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Hypothetical #13 - Dealer sells Added Mintmark

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Suppose you're an experienced collector. You buy a PCGS AU-58 1914-D Lincoln from a big dealer. You think it's undergraded so you crack it and resubmit it. This time, 45 days later, PCGS says the mintmark has been added. You show it around and the consensus is that the coin has indeed been altered. Even though the coin is no longer in the PCGS holder, does the seller have to give you your money back?
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

Comments

  • constructconstruct Posts: 932
    No, the seller doesn't have to give me the money back after I've cracked the slab.
    The strangest things seem suddenly routine.
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,709 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Once the coin has been cracked out it is no longer possible to return what the dealer sold you...a coin with a set of specific guarantees from PCGS. No refund.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • TrimeTrime Posts: 1,863 ✭✭✭
    No. It is now obvious to everyone including PCGS. Risk of crackout is obvious.
    Trime
  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭✭✭
    no return on coins that are removed from the holder they were sold in.
    That a good rule to understand
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Of course not.
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    "...does the seller have to give you your money back? "

    No, once you cracked it out, you assumed all liability.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    No because it was cracked out.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • ritepathritepath Posts: 266
    no way pip, it was already slabbed. lesson learned never crack a slab.
    There's only One
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,392 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Better question!! If you resubmit the coin IN THE HOLDER under the grade guarantee do you think "they" would now recognize the added D or just conveniently overlook it? Ihave no idea what they would do but what do you think they would do? In round numbers its a $1000 to $1500 coin.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, like in another example, once you crack it, you have changed it (or at least its marketability). You won it!
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • OffMetalOffMetal Posts: 1,684 ✭
    If the coin was still in the slab, then the dealer would have to give you your money back.
    But then you cracked the slab out of it's original holder, then it's not the dealer's problem anymore.

    Ben
    -Ben T. * Collector of Errors! * Proud member of the CUFYNA
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    Same answer, basically, as the whizzed '93-S Morgan.

    The time for recourse is *before* the coin is cracked out of its holder.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Suppose you bought it and told the dealer to resubmit it for a higher grade with his next shipment, at which time the dealer recommended cracking it out of the holder. Of course, the dealer still doesn't have to give you your money back, but I'd bet many of the good ones would.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    Seller does have to return the money, if he is convinced that the coin is the same one. It will come down to the relationship of the two parties and whether the dealer trusts the collector.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

    eBaystore
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,842 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you Julian.

    There situation goes beyond the "You cracked, you own it," answer when it comes to fakes and seriously altered coins.

    If I were PCGS I'd be very interested to know about the coins upon which I really made a major mistake. Certifying fakes and whizzed coins are mistakes that could absolutely kill their business. It’s the sort of thing that requires remedial action on their part.

    And as a dealer if you are working with a good or potentially good customer, you need to go the extra mile. Yea, you might win by screwing the guy once, but usually you have lost them forever.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭
    When I cracked it out, I took full ownership of the coin. Done deal!
    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • cswcsw Posts: 432 ✭
    Doesn't "have" to, but should at least consider it for purposes of maintaining good customer relations.
    image

    Tiger trout, Deerfield River, c. 2001.

  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    you break it, you buy it.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Once the dealer takes the coin back raw, he can no longer take it back to the person he bought it from or send it in for the grade garantee. The buyer should be stuck with it.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    No, when you crack it, it is your baby image
    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    It made no sense to crack it and lose the PCGS guarantee. No refund.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I take the minority view and side with Julian and Bill. Dealers guaranty authenticity unless that guaranty is expressly waived.

    Of course there may still be exceptions. Consider if the coin in question had been a recently discredited contemporary counterfeit micro- O dollar. I wouldn't expect the dealer to have to issue a refund in that scenario. Interesting...

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • CalGoldCalGold Posts: 2,608 ✭✭
    Andy, I think this was the hardest of the hypotheticals that you posted. On the one hand the dealer is a professional who should not pass altered coins on to collectors. On the other hand, by cracking it out the collector destroyed the TPG guarantee to the detriment of the dealer (assumming that the dealer had not be the submitter). So the dealer has lost the value of the guarantee and will bear a loss due to the customer's action. If the coin had been returned in the holder, I would agree that the dealer would have to refund the money but then he could submit the slabbed coin to the TPG on their guarantee.

    CG

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