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Have you ever seen someone get really ripped at a coin show? Either a dealer OR a customer?
TheLiberator
Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭
We all know it happens: the knowledagble collector rips a dealer or a dealer rips an old lady etc. What is the wildest example of this you have ever seen or heard about?
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Russ, NCNE
At the FUN show, a slimey dealer from the NE was telling me a story at our table about his best rip. I don't remember the exact details, but he saw a very rare coin in a dealer's case that did not have a price on it. It was a gold coin as I recall. He asked for a price. Well the dealer was not at the table, but his assistant was. The assistant quoted the guy $3000, but it was a $30000 coin. The assistant read the code incorrectly. The NE dealer promptly paid for the coin. When the dealer returned, he flipped his lid and tracked the guy down. He explained that the assistant made a mistake. The NE dealer said "tough sheet". The dealer got the show promoters involved, and they tried to get the guy to void the deal and return the coin, but he didn't do it and, in the long run, he kept the coin.
Funny thing is that Andy, the owner of Jade, over heard this guy's story to me. He very bluntly and loudly told the NE dealer to leave our table as we don't deal with scum balls. Andy is 6'7" and 300 lb, so the guy didn't argue much. I have seen him walk by our table at shows since then, but he never stops by.
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<< <i>Andy is 6'7" and 300 lb... >>
Geez!!!
<< <i> Andy is 6'7" and 300 lb >>
Yeah, but he'll shrink is he comes up against the HepKitty!
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<< <i>Well the dealer was not at the table, but his assistant was. >>
At the PNNA I was looking at a very nice NGC obverse rainbow bag toned 1884-O in MS64. I asked the guy for the price and he reached for the greysheet. I thought to myself "woo hoo! rip coming up!". Then he mumbled something about wishing the dealer were there because he wasn't sure, but it's probably about $50. He looks at me and asks if that price is okay. Just then the damned dealer came back!
Russ, NCNE
Did you ever hear about the time a dealer discovered a counterfeit 16-d dime in a 3rd tier holder and returned it to the slabbers table at the show and...
How about the dealer that counterfeited certificates to use at Long Beach?
Or, how about...
There's a million stories of bad dealers out there.
<< <i> Worst rip I ever saw was a kid selling a complete set of Morgans her father had given her. The dealer said they were very tarnished and 2 were missing and he only paid $7 a Morgan, but since it was they nice he'd pay her $1000 himself, if he could buy them for himself before the boss came back, and wouldn't let him pay more than $7 each. Sort of sad, but I kept quiet. >>
I'm sorry, but there's a fine line between ripping somebody and flat out stealing. This is almost criminal. I'd have to step in if I were within earshot of something like this.
Would you have really bought and kept it?
<< <i>Would you have really bought and kept it? >>
No, I would not have kept it.
Russ, NCNE
But I have a serious question....when is it/or is it ever OK to take advantage of ignorance or a mistake. Do some dealers just deserve it?
<< <i>But I have a serious question....when is it/or is it ever OK to take advantage of ignorance or a mistake. >>
If you're dealing across the table face to face with the dealer himself - he's open game.
<< <i>Do some dealers just deserve it? >>
They all deserve it.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>No, I would not have kept it. >>
Does that mean you would have given it back to the dealer? Or sold it later for a nice profit?
09/07/2006
at a two day 50+ table show near Pittsburgh last year i was helping my pal and all the dealers seemed to be doing great business----the majority of it was actually with collectors!!! sometime shortly after lunch the beer started to flow and quite a few of the guys were really ripped before the bourse closed for the day. dinner was fun, but by then they'd turned obnoxious at the expense of the waitresses and a couple diners!!!
<< <i> I don't remember the exact details, but he saw a very rare coin in a dealer's case that did not have a price on it. It was a gold coin as I recall. He asked for a price. Well the dealer was not at the table, but his assistant was. The assistant quoted the guy $3000, but it was a $30000 coin. The assistant read the code incorrectly. >>
I bet the dealer started putting prices on them after that!
