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So, who here thinks or "knows" counterfeit coins are illegal to own? Why? Why not?

This subject has arisen in a number of different threads (including one today) over the course of the past several months.

For purposes of this thread, I'm not asking about whether they are illegal to sell (whether described as counterfeit or not), but whether they are illegal to own.

Please provide any support/documentation for your opinion/position. Thanks and let the debate/games begin...image

Comments

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,306 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They are illegal but it really depends a lot on various factors and the laws are rarely
    actually enforced except when there is fraud or attempted fraud. A copy made back
    before the hobby protection act was passed is still not illegal to own but a contemporary
    counterfeit 1927 quarter is just as illlegal to own as it was in 1927. It doesn't matter
    if the quality is too poor to fool a collector or not. There has never been an "amnesty"
    for old fakes. It's also illegal to make counterfeits and by extension to own them but
    where there is no fraud and little likelyhood to ever be fraud the authorities (secret ser-
    vice) will look the other way.

    This won't apply to counterfeit current money also. They have very thin skins for any-
    thing that looks like a clad quarter and would likely seek out even individual specimens
    were any to appear in circulation. A MN seed company mad such an item in about 1977
    and the secret service made them chase dpown everyone they had sent out. It cost
    them thousands of dollars and there are very few of these extant. If any showed up
    there's a good chance the trench coats would also. I've never seen one and the company
    believes only several dozen are believed unaccounted for, with the bulk believed to have
    been thrown in the garbage.
    Tempus fugit.
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
    From the Secret Service's web site:

    Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 15 years, or both.

    Key words are fraudulent intent. I always thought they were illegal to own and subject to confiscation. Apparently not, according to this, as long as they are being collected with no fraudulent intent.
  • PhillyJoePhillyJoe Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭✭
    I think a fine line exists between "copy" and "counterfeit". Nothing from stopping companies from selling copies of Morgans "richly bathed in 1 mil gleaming silver" as long as it is stamped "copy" on the coin. I would say it is legal to own copies or counterfeits, but if you try to use them as currency, I would think you've crossed the line, same as selling a "1889 Proof 69 Morgan" that was minted last week.

    Joe
    The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition. image
  • This is from E Sylum last year

    Two areas of U.S. law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18,
    Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S.
    Code, Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of
    U.S. and world coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973
    (Title 15, Chapter 48, Sections 2101 through 2106 of the
    U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments) deals with counterfeits of
    ancient coins. Nothing in the above statutes says that simple
    possession of counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal.
    According to Armen R. Vartian, the most visible numismatic
    legal expert in the U.S., a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World
    legal columnist, and author of the book A Legal Guide to
    Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles, "The statutes do not
    criminalize the mere possession of counterfeit money."

    Though the courts have addressed peripheral issues, no court
    in the U.S. has ever ruled on the legality of owning a counterfeit
    of a collectible coin. For there to be "judicial clarity," a court
    ruling has to address this issue specifically, according to
    Vartian.
  • MarkMark Posts: 3,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is something from the E-Sylum of Aprol 4, 2004:

    POSSESSING COUNTERFEIT COINS

    Reid Goldsborough writes: "There are differing opinions about
    the the legalities of owning counterfeit coins in the United States
    as no U.S. statute specifically addresses this issue and no U.S.
    court has specifically addressed it either.

    Two areas of U.S. law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18,
    Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S.
    Code, Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of
    U.S. and world coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973
    (Title 15, Chapter 48, Sections 2101 through 2106 of the
    U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments) deals with counterfeits of
    ancient coins. Nothing in the above statutes says that simple
    possession of counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal.
    According to Armen R. Vartian, the most visible numismatic
    legal expert in the U.S., a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World
    legal columnist, and author of the book A Legal Guide to
    Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles, "The statutes do not
    criminalize the mere possession of counterfeit money."

    Though the courts have addressed peripheral issues, no court
    in the U.S. has ever ruled on the legality of owning a counterfeit
    of a collectible coin. For there to be "judicial clarity," a court
    ruling has to address this issue specifically, according to
    Vartian.


    Mark
    Mark


  • clw54clw54 Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭
    I'll make an attempt at this, without reading the other replies or knowing the law.

    Assuming it's illegal to have counterfeits of legal tender--and I'm not sure it's illegal to just have it--then it's reasonable that it's illegal to have counterfeit Morgans or other coins because they are still legal tender.
  • Hi
    i have a question is their a market for old counterfeit coins and where does one access it on the net
    a little off subject sorry
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,306 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Hi
    i have a question is their a market for old counterfeit coins and where does one access it on the net
    a little off subject sorry >>



    There are collectors of counterfeits but few of them advertise or actively
    pursue them. I've seen even new counterfeite sell for $100 and some
    contemporary counterfeits of old coins will sell for more than the original.

    There's a lot of interest in the Henning nickels and some ancients.

    I doubt that there is a site dedicated to them.


    Many people assemble "collections" of "valuable" counterfeits to fool potential
    thieves who would stumble on them. It is from this that many counterfeit
    collectors are born.
    Tempus fugit.
  • NewmismatistNewmismatist Posts: 1,802 ✭✭
    Without doing the necessary legal research to give a "correct" answer, I think you can "own" them - you can't spend (or try to spend) counterfeit coins.
    Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.

    “It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
    Newmismatist
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,759 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't have a source to quote, but I believe it's legal to own counterfeit coins as long as you don't try to pass them off as real.

    Possession of couterfeit bills may be another issue entirely, but I wouldn't know.

