Hypothetical #19 - Whizzed Italian

MrEureka · June 21, 2005 9:51PM

A very experienced collector of US coins decides to start collecting Italian coins, about which he knows little. He pays full retail for an attractive but darkly toned "gem uncirculated" piece from a major US dealer. That dealer also knows little about Italian coins. The collector sends the coin to PCGS. The coin comes back seven weeks later in a bodybag, on which the coin is called "whizzed". He shows it to an expert on Italian coins and PCGS' opinion is confirmed. The 30-day return privilege has expired, but can the seller be forced to give a refund anyway?

Hedger · June 21, 2005 10:01PM

I suppose it would hinge on what the coin was actually worth. Not much being whizzed but I would offer a refund and get out of foreign coins if I were that dealer or hire someone with knowledge in taht area.

Longacre · June 21, 2005 10:07PM

No, unless they agreed in advance that the coin would be submitted and if bodybagged, the buyer gets a refund, even if after the 30 day return policy.

PerryHall · June 21, 2005 10:09PM

If he can't spot whizzing on a foreign coin, he probably can't spot it on a US coin.

Trime · June 21, 2005 10:39PM

Seems wierd.
What about being Italian makes it harder to spot a whizzed coin.
Forced?
Not to my knowledge.
Major US dealers that I would like to deal with should not be selling whizzed coins listed as gem UNC but times up on the guarentee. Very experienced collectors do not select whizzed coins ( sight seen). Sounds like an unfortunate but unlikely experience. If I were the collector I certainly would be talking with my dealer but refund or other arrangement would not be an obligation but perhaps good business practice. Laura would say this only happens when you buy from a "W". If so , in this case a "Major W"

MrEureka · June 21, 2005 11:57PM

What about being Italian makes it harder to spot a whizzed coin.

I picked that example because sometimes Italian coins have a strange luster that remotely resembles whizzing. But that's not all that important. The point was that the dealer is not an expert in Italian coins, so maybe it would be unreasonable for a buyer to claim that he relied on the dealer's expertise.

Steve27 · June 22, 2005 12:06AM

"The 30-day return privilege has expired, but can the seller be forced to give a refund anyway?"

Only at gunpoint.

ddink · June 22, 2005 12:12AM

<<
"The 30-day return privilege has expired, but can the seller be forced to give a refund anyway?"

Only at gunpoint.
>>

Bingo. "Forced" is not the right wording to use in this scenario. If the dealer clearly pointed out that he knew little about Italian coins and the collector bought it anyway, then no, he is not ethically obligated to accept a return (the collector chose to buy from an unknowledgeable dealer). However, if the dealer never mentioned his lack of experience to the collector, then he should accept the return, since the buyer assumed the dealer was an expert.

csw · June 22, 2005 12:34AM

It's MrEureka's hypothetical, so why can't he ask whether the dealer can be compelled to return the coin? He could have asked if the dealer should have returned the coin, but apparently that wasn't the question he wanted to pose. It appears that he's been wording his hypotheticals quite carefully, so I don't understand why you would posit that "'Forced' is not the right wording to use in this scenario." You answered whether the dealer should return the money, not whether the dealer must do so.

The answer is: No.

Julian · June 22, 2005 12:41AM

Probably not forced, but a good dealer would do it, again for customer relations.

jcping · June 22, 2005 1:08AM

I don't think the seller has to refund since "contract" was expired.
Also, regardless you know any foreign coin, if you can't detect whizzed coins, you can't be a "very experienced collector."
If, indeed, you are a "very experienced collector," it is an expensive for you to learn (i.e., why buy raw coins if you can't detect problem coins.)

Shamika · June 22, 2005 1:12AM

No advanced agreement was in place. The coin is authentic so the deal is done.

mgoodm3 · June 22, 2005 1:59AM

Don't need no Italian expert to figure out whizzing. Collector beware.

MadMarty · June 22, 2005 2:02AM

Andy, last time I tried to wizz on an Italian, he beat the crap out of me!!!

PerryHall · June 22, 2005 2:05AM

<< <i>Andy, last time I tried to wizz on an Italian, he beat the crap out of me!!!

>>

Funny. When I saw the titile of this thread I had the same thought.

Gator5220 · June 22, 2005 2:58AM

No, warranty has expired, and the coin was genuine.

mozin · June 22, 2005 5:37AM

Time is up so no return.

MrEureka · June 22, 2005 6:42AM

if you can't detect whizzed coins, you can't be a "very experienced collector."

Not true. A light whizzing can be surprisingly deceptive, especially if hidden by toning. I've seen more than a few top pros mess up on these.

Lakesammman · June 22, 2005 6:53AM

Is a italian whizzing like the pi$$ing minuteman??

morgannut2 · June 22, 2005 7:03AM

It's not the collector's fault PCGS is so slow. He gets a refund or wacks da dealer-

"Leave the gun, take the canoli"

MrEureka · June 22, 2005 12:33PM

I don't see why whizzing would justify special treatment under the law. The seller's off the hook.

Newmismatist · June 22, 2005 12:48PM

<< <i>can the seller be forced to give a refund anyway >>

Legally probably not.

Newmismatist · June 22, 2005 1:12PM

<< <i>Is a italian whizzing like the pi$$ing minuteman??

>>

Tim you might want to be careful as to just WHO you pi$$ off

Hey Guido - who started dis thread?

Hypothetical #19 - Whizzed Italian

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