<< <i>Worst rip I ever saw was a kid selling a complete set of Morgans her father had given her. The dealer said they were very tarnished and 2 were missing and he only paid $7 a Morgan, but since it was they nice he'd pay her $1000 himself, if he could buy them for himself before the boss came back, and wouldn't let him pay more than $7 each. Sort of sad, but I kept quiet. >>
Does that not, ethically, make you complicit?
<< <i>I wasn't privvy to the deal but years ago, Bruce McNall (yeah, the big collector and sports team owner) made his first big purchase at a show and it was a very rare ancient. So, McNall shows the coin around to a couple of dealers and they tell him it's counterfeit. McNall returns to the dealer that sold him the coin and tells him it's fake and wants his money back. The dealer says, "yeah, sure is but that's not the one I sold you. Have a nice day". McNall went on to bigger and better deals and the dealer is still around pulling the same crap on others.
Did you ever hear about the time a dealer discovered a counterfeit 16-d dime in a 3rd tier holder and returned it to the slabbers table at the show and...
How about the dealer that counterfeited certificates to use at Long Beach?
Or, how about...
There's a million stories of bad dealers out there. >>
I guess in every business there is a thin line between a good deal or a "rip" and a scam
"I was successful because I knew how to buy coins. I made the shop owners rich. That's where the money is - in the buying. You know you can't pay top dollar and charge the lowest prices in town. No one can make it that way. I knew how to buy. A lady came in one day and said, 'I have a coin but I don't want to sell it.' I said, 'Then how can I help you?' She said she wanted to trade it for silver dollars. You might not believe it, but she was holding a nice 1878-CC five. I asked her what she wanted to trade for, and she said she wanted eight silver dollars. I told her she could pick any eight from my case she wanted. Then I called one of the shop's owners and told him to come down to the shop right away. I gave him the five so he didn't have to share it with his partners and I never even wrote it up. I didn't like the other partners anyway. I think he sold it for ten grand.
"And see this ring? (It had a $5 Indian.) One time I was at a show where I didn't have a table when another dealer asked me to work his table while he went to lunch. While I was covering for him a guy came up and pulled out two big handfuls of loose gold coins to sell - two and a halfs, fives, eagles and double eagles. I was good at sizing people up. I could tell what they would accept right away. The guy was with his girlfriend and they didn't look like they knew much about coins. The girlfriend looked nervous and I figured the coins were stolen. So I offered him double face for the whole pile. He said, 'Hey, these are gold, aren't they?' And I said, 'Yes, but they aren't worth much. You could take them to someone else, but I pay cash and don't require any identification.' See, I wanted him to think other people would make the deal complicated. I knew the girlfriend would push him to take the money and sure enough she told him to just take the money so they could go. So when the other dealer came back I showed him what I bought and when I told him I only paid double face, he gave me this five and I had a ring made out of it."
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>
<< <i>But I have a serious question....when is it/or is it ever OK to take advantage of ignorance or a mistake. >>
If you're dealing across the table face to face with the dealer himself - he's open game.
<< <i>Do some dealers just deserve it? >>
They all deserve it.
Russ, NCNE >>
Even Russ
Jerry
<< <i>The below was ripped for $30.00 from a dealer at a local show. Then sold for over $300, then slabbed and sold for more, then offered on eBay for $10,000.
It's not a rip if nobody has bought it yet.
Is McNall out yet?
Sorry, NO WAY on God's green earth would I pay $10K...much less $300 for that coin. Not with that kind of spotting. JMHO.
<< <i> This is a conversation I had at a show last May. An older man came up to the table where I was helping out and we started chatting. He was a retired dealer who used to have a store in Pittsburgh. Now keep in mind that I'm behind a table, wearing a dealer's badge, so I think that made him comfortable relating the tales. This is just about verbatim what he told me...
"I was successful because I knew how to buy coins. I made the shop owners rich. That's where the money is - in the buying. You know you can't pay top dollar and charge the lowest prices in town. No one can make it that way. I knew how to buy. A lady came in one day and said, 'I have a coin but I don't want to sell it.' I said, 'Then how can I help you?' She said she wanted to trade it for silver dollars. You might not believe it, but she was holding a nice 1878-CC five. I asked her what she wanted to trade for, and she said she wanted eight silver dollars. I told her she could pick any eight from my case she wanted. Then I called one of the shop's owners and told him to come down to the shop right away. I gave him the five so he didn't have to share it with his partners and I never even wrote it up. I didn't like the other partners anyway. I think he sold it for ten grand.
