The New Bison Nickels

martif · May 25, 2005 5:49PM

I just bought 17 sets of these nickels, as well as 1 P and 1 D 500 coin bag directly from the mint. I opened 1 set up just to check them out. Let me tell you, out of 80 nickels, I couldn't find 1 that was even close to being eligible for grading. What terrible quality control. Every one was nicked or had marks on the Jefferson face. I would have though that these sets directly from the mint would have been my best bet for the best coins. Boy, was I wrong. I think that once they are sold out at the mit, I will put them on E-Bay and just try to get my investment back. Same thing with the 2005 proof sets. The cameo on some of the quarters was smeared into the mirror. Ugly.

mademan · May 25, 2005 7:15PM

I have had a little better luck from the mint with my proof sets but that new nickel is a magnet for nicks. Hey here is a fun game. as you look thru your rolls or bags only look at the bison side first( my experience is the bison side is less prone to hits) then just when you find a real beauty TURN IT OVER. And let the tears begin. It is a nightmare to find a nice coin. I was tempted to buy a MS64 bison to see what PCGS will allow. So MARTIF you are not alone in your struggle. Don /MM

SilverDollarMan · May 25, 2005 9:17PM

U should have bought rolls

martif · May 25, 2005 9:29PM

I know what you mean about the Bison side. They do look good. I have only opened 1 P and 1 D roll so far. I haven't touched the bags at all yet. I think that I have a losing investment because once the word gets out about the quality, no one is going to want to buy these rolls, even after the mint is sold out. I just couldn't believe that I couldn't even find one good one. I wonder if the bags go thru the same treatment as the rolls, or if maybe the bag coins might be better. I would hate to open up a 500 bag just to find that they stink too.

Any thoughts?

19Lyds · May 25, 2005 9:57PM

Most of the bag coins stink as bad as the rolls! Personally I think the only value that either if these have is for sellout/resale. I am beginning to think that the design of the coin, where the metal is loaded to one side on the obverse, in conjunction with the actual press ejection processes is what is killing these coins! I am looking forward to the matte uncirc sets to see if the quality improves any.

ddink · May 25, 2005 10:43PM

Quality control? The bags and rolls are coins that were made for circulation and put into special "containers." They themselves are not specially made. They are regular business strikes. Martif, if you haven't opened them all, you can return the unopened ones to the Mint within 30 days for a replacement or refund.

littlejohn · May 26, 2005 12:47AM

SilverDollarMan · May 26, 2005 2:41AM

<< HI
I HAVE sent over 45 of them to pcgs so far,and thay are graded them very lose, done got two ms66 ,but all these was speared bison too.
littlejohn >>

Have u REC'd them back, yet? I'm wondering how PCGS labeled them? ie.... "Speared" or what? Thanks

flaminio · May 26, 2005 2:56AM

<< Let me tell you, out of 80 nickels, I couldn't find 1 that was even close to being eligible for grading. What terrible quality control. >>

I'd just like to point out that the mint does not make these nickels with the intent of getting into high-grade plastic. Coins are made for spending, and I'm sure all 80 you checked were quite adequate for that purpose.

MFH · May 26, 2005 3:18AM

I'm just happy that I found one in change today for the first time.

Outhaul · May 26, 2005 3:27AM

<< Coins are made for spending, and I'm sure all 80 you checked were quite adequate for that purpose. >>

cladking · May 26, 2005 3:29AM

<< I'd just like to point out that the mint does not make these nickels with the intent of getting into high-grade plastic. Coins are made for spending, and I'm sure all 80 you checked were quite adequate for that purpose. >>

This is their primary job and they've been doing it very efficiently for many years.

After the big coin shortage there was little attention paid to the mint or their pro-
ducts by either the general population or by coin collectors. At first the greatest
concern was just cranking out the debased coinage in the greatest possible quan-
tity to ease the coin shortage but as years went by they became more interested
producing the coins as cheaply as possible.

Now there are lots of people including much of the general public who are paying
attention to the mint, the designs, and the quality. While they still have to make
coins for circulation they also have to satisfy their customers who are raising their
expectations. The mint has made big improvements in the last several years in the
quality but there is great room for improvement yet. Look at some of the European
and other world coins. In many cases the coins all look like mint set coins and the
mint set coins look like our old proofs. Swiss coins are some of the best.

martif · May 26, 2005 4:37AM

Thanks for all of your input on this subject. I of course realize that these are regular business strike coins, but my point was that even business strikes in many coins are really very beautiful and grade well. These nickels as a series though, look like they are not going to have many MS66 and above. I guess that will increase the price of those that do grade that high though.

Can someone please explain to me what a 'Speared' buffalo is as noted below?

19Lyds · May 26, 2005 5:49AM

<< Can someone please explain to me what a 'Speared' buffalo is as noted below? >>

Try this Link then do an advanced search for "Speared Bison".

Our very own Neptune has the distinct honor of getting "Discoverer" status for this one.

RobJ · May 26, 2005 6:00AM

<< 

<< HI
I HAVE sent over 45 of them to pcgs so far,and thay are graded them very lose, done got two ms66 ,but all these was speared bison too.
littlejohn >>

Have u REC'd them back, yet? I'm wondering how PCGS labeled them? ie.... "Speared" or what? Thanks

>>

I have 2 from PCGS. 1 MS64 and 1 MS 65. I thought they might be 1 step better but happy with this. These are from 2 Mint rolls
RJ

littlejohn · May 26, 2005 9:08AM

hi
i have some back. and 16 at pcgs now.
littlejohn

littlejohn · May 26, 2005 9:10AM

Have u REC'd them back, yet? I'm wondering how PCGS labeled them? ie.... "Speared" or what? Thanks >>

-----------------------
there labeled speared bison.

