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Hypothetical #10 - Collector sells Added Mintmark

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Suppose you're an experienced collector. You buy a PCGS AU-58 1914-D Lincoln from another collector. You think it's undergraded so you crack it and resubmit it. This time, PCGS says the mintmark has been added. You show it around and the consensus is that the coin has indeed been altered. Even though the coin is no longer in the PCGS holder, does the seller have to give you your money back?
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

Comments

  • mallardmallard Posts: 69
    NO.
  • FC57CoinsFC57Coins Posts: 9,140 ✭


    << <i>Suppose you're an experienced collector. You buy a PCGS AU-58 1914-D Lincoln from another collector. You think it's undergraded so you crack it and resubmit it. This time, PCGS says the mintmark has been added. You show it around and the consensus is that the coin has indeed been altered. Even though the coin is no longer in the PCGS holder, does the seller have to give you your money back? >>




    No - see answer to hypothetical #9
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭✭
    no
  • dragondragon Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
    No, as David Hall has said.....once the coin is cracked out, all bets are off.
  • WANNABEDEALERWANNABEDEALER Posts: 156 ✭
    you cracked it you own it
  • wjd283wjd283 Posts: 1,406


    << <i>you cracked it you own it >>






    image
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,884 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This one is pretty far fetched. This chances of PCGS missing an added mint mark is virtually nil.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    No refund. You cracked it; you owned it. An expensive lesson.
    You had a chance to use PCGS guarantee image
    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615 ✭
    No, if the seller did not represent the coin as genuine.
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570 ✭

    Yes - return the coin, not the holder
    image
    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • TrimeTrime Posts: 1,863 ✭✭✭
    Don't think so.
    Trime
  • constructconstruct Posts: 932
    No, it's my coin now.
    The strangest things seem suddenly routine.
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    "does the seller have to give you your money back?"

    No, again after cracking the coin out of the slab, all liability passed to me.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • NicNic Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No.

    My 1866 Philly Mint Set

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,709 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Once the coin has been cracked out the PCGS guarantees are erased. You can't return something that doesn't exist anymore.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414 ✭
    no
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    No. The buyer has negated the PCGS guaranty, which had monetary value.
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    No because you cracked it out.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,843 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know the mantra here for everything is, “It’s cracked out; therefore it’s yours,” BUT a really well executed glued on mint mark is really tough to spot in a slab with a concave window and a layer of plastic. It’s hard to scope the coin and even harder to catch the fake with a hand held 20X.

    Here’s an even tougher one. What about the embossed mint marks on Buffalo Nickels? The main way to catch those is to spot the anomaly on the edge where the embossing tool was inserted to push up the fake mint mark. BUT you can’t see the anomaly because the coin is in a slab.

    SO I guess it’s OK for slab companies to certify fake coins so long they can hide the diagnostics in the slab? Do you guys really believe that?

    The “It’s out the holder; it’s YOUR problem,” answer is not nearly as simple as it sounds. AND if this sort of thing because more wide-spread, the value of the that slab you have could be considerably diminished.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭
    No different than Hypo #9. I took full responsibility for the coin the moment I cracked it out.

    Edited to say I would resubmit and hope for the best.
    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    you're hosed, you shouldn't have cracked it out.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • prooflikeprooflike Posts: 3,879 ✭✭
    No.
    image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    No refund. The PCGS guarantee is no longer so the value of the coin is gone.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • CalGoldCalGold Posts: 2,608 ✭✭
    Your toast unless the collector you bought it from was the guy who added the mintmark.

    CG
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd agree with most of you that there is no recourse. However, if the seller were a dealer, my opinion would be different. I don't think there are any ways in which a dealer can sell a coin as real and not have to guaranty authenticity.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • gemtone65gemtone65 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭
    The question was whether the seller, not PCGS, was liable. After all, PCGS did not sell the coin, and their guarantee does not apply if the coin is broken out.

    For the seller, the situation is different. I would think he was indeed liable if 1) he admits he sold the coin, or 2) the buyer can prove that this is the coin he purchased from the seller. In either case, I wouldn't think it matters whether the seller knew that the coin was altered. A similar chain of responsibity would lilkey apply if the coin, for example, had been stolen.
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭
    No - once you removed it from the slab, you're stuck - on the flip side if it upgraded to a 66RD, would you have to pay the seller more $$? I think NOT.
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • gemtone65gemtone65 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭
    Numismatist: From a legal perspective, why would the court differentiate between a coin formerly slabbed by some grading company and a coin in any other plastic or paper holder, or no holder at all? I mean, if the seller admitted that he sold an altered coin, regardless of what holder it was in, why would the court not hold him responsible for fraud if he refuses to make restitution?
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Numismatist: From a legal perspective, why would the court differentiate between a coin formerly slabbed by some grading company and a coin in any other plastic or paper holder, or no holder at all? I mean, if the seller admitted that he sold an altered coin, regardless of what holder it was in, why would the court not hold him responsible for fraud if he refuses to make restitution?

    Good question. While you're at it, consider a similar scenario in which the coin is sitting in a third world slab.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

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