A Question Regarding the Counterfeit Morgan in the PCGS Slab.

braddick · April 26, 2005 12:39PM

In a PCGS holder, if the Morgan descirbed in this thread, were real it would be worth an easy grand, if not more. It's a counterfeit, determined by PCGS, so who knows?

Now, what would happen if Greg's Morgan had been cherried out of a Dealer's stock and purchased for $25.? Should PCGS return to the owner the $25. he is really out (plus, of course, his grading fee) or the full retail value of the coin?

kieferscoins · April 26, 2005 12:41PM

<< <i>PCGS will reimburse the owner for the current market value of the coin(s) under the terms of the PCGS Grading Guarantee. Anyone who wants to take advantage of the PCGS Grading Guarantee for their micro O Morgans should contact PCGS customer service. >>

Current market value is not what he paid for it if it was only $25. Current market value would be the grand you quoted in this scenario.

Cameron Kiefer

nwcs · April 26, 2005 12:46PM

The market value.

braddick · April 26, 2005 12:53PM

This is an excercise in logic and reasoning along with ethics and the law.
My scenerio is exactly that, a scenerio. With that clearified, I'd like your opinion Cameron. If the owner paid $25. for the "$1,000.00 variety" is PCGS on the hook for what he paid, upon discovery it is a counterfeit, or the full market value?

Edited to add: Do collectors who return coins to PCGS under PCGS's warranty include receipts of value/cost like the Post Office insists on?

braddick · April 26, 2005 12:57PM

skerke · April 27, 2005 12:53AM

If they have a guarantee that matches their PCGS price to 'remedy' a mis-graded coin. Well then, despite the cost to the buyer, PCGS needs to honor their aggreement. Another spin o nthe scenarios is, what if the buyer paid a premium say $1500 to get the coin? According to you, PCGS should have to pay what the buyer paid, not what the market value is. Beyond that, PCGS is not a mom/pop shