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So, who here thinks or "knows" counterfeit coins are illegal to own? Why? Why not?
coinguy1
Posts: 13,485 ✭
This subject has arisen in a number of different threads (including one today) over the course of the past several months.
For purposes of this thread, I'm not asking about whether they are illegal to sell (whether described as counterfeit or not), but whether they are illegal to own.
Please provide any support/documentation for your opinion/position. Thanks and let the debate/games begin...
For purposes of this thread, I'm not asking about whether they are illegal to sell (whether described as counterfeit or not), but whether they are illegal to own.
Please provide any support/documentation for your opinion/position. Thanks and let the debate/games begin...
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actually enforced except when there is fraud or attempted fraud. A copy made back
before the hobby protection act was passed is still not illegal to own but a contemporary
counterfeit 1927 quarter is just as illlegal to own as it was in 1927. It doesn't matter
if the quality is too poor to fool a collector or not. There has never been an "amnesty"
for old fakes. It's also illegal to make counterfeits and by extension to own them but
where there is no fraud and little likelyhood to ever be fraud the authorities (secret ser-
vice) will look the other way.
This won't apply to counterfeit current money also. They have very thin skins for any-
thing that looks like a clad quarter and would likely seek out even individual specimens
were any to appear in circulation. A MN seed company mad such an item in about 1977
and the secret service made them chase dpown everyone they had sent out. It cost
them thousands of dollars and there are very few of these extant. If any showed up
there's a good chance the trench coats would also. I've never seen one and the company
believes only several dozen are believed unaccounted for, with the bulk believed to have
been thrown in the garbage.
Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 15 years, or both.
Key words are fraudulent intent. I always thought they were illegal to own and subject to confiscation. Apparently not, according to this, as long as they are being collected with no fraudulent intent.
Joe
Two areas of U.S. law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18,
Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S.
Code, Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of
U.S. and world coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973
(Title 15, Chapter 48, Sections 2101 through 2106 of the
U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments) deals with counterfeits of
ancient coins. Nothing in the above statutes says that simple
possession of counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal.
According to Armen R. Vartian, the most visible numismatic
legal expert in the U.S., a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World
legal columnist, and author of the book A Legal Guide to
Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles, "The statutes do not
criminalize the mere possession of counterfeit money."
Though the courts have addressed peripheral issues, no court
in the U.S. has ever ruled on the legality of owning a counterfeit
of a collectible coin. For there to be "judicial clarity," a court
ruling has to address this issue specifically, according to
Vartian.
POSSESSING COUNTERFEIT COINS
Reid Goldsborough writes: "There are differing opinions about
the the legalities of owning counterfeit coins in the United States
as no U.S. statute specifically addresses this issue and no U.S.
court has specifically addressed it either.
Two areas of U.S. law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18,
Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S.
Code, Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of
U.S. and world coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973
(Title 15, Chapter 48, Sections 2101 through 2106 of the
U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments) deals with counterfeits of
ancient coins. Nothing in the above statutes says that simple
possession of counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal.
According to Armen R. Vartian, the most visible numismatic
legal expert in the U.S., a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World
legal columnist, and author of the book A Legal Guide to
Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles, "The statutes do not
criminalize the mere possession of counterfeit money."
Though the courts have addressed peripheral issues, no court
in the U.S. has ever ruled on the legality of owning a counterfeit
of a collectible coin. For there to be "judicial clarity," a court
ruling has to address this issue specifically, according to
Vartian.
Mark
Assuming it's illegal to have counterfeits of legal tender--and I'm not sure it's illegal to just have it--then it's reasonable that it's illegal to have counterfeit Morgans or other coins because they are still legal tender.
i have a question is their a market for old counterfeit coins and where does one access it on the net
a little off subject sorry
<< <i>Hi
i have a question is their a market for old counterfeit coins and where does one access it on the net
a little off subject sorry >>
There are collectors of counterfeits but few of them advertise or actively
pursue them. I've seen even new counterfeite sell for $100 and some
contemporary counterfeits of old coins will sell for more than the original.
There's a lot of interest in the Henning nickels and some ancients.
I doubt that there is a site dedicated to them.
Many people assemble "collections" of "valuable" counterfeits to fool potential
thieves who would stumble on them. It is from this that many counterfeit
collectors are born.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Possession of couterfeit bills may be another issue entirely, but I wouldn't know.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Wayneme---If you are looking to buy counterfeit coins, check out the raw gold on e-bay. Unfortunately they are mostly being sold as genuine coins. >>
Yes, or a seated liberty dollar from that guy in China.
A few years ago, when the ANA Mid-Winter Convention was held in Cincinnati, I was unable to attend, but a few of my fellow JRCS members were going to have a display of counterfeit Bust coins. As I have a 'large' collection of counterfeit Bust half dimes (large by relative terms, anyway), I was asked to send a few examples along to put on display. I expressed my apprehension, as it is one thing to discretely own such things, but it is quite another to put them on public display, set up flashing lights to call attention to them, and in essence rub the Treasury Departments nose in it. I was convinced to send a few along, and I did receive them back after the show. Apparently the Treasury Department has a 'don't ask - don't tell' policy about such things, and will look the other way if a collector has an example or two of a contemporary counterfeit coin, particularly of an obsolete denomination. The spirit of the law differs from the letter of the law. It's not like I would attempt to pass one of them off to an unsuspecting merchant for five cents worth of goods or services. But try to pass a counterfeit example of a current coin, and you can expect a visit from Uncle Sam.
Good man!
Suppose a person inherits a coin collection from a relative, a collection which contains a counterfeit coin, but the seller doesn't know it's a counterfeit. This guy goes into a coin shop, asks the dealer what the collection is worth. The collector gives him a price and he agrees to sell to the dealer. After the dealer takes possession of the collection, he finds out through whatever means that he has purchased a counterfeit coin. Can the seller be charged with anything? Is he guilty of a crime? Certainly he didn't intend to defraud anybody. He just wanted to know what the dealer would pay him for the collection. He considered it a fair offer, and they transacted business.
Wouldn't this simply be case of Caveat Emptor?
<< <i>There are collectors of counterfeits but few of them advertise or actively
pursue them. I've seen even new counterfeite sell for $100 and some
contemporary counterfeits of old coins will sell for more than the original.
There's a lot of interest in the Henning nickels and some ancients.
I doubt that there is a site dedicated to them. >>
There are several sites dedicated to counterfeit coins, and there is even a specialty club located in Canada for collectors of counterfeits that pulishes a quarterly newsletter.
Now if I'm out spending fake quarters I stamped in my basement, or tearing around my neighborhod at 120 MPH, I would certainly expect Johnny Law to have an issue with my behavior, and rightly so.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
purposes were legal to own. I just don't remember the source. However, doesn't the ANA
have a large counterfit collection? If it was illegal to possess, why wouldn't the Treasury Dept
seize the many museum collections out there?
K S
<< <i>perfectly legal to own, as i do. >>
Karl - if you had bought slabs instead of coins, you never would have gotten stuck with those counterfeits
<< <i>From the Secret Service's web site:
Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 15 years, or both.
Key words are fraudulent intent. I always thought they were illegal to own and subject to confiscation. Apparently not, according to this, as long as they are being collected with no fraudulent intent. >>
Sounds similar to the law on defacing which allows 'squished pennies', love tokens, counter-stamps, etc, etc.
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