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Do you suppose that it would be good for business (for all services) if they all started net grading

Suppose PCGS started slabbing corroded, scratched, bent, etc. coins with a net grade. Well, if they were a little easier than ANACS, it might generate a large number of submissions from people trying to get higher grades for their ANACS net graded coins.

If PCGS were a bit tougher with net grading, it still might generate many submissions, as PCGS coins might command higher prices on the market.

The point is that there are a lot of problem coins out there... Are the services taking as much advantage of the opportunity as possible? With their current policies, are they serving collectors as well as they could be?

What do you think?

Dan

Comments

  • "Kool-Aid" addicts wouldn't stand for it......... and "collectors" don't care !!!!!!!!!
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  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570

    It wouldn't be good for ANACS's business, because it distinguishes them in the marketplace.

    And It wouldn't be good for NGC or PCGS because they would lose the perception that they don't grade problem coins, which distinguishes them in the marketplace.
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  • ERER Posts: 7,345
    Never liked net grading. They can't even agree on grading nonproblem coins.
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293
    I suspect PCGS doesn't want to encourage problem coins being submitted. Actually NGC does take problem coins and their genuine label is showing up more and more at auction, especially for classic rare coins and copper.
    morgannut2
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    I believe that all coins that are submitted should be returned encapsulated, if they are genuine.

    If TPG standards are not met to grade the coin, then return it in a "Genuine business strike" or "Genuine Proof Striking". No need to mention why the coin is ungraded. Just "Genuine..."

    In this manner, all submitters would get something for their money.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

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  • 09sVDB09sVDB Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭
    God for bussiness $$ bad for the hobby.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Who says NGC and PCGS don't slab problem coins? I've seen early low grade rare date coins with problems in both their holders and I know ANACS would net grade them.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • ERER Posts: 7,345


    << <i>I believe that all coins that are submitted should be returned encapsulated, if they are genuine.

    If TPG standards are not met to grade the coin, then return it in a "Genuine business strike" or "Genuine Proof Striking". No need to mention why the coin is ungraded. Just "Genuine..."

    In this manner, all submitters would get something for their money. >>

    image100%
  • I think it would be good if there was an industry standard for net grading. I sent a coin (Reverse) to ANACS because they net grade. But, my grading skills suck. I didn’t even know that the coin had been cleaned.

    Because it was whizzed, the net grade was two positions lower. If that is an industry standard, ok.
    COTC
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  • YES
    Everything I write is my opinion.

    Looking for alot of crap.
  • p8ntp8nt Posts: 2,947 ✭✭✭


    << <i>he point is that there are a lot of problem coins out there... Are the services taking as much advantage of the opportunity as possible? With their current policies, are they serving collectors as well as they could be? >>


    I think it would be horrible for the collecting market. The TPG companies are taking close to full potential advantage. Although they "do not slab problem coins" and if they decided to they would have more submissions. But on the other hand, there would be no BB's. Its up to you to weigh the two situations.

    1. All coins get slabbed no matter what. Some have a net grade but all get slabbed.

    OR

    2. All "no problem" coins get slabbed. "Problem coins" get a BB but are still required to pay the $$.

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  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PCGS already does it, especially with very difficult, early material. They just don’t tell you...

    Dave
    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>1. All coins get slabbed no matter what. Some have a net grade but all get slabbed.

    OR

    2. All "no problem" coins get slabbed. "Problem coins" get a BB but are still required to pay the $$. >>

    Not necessarily. If you do as Julian suggests, you don't even *grade* the coin; it becomes like an NCS coin that's certified as "genuine." It wouldn't have a grade at all.

    IMO, when you submit a coin, you are paying for not only a grading, but authentication. If a coin can't be graded because of problems, fine. But why can't it be authenticated?

    The bottom line is this: If you submit a high-value, key-date coin for grading -- especially a circulated one -- the chances are that the authentication of the coin is as important as -- if not more important than -- the actual grade assigned. And if you pay to submit a coin for grading and authentication, even if you can't grade the coin because of problems, why can't you authenticate it? Seems to me you've *paid* for that service, and if the coin can be authenticated like any other 1909-S VDB or 1916-D dime or 1893-S Morgan, then it should be -- even if NO GRADE is assigned.

    In fact, I don't think a grade (not even a net grade) should be assigned. You can make it ineligible for registry sets if you want. Or not include them in a population census. But I do think that if you pay to have a key date slabbed, they should be able to at least *authenticate* it.
  • p8ntp8nt Posts: 2,947 ✭✭✭
    Maybe it would be in PCGS benefit to add a "Certification" tier? That way people can just send the coin to be authenticated..
  • Exactly, Ziggy. When I sent my coin in to ANACS, I honestly didn’t care what grade it received, But, I was very concerned that it was genuine.