    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wayneme---If you are looking to buy counterfeit coins, check out the raw gold on e-bay. Unfortunately they are mostly being sold as genuine coins.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • clw54clw54 Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Wayneme---If you are looking to buy counterfeit coins, check out the raw gold on e-bay. Unfortunately they are mostly being sold as genuine coins. >>


    Yes, or a seated liberty dollar from that guy in China.
  • stev32kstev32k Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭
    You can pick up counterfeit Trade Dollars every day on ebay. Some are advertised as counterfeit and some as the real thing, but a large proportion of all uncertified Trade Dollars are counterfeit.
    Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
  • carlcarl Posts: 2,054
    Having laws are important and if owning a counterfeit anything is illigal then that law should be inforced. YEAH RIGHT. Did anyone notice the FBI warning at the start of every movie about not copying them and gee nobody does that. Around here we have tons of laws about guns and again, YEAH RIGHT. Even kids in grade school have them. And if you did have a countefeit coin or bill at home, is the rest of your family going to turn you in? Are there cameras in your home connected to the police stations? Using counterfeit money is wrong but just having it in a collection is normal and unless you go stick it in the face of some law inforcement agency and say I dare you to do something about it, no one will really know. Now if you want to see counterfeit stuff, just go to any flea market and notice things like batteries. Dinocell, Duroncell and a few more that all are copper tops and by the time you leave you will no longer know how to spell anything correctly again. I've seen counterfeit coins at coin shows for sale and were actually stated as that. So if I bought one and took it home, would I be breaking the law because I now own it?
    Carl
  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm certainly not a lawyer, so I cannot give a definitive answer to the question, but my understanding has always been that, strictly speaking, according to the letter of the law, it is illegal to own, buy or sell a counterfeit coin. However, the Treasury Department has better things to do than to harass innocent collectors who simply want an example of a counterfeit coin in their collection for educational purposes. I can admit that I have several contemporary counterfeits of Bust and Seated coins, chielfy half dimes.

    A few years ago, when the ANA Mid-Winter Convention was held in Cincinnati, I was unable to attend, but a few of my fellow JRCS members were going to have a display of counterfeit Bust coins. As I have a 'large' collection of counterfeit Bust half dimes (large by relative terms, anyway), I was asked to send a few examples along to put on display. I expressed my apprehension, as it is one thing to discretely own such things, but it is quite another to put them on public display, set up flashing lights to call attention to them, and in essence rub the Treasury Departments nose in it. I was convinced to send a few along, and I did receive them back after the show. Apparently the Treasury Department has a 'don't ask - don't tell' policy about such things, and will look the other way if a collector has an example or two of a contemporary counterfeit coin, particularly of an obsolete denomination. The spirit of the law differs from the letter of the law. It's not like I would attempt to pass one of them off to an unsuspecting merchant for five cents worth of goods or services. But try to pass a counterfeit example of a current coin, and you can expect a visit from Uncle Sam.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • sumnomsumnom Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭
    I'll make an attempt at this, without reading the other replies or knowing the law.


    Good man!
  • Let's take this one step further...

    Suppose a person inherits a coin collection from a relative, a collection which contains a counterfeit coin, but the seller doesn't know it's a counterfeit. This guy goes into a coin shop, asks the dealer what the collection is worth. The collector gives him a price and he agrees to sell to the dealer. After the dealer takes possession of the collection, he finds out through whatever means that he has purchased a counterfeit coin. Can the seller be charged with anything? Is he guilty of a crime? Certainly he didn't intend to defraud anybody. He just wanted to know what the dealer would pay him for the collection. He considered it a fair offer, and they transacted business.

    Wouldn't this simply be case of Caveat Emptor?
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    The feds don't give a rip about coin collectors so why waste time worrying about the legality of counterfeits?image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • Conder101Conder101 Posts: 10,536


    << <i>There are collectors of counterfeits but few of them advertise or actively
    pursue them. I've seen even new counterfeite sell for $100 and some
    contemporary counterfeits of old coins will sell for more than the original.

    There's a lot of interest in the Henning nickels and some ancients.

    I doubt that there is a site dedicated to them. >>


    There are several sites dedicated to counterfeit coins, and there is even a specialty club located in Canada for collectors of counterfeits that pulishes a quarterly newsletter.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think counterfeit coins probably are technically illegal to own, just as it is technically illegal to drive 26 miles an hour on my residential street. But if I keep my contemporary counterfeit bust half in a flip in my safe deposit box, I worry about the secret service knocking at my door about exactly as much as I worry about getting stopped for speeding on the way home, that is to say, not at all.

    Now if I'm out spending fake quarters I stamped in my basement, or tearing around my neighborhod at 120 MPH, I would certainly expect Johnny Law to have an issue with my behavior, and rightly so.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • I think I remember reading something saying that counterfits that were used for educational
    purposes were legal to own. I just don't remember the source. However, doesn't the ANA
    have a large counterfit collection? If it was illegal to possess, why wouldn't the Treasury Dept
    seize the many museum collections out there?
    Robert Getty - Lifetime project to complete the finest collection of 1872 dated coins.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    perfectly legal to own, as i do.

    K S
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭


    << <i>perfectly legal to own, as i do. >>


    Karl - if you had bought slabs instead of coins, you never would have gotten stuck with those counterfeits image


  • << <i>From the Secret Service's web site:

    Possession of counterfeit United States obligations with fraudulent intent is a violation of Title 18, Section 472 of the United States Code and is punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 15 years, or both.

    Key words are fraudulent intent. I always thought they were illegal to own and subject to confiscation. Apparently not, according to this, as long as they are being collected with no fraudulent intent. >>



    Sounds similar to the law on defacing which allows 'squished pennies', love tokens, counter-stamps, etc, etc.
    Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...

    CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com

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