--
there a ms66 on ebay now.pop. 3/0

INXS · May 26, 2005 9:16AM

If you buy a proof set there is no reason that every coin in that set should not be at least a PR69DCAM. Anything less is poor quality and/or workmanship.

carl · May 26, 2005 9:31AM

As has been already noted that the USMint is in buisness to make money for spending in such things as toll gates, vending machines, coin changers, etc. Only a small part is for collectors so why should they check coins for quality when they'll look a mess in no time anyway. When they are making millions or billions of coins they probably don't really care that much for collectors problems of a few scratches, rubs, bumps, etc.
I asked at my local bank for a few rolls and got them and spent them in change and only kept a few for my Jefferson Book.

martif · May 26, 2005 6:43PM

Great!! Now I know what 'Speared' is. I didn't come across any of those, I would have noticed that. I am wondering if I should just go ahead and open some more rolls?

How long did ANACS take to return your coins? They have a bunch of mine for weeks now.

Artist · May 26, 2005 8:08PM

For what it's worth, I strongly suspect that by the time these coins make it down the coarse metal shoots that connect the dies where they are struck to the bins where they are first collected, they are already mostly 64's. That's just the nature of a design that has lots of wide, raised, exposed portions. Do some of you really think that Mint quality control checks to ensure that plenty of MS68s are being shipped out with every bundle?

Boom · May 26, 2005 9:12PM

Even if you DO find one that looks "good" in hand and decent with a 5x, take a digital photo of it and see how bad it looks to the camera's eye. They just do not photograph very well....at least the traditional Obverse doesn't but the Buffalo side does.

Recall how public outcry was responsible for changing the original Buffalo 5c design back in 1913 to the T-2 design that stayed till the end of the run in 1938 and again in 1916 when people really came undone and were offended by the bare breasted Ms Liberty on the new quarter design....MAJOR difference here is, complain all you want, fact of the matter is, the Mint's all but finished with this particular design and moving on to the next design in the series so "doing" something about it NOW is simply an exercise in futility.

What this assures is that if and when someone actually does find a spectacular, mark- free business strike that grades 67 or higher, it will then be worth "Moon Money!" When we, as collectors, turn into "speculators" on any short run Program, inevitably we will win on some and lose on others.

I'm afraid that all of us who rolled the dice on this one, overall, have lost unless we get lucky and make at least a couple high end pieces or are fortunate enough to find one of the so called "varieties." Just the cold, hard truth.

RobJ · May 26, 2005 10:43PM

<< For what it's worth, I strongly suspect that by the time these coins make it down the coarse metal shoots that connect the dies where they are struck to the bins where they are first collected, they are already mostly 64's. That's just the nature of a design that has lots of wide, raised, exposed portions. Do some of you really think that Mint quality control checks to ensure that plenty of MS68s are being shipped out with every bundle? >>

I disagree...I wish I could send a photo of the 64 and 65 PCGS graded. What I found except for 4 coins I sent in were nothing close to MS64. They were terrible and I think PCGS is hard on grading these
RJ

cladking · May 26, 2005 11:46PM

<< As has been already noted that the USMint is in buisness to make money for spending in such things as toll gates, vending machines, coin changers, etc. Only a small part is for collectors so why should they check coins for quality when they'll look a mess in no time anyway. When they are making millions or billions of coins they probably don't really care that much for collectors problems of a few scratches, rubs, bumps, etc.
I asked at my local bank for a few rolls and got them and spent them in change and only kept a few for my Jefferson Book. >>

Great. I see it now. In a few years we can just contract all of our coin
production to the Peking mint.

There have to be some sort of standards or they'd never have to change
dies at all. In the distant past people got used to accepting coins that
were almost completely worn away so why not start with coins that have
indistinct images to start with. It's unlikely there'd be much counterfeiting
of clad quarters and people would quickly get used to not being certain
which state is depicted. Hell, set the dies so they barely even kiss the plan-
chets and they'll never wear out. Then more cost could be saved by handling
the coins with payloaders and hoppers. A few would get bent but if these
coins are riddled right before they go out then these could be removed at
far lower total cost.

There are many reasons to strive for quality in all things but with coins there
are even more. Our icons and deepest beliefs are represented on these coins.
They are not mere ambassadors to the rest of the world they are ambassadors
to the rest of time. Do we want to be remembered for our weaknesses and
problems or for our strenghts? Do we want to say "In God We rust" to the
rest of time or perhaps something a little different?

cladking · May 27, 2005 12:04AM

I should also point out that with any given production system it will
generally produce the best quality when producing at full capacity.

Usually little things like nicks and light damage are easily rectified
just by identifying where in the process it occurs and tweeking the
system.

There is rarely anyone who looks at system wide problems other
than higher ups who have never been on the production floor. The
mint has made large improvements in the last few years and there
is still room for much more.

Artist · May 27, 2005 2:51AM

<<...and again in 1916 when people really came undone and were offended by the bare breasted Ms Liberty on the new quarter design.>>

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, according to Breen who sites several period sources as references, the reason for this change had less to with public outcry and more to do with the political climate of the time.

flaminio · May 27, 2005 3:10AM

<< How long did ANACS take to return your coins? They have a bunch of mine for weeks now. >>

Did you submit using economy? If so, be prepared to wait many more weeks for your coins to return. Three-Four months is not atypical.

You can call them and have your order changed to 5 Day Express. It will cost a little more, but you'll have your coins back in about a week and a half.

flaminio · May 27, 2005 3:11AM

<< If you buy a proof set there is no reason that every coin in that set should not be at least a PR69DCAM. Anything less is poor quality and/or workmanship. >>

I agree, but the OP was talking about business strikes coming from 500 coin bags. Banged around as such, I would say that MS62-64 would be typical and acceptable.

The New Bison Nickels

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