    I will have to say, in my case of not being able to grade, that I appreciate the information that my coin had been cleaned.

    p8nt, I agree with you, but authentication should be included in the submission price. Most people in this forum, except me, upon receiving an authentication, but not a grade, would probably know why.
    COTC
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  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Keep it the way it is now where PCGS and NGC do not slab problem coins, unless very minor problems. If a problem coin, send it to ANACS and get a net grade. I don't like to own net graded coins.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • mirabelamirabela Posts: 5,097 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>PCGS already does it, especially with very difficult, early material. They just don’t tell you... >>



    Exactly. They do it all the time, and so does NGC. Sometimes the problems aren't all that trivial, either.

    I prefer ANACS' way of doing things, but I couldn't care less whether or not NGC or PCGS get in on it.
    mirabela
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,644 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NGC and PCGS absolutely net grade, on BOTH the plus and minus side. Coins with technical details at one grade can go up with good surfaces or nice toning. Or vice versa.

    I think PCGS may better off NOT coming out with a "genuine" holder. Because when a coin gets BBed, it kind of encourages folks to try the same coin again. I have a coin I've been meaning to send in, maybe worth a thousand bucks as is, but double in a holder. It's on the edge of acceptability and definitely worth "trying" a few times.
  • MyqqyMyqqy Posts: 9,777
    PCGS already does it, especially with very difficult, early material. They just don’t tell you...
    Exactly. They do it all the time, and so does NGC. Sometimes the problems aren't all that trivial, either.

    I totally agree with this- and part of the problem is that their policies on problem coins are inconsistent- coins should be authenticated and put into slabs, not just bodybagged with your fee taken from you. It's a hyprocrital policy to not slab "problem" coins, when vast numbers of 19th century coins are slabbed and are completely not "original"....
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !


  • << <i> PCGS already does it, especially with very difficult, early material. They just don’t tell you... >>



    NGC does it as well. There aremany, many lightly cleaned early issues in both slabs and not a word about it.
    ...AlaBill
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    Yes, it would be good for business (as evidenced by the fact that they all do it, PCGS and NGC just won't admit it).
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • mhammermanmhammerman Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭
    There is certainly a place for net grading on some series. Early copper, very rare issues, early gold ex-jewelry coins, what I've begun to title "Legacy" coins, there are a number of situations where this seems like it would be good for the hobby to legitimize these coins as opposed to BBing these issues.

    Now...on the other hand, if it were used to add legitimacy to someone like morgan makers, give that bump in grade, crossing...all the little things people are doing to squeeze a couple of more bucks out of an already questionable coin then NO, it is not a good thing. I hate seeing the way people are pushing coins way beyond their value to where some newbie sees "slab" and scarfs it up like a rooster on a fresh june bug...dealer makes a few bucks, newbie has a 10 year wait to break even with a bad coin, if he does at all, and he still has a problem coin no matter what the "net graded" slab says. It lets in the harshly cleaned, AT, etc...

    jmho
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,752 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Net grading for PCGS and NGC would be a bad idea. Net grading has always been controversial because no one can agree on how much the sharpness grade would need to be lowered to compensate for the problem(s). Net grading would also damage the image of both companies because a lot more profoundly ugly coins would end up in their holders.

    If the truth were known PGCS and NGC both net grade coins from time to time. Most often they do it for scarcer early coins that have less severe defects. It’s not a practice that does the companies proud, and it’s one that aggravates some collectors. Many collectors prefer coins that have “honest grades.” By that I mean that most collectors would prefer to have a no problem VF-30 than an EF-45 piece by sharpness that has lost 10 points to a defect.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Net grading for PCGS and NGC would be a bad idea. Net grading has always been controversial because no one can agree on how much the sharpness grade would need to be lowered to compensate for the problem(s). Net grading would also damage the image of both companies because a lot more profoundly ugly coins would end up in their holders. >>

    But what if they don't net grade? What if they only authenticate? They could easily put those in a holder with, say, a different color label, and merely indicate "genuine."

    That way, the person who pays for the grading and authentication at least gets the authentication they paid for, and there's really no confusing ungraded "genuine only" coins with the "implied quality" of PCGS and NGC-graded coins.

    (It should be noted that through NCS, NGC is already doing this sort of thing.)
  • mirabelamirabela Posts: 5,097 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think authentication is part of the question for a minority of coins submitted. Gold, yes. Key dates, yes.

    But what about your ordinary AU 19th century type coin? What are the chances your raw reeded edge half is counterfeit? It might be more valuable if it were!
    mirabela
  • DJCDJC Posts: 787
    I would prefer that all genuine coins, if submitted, be slabbed. Instead of net grading, just note the problem (ie, AU scratched obverse or F whizzed and cleaned, etc) Personally, I would prefer removal of as much "judgement call" criteria from grading as possible. Simple technical grade on the basis of wear (AG, G, VG, F, VF, EF, AU, and MS only, leave the numbers out of it) and let the buyer determine the level of eye appeal, overall aesthetics, and level of detraction for any noted problems. It's what (many) collectors do anyway.

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