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Hypothetical #19 - Whizzed Italian

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
A very experienced collector of US coins decides to start collecting Italian coins, about which he knows little. He pays full retail for an attractive but darkly toned "gem uncirculated" piece from a major US dealer. That dealer also knows little about Italian coins. The collector sends the coin to PCGS. The coin comes back seven weeks later in a bodybag, on which the coin is called "whizzed". He shows it to an expert on Italian coins and PCGS' opinion is confirmed. The 30-day return privilege has expired, but can the seller be forced to give a refund anyway?
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

Comments

  • HedgerHedger Posts: 1,238
    I suppose it would hinge on what the coin was actually worth. Not much being whizzed but I would offer a refund and get out of foreign coins if I were that dealer or hire someone with knowledge in taht area.
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    No, unless they agreed in advance that the coin would be submitted and if bodybagged, the buyer gets a refund, even if after the 30 day return policy.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If he can't spot whizzing on a foreign coin, he probably can't spot it on a US coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • TrimeTrime Posts: 1,863 ✭✭✭
    Seems wierd.
    What about being Italian makes it harder to spot a whizzed coin.
    Forced?
    Not to my knowledge.
    Major US dealers that I would like to deal with should not be selling whizzed coins listed as gem UNC but times up on the guarentee. Very experienced collectors do not select whizzed coins ( sight seen). Sounds like an unfortunate but unlikely experience. If I were the collector I certainly would be talking with my dealer but refund or other arrangement would not be an obligation but perhaps good business practice. Laura would say this only happens when you buy from a "W". If so , in this case a "Major W"
    Trime
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What about being Italian makes it harder to spot a whizzed coin.

    I picked that example because sometimes Italian coins have a strange luster that remotely resembles whizzing. But that's not all that important. The point was that the dealer is not an expert in Italian coins, so maybe it would be unreasonable for a buyer to claim that he relied on the dealer's expertise.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    "The 30-day return privilege has expired, but can the seller be forced to give a refund anyway?"

    Only at gunpoint.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • ddinkddink Posts: 2,748
    <<
    "The 30-day return privilege has expired, but can the seller be forced to give a refund anyway?"

    Only at gunpoint.
    >>

    Bingo. "Forced" is not the right wording to use in this scenario. If the dealer clearly pointed out that he knew little about Italian coins and the collector bought it anyway, then no, he is not ethically obligated to accept a return (the collector chose to buy from an unknowledgeable dealer). However, if the dealer never mentioned his lack of experience to the collector, then he should accept the return, since the buyer assumed the dealer was an expert.
    I heard they were making a French version of Medal of Honor. I wonder how many hotkeys it'll have for "surrender."
  • cswcsw Posts: 432 ✭
    It's MrEureka's hypothetical, so why can't he ask whether the dealer can be compelled to return the coin? He could have asked if the dealer should have returned the coin, but apparently that wasn't the question he wanted to pose. It appears that he's been wording his hypotheticals quite carefully, so I don't understand why you would posit that "'Forced' is not the right wording to use in this scenario." You answered whether the dealer should return the money, not whether the dealer must do so.

    The answer is: No.
    image

    Tiger trout, Deerfield River, c. 2001.

  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    Probably not forced, but a good dealer would do it, again for customer relations.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    I don't think the seller has to refund since "contract" was expired.
    Also, regardless you know any foreign coin, if you can't detect whizzed coins, you can't be a "very experienced collector."
    If, indeed, you are a "very experienced collector," it is an expensive for you to learn (i.e., why buy raw coins if you can't detect problem coins.)
    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭
    No advanced agreement was in place. The coin is authentic so the deal is done.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    Don't need no Italian expert to figure out whizzing. Collector beware.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
    Andy, last time I tried to wizz on an Italian, he beat the crap out of me!!!image
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,881 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Andy, last time I tried to wizz on an Italian, he beat the crap out of me!!!image >>

    imageFunny. When I saw the titile of this thread I had the same thought.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • Gator5220Gator5220 Posts: 1,194
    No, warranty has expired, and the coin was genuine.
    image
    image
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Time is up so no return. image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if you can't detect whizzed coins, you can't be a "very experienced collector."

    Not true. A light whizzing can be surprisingly deceptive, especially if hidden by toning. I've seen more than a few top pros mess up on these.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,461 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is a italian whizzing like the pi$$ing minuteman??image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • morgannut2morgannut2 Posts: 4,293 ✭
    It's not the collector's fault PCGS is so slow. He gets a refund or wacks da dealer-






    "Leave the gun, take the canoli"
    morgannut2
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see why whizzing would justify special treatment under the law. The seller's off the hook.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


    << <i>can the seller be forced to give a refund anyway >>



    Legally probably not.
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭


    << <i>Is a italian whizzing like the pi$$ing minuteman??image >>



    Tim you might want to be careful as to just WHO you pi$$ off imageimage Hey Guido - who started dis thread?
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist

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