"And see this ring? (It had a $5 Indian.) One time I was at a show where I didn't have a table when another dealer asked me to work his table while he went to lunch. While I was covering for him a guy came up and pulled out two big handfuls of loose gold coins to sell - two and a halfs, fives, eagles and double eagles. I was good at sizing people up. I could tell what they would accept right away. The guy was with his girlfriend and they didn't look like they knew much about coins. The girlfriend looked nervous and I figured the coins were stolen. So I offered him double face for the whole pile. He said, 'Hey, these are gold, aren't they?' And I said, 'Yes, but they aren't worth much. You could take them to someone else, but I pay cash and don't require any identification.' See, I wanted him to think other people would make the deal complicated. I knew the girlfriend would push him to take the money and sure enough she told him to just take the money so they could go. So when the other dealer came back I showed him what I bought and when I told him I only paid double face, he gave me this five and I had a ring made out of it." >>
Now that's what I call a slime ball!
<< <i>
Now that's what I call a slime ball!
Try criminal. He robbed the old lady and knowingly purchased stolen goods. Makes the average Ebay slimeball look like a saint.
...a coin dealer in the early 1970s ran ads in the LA Times offering to buy silver. An elderly couple brought in an original roll of cherry BU 1930 Standing Liberty quarters. The dealer paid them melt for the coins. Did he do anything wrong???
Is there a question here?
Joe.
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I also went down to test a guy who ran a full page ad in our local paper buying coins. I brought some slabbed material that Bluesheeted at $1,850 and he offered me $600. I also told him I had three bags of silver, and he offered $3000 a bag (I could have wholsaled them at a show for $5000 at the time). He said he would only make 10% on the deal.
Most dealers are good guys and it is unfortunate that the very small sleazeball minority give the good guys a bad name.
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<< <i>The dealer said $30 and the other dealer bought it. It was a Proof Morgan! >>
Dealers eating their own young.
Russ, NCNE
I remember seeing a local dealer when I was young, he's no longer around, pay the grand sum of $10 to the proverbial little old lady for what seemed to be a sharp AU Seated Half she pulled from her purse, never got a look at the date. Then again, the other day I overheard a lady try to sell a 1915-D Quarter (she of course didn't have it with her) to a local dealer and informed him that "the internet" had told her it was worth $500, a price she seemed quite firm on.
Somewhere in between these extremes lie nice coins in the hands of knowledgable collectors - I guess?
09/07/2006
However, since the original question asked if one has seen a rip of a dealer or collector at a show, I can say that earlier this year I have cherrypicked (I guess that may be a nice way to say "ripped") dealers at a show and in their shops. At the sprin Santa Clara show I bought a 1967 SMS Set that had the finest looking quarter in it that I have ever seen in person or on this forum. IMHO it is at least MS67 and is a lock CAM+ and probably a DCAM. The quarter alone is worth far more than the $20.00 I paid for the set. I also picked up in a shop a few weeks ago a 1952 Proof Set with a CAM+/DCAM Frankie and a 1950 Proof Set with a CAM Frankie, possible CAM nickel and possible CAM cent. I also picked up a set of 1950-1990 MS quarters in a Postal Commemorative Society Album. All of the coins are definitely MS, however some of them are MS 65 or higher and are stunningly beautiful in appearance. One or two of the coins alone may be worth more than what I paid for the set.
Do I feel bad about my acquistion of these coins from dealers who either did not know about the fact that CAMDCAM coins were in the proof sets and did not know about the super high grade quarters, or who knew about them and simply did not care? No, not in the least.
Dealers are in business and are supposed to have superior knowledge. All dealers can not know everything about all segments of the hobby and thus if a collector who specializes in an area knows more than a dealer sees something that a dealer does not know about, more power to the collector. If one suspects that the dealer may have made a mistake in labelling/pricing, good morals and ethics require that the dealer be informed.
