and a full strike, but I really have my doubts about MS.

I'd NEVER buy an unslabbed bust dollar or such, I simply don't have the knowledge you need.

Gary

Barndog · July 29, 2005 5:22AM

I prefer raw bust coins and will never send a raw one to a TPG. The slabs hinder my ability to appreciate the coin, to quickly and easily determine die marriage (especially the NGC holders), and they make storage an extra hassle. I also like holding these coins in my hand and wonder who else in the course of history has held the same coin. I'd send 20th Century coins to TPGs all day, but never one of these precious busties. I use the 2" x 2" Intercept Shield holders for my bust coins. Nice fit, nice contrast in color, and ease of opening. Plus, the "extra" space on the holder allows me to attach a small label with grade and die marriage information.

As for the belief held by some that raw bust coins may not sell as well as slabbed coins, take a look at the following completed eBay auction (this is the LM-9.2/W-14 die marriage) of a coin that looks to have a minor problem on the obverse:

R-7 Capped Bust Half Dime

Given that when the Logan Collection sold in 2002 with the AU+ (If I recall correctly) R-7 1832 LM-9.2/W-14 at $2,200, one realizes that the eBay winning bid was not a high price to pay for this die marriage...IMHO.

With my preferred series (Capped Bust Half Dimes), I am looking for die marriages first and foremost. The grade of the coin is secondary as long as the coin has sufficient remaining detail to determine its die marriage. Take a look at the icon displayed by JrGMan2004. That coin looks worn to the point of being non-collectable by some (AG-3 too Good?). CBHD fanatics recognize it as the obverse of both the LM-3/D-5 and the Redbook "small 5C" variety (LM-4/V-2). Of course, JrGMan2004's coin is the rare (R-6) LM-3/D-5, whereas the "small 5C" variety is only R-3. The Greysheet would have JrGMan2004's coin selling for less than $25. I think it is a bargain for ten times that amount (especially since I need one for my CBHD collection!).

This forum gets better and better every day...with more bust coinage posts!

busco69 · July 29, 2005 7:07AM

I like them raw much better no matter how expensive the coin may be.

TomB · July 29, 2005 7:48AM

It doesn't matter to me if the coin is raw or slabbed when I buy it, as long as I like it. Once in my hands, however, I have been known to crack these coins out and let them be free. This also holds for Barber coinage. Over the years I have sent a few (three or four) Bust halves in for grading but these were pieces sent in to increase liquidity on coins I knew I would later sell.

relayer · July 29, 2005 8:01AM

I think the most expensive raw coin I've bought was $1,250 (a Capped Bust Dime)

Usually I'm not comfortable buying a raw coin over $500

OnlyBuffalos · July 29, 2005 8:49AM

The following is my experience and opinion on bust halfs:

Original halfs are getting more difficult to find and the premium for them is quite high especially for pre 1821 dates.

The grading services are far from equal. PCGS is less forgiving and a PCGS AU grade is tougher to make versus any other service. Many sellers who have their coins in PCGS holders will "upgrade" to NGC before offering the coin for sale. An NGC AU50 will realize more than a PCGS XF45 even though it is the same coin.

Many AU58 coins get that grade because of eye-appeal even though they may show considerable wear..

Even though ANACS and NGC list the Overton number, attribution is only about 95% accurate.

PCGS carries a rather substantial premium on eBay, less so in major auctions and even less so in specialized auctions.

ANACS has tightened quite a bit in the last year.

The majority of slabbed busts have been at least lightly cleaned.

Draped bust half grades lack consistency in any holder.

billboat · July 29, 2005 8:59AM

I love raw bust halves--mine is only a date set (VG to AU) and I lack 4---when I get a 1815/2 I'll buy it slabbed and crack it for my collection. I've got a lot of slabbed coins--the bust series just doesn't seem to fit/belong in slabs.

Myqqy · July 29, 2005 10:09AM

Bust halves are the one series that I'm into that I prefer purchasing raw- and I don't have any plans on slabbing any of the bust halves that I've acquired so far.......

Danegeld · July 29, 2005 1:09PM

<< Bust halves are the one series that I'm into that I prefer purchasing raw- and I don't have any plans on slabbing any of the bust halves that I've acquired so far.......

>>

I've noticed a slight lightening up in the availability of Bust Half material on eBay over the years. Probably due to an increase in collectors of the type. i mean they don't make em anymore...

Better buy while you can
Ben

Question for the Bust collectors regarding raw coins?

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