Dealers ripping/stealing from ignorant members of the public are another thing entirely and again it makes me want to puke. Boasting about it afterward makes me want to puke even more.
Box of 20
<< <i>I wasn't privvy to the deal but years ago, Bruce McNall (yeah, the big collector and sports team owner) made his first big purchase at a show and it was a very rare ancient. So, McNall shows the coin around to a couple of dealers and they tell him it's counterfeit. McNall returns to the dealer that sold him the coin and tells him it's fake and wants his money back. The dealer says, "yeah, sure is but that's not the one I sold you. Have a nice day". McNall went on to bigger and better deals and the dealer is still around pulling the same crap on others.
Did you ever hear about the time a dealer discovered a counterfeit 16-d dime in a 3rd tier holder and returned it to the slabbers table at the show and...
How about the dealer that counterfeited certificates to use at Long Beach?
Or, how about...
There's a million stories of bad dealers out there. >>
I work with Bruce's lawyer from back when he was a "business man". He has some interesting stories about those times. (before he went to jail of course)
<< <i>But I also believe its the sellers responsiblitility to know what he or she has before attempting to sell it >>
Generally speaking, and for most things in life, I find myself agreeing with that statement. It's a tough world, and each of us should earn our breaks and not expect anybody to hand them to us. We do this by taking the time to learn.
That said, coins - and collectibles in general - are kind of a special category. For many people the only place they have to turn for knowledge is the dealers themselves. It is easy for these people to assume that the dealer is an honest professional who will give them the straight scoop. It is also easy for them to get screwed.
Russ, NCNE
Box of 20
<< <i>
<< <i>The below was ripped for $30.00 from a dealer at a local show. Then sold for over $300, then slabbed and sold for more, then offered on eBay for $10,000.
It's not a rip if nobody has bought it yet. >>
I bought it and then made a quick $270 profit. Is that not a RIP?
09/07/2006
Store owners can be good guys but their goal is to pay as little as possible for what comes in off the street. I've seen multiple coins worth $10K-40K each bought for 20-30 cents on the dollar. One dealer in my area often pays 1/10 to 1/50 of the value of the coin.
If you walk in with a BU Morgan silver dollar you just may get $3 for it. How about $200 for a nice matte proof $2-1/2 Indian. This goes on every day of the week. And this owner keeps getting the coins.
And the reasoning is that they cannot exist without getting those major rips somewhat regularly. How about paying $200 for a Fine $1795 half. That would be typical in this shop.
roadrunner
Article 9:
To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers:
(a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices;
(b) using high pressure sales techniques;
(c) using misleading performance data;
(d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression;
(e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin;
(f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin;
(g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin.
(h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins;
(i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency.
Part of the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics:
As an ANA member dealer, I agree to
comply with the following principles:
To comply with the ANA Member Codeof Ethics.
To purchase and sell numismatic items at
prices commensurate with a reasonable
return to the seller and for a reasonable
return on my investment with regards to
the then prevailing rate.
To furnish my clientele with advice on
numismatic information to the best of
my ability.
To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries,
counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered
coins or other spurious numismatic
merchandise that is not clearly labeled
as such.
Thus, buying Saints for $200 and BU Morgans for $3 appears to violate the ANA and PNG code of ethics. If the shop owner Roadrunner referenced belongs to the ANA, he is violating their code of ethics.
Of course most of the scumbags probably do not (I hope) belong to the ANA and/or PNG, but some probably do. However, I would think many show organizers belong to the ANA, and as such, should expect dealers buying tables at the show to follow ANA ethics, even if they do not belong to the ANA.
It seems there is no honor among theives.
Oscar Wilde
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
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Billy
Nope, just me
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<< <i> <<It has not happened with coins, but many is the time I have given the high sign to potential victims of fake signatures, furniture, paintings etc
You must have started collecting just yesterday.
I think you mistakenly assumed that "it hasn't happened in coins" to mean literally just that? It means I have not involved or "interfered" with any coin sales-mostly as I don't do shows. I was speaking of my many years of quietly helping out unsuspecting people when it comes to the areas I mentioned. Apologies if I misunderstood you
Best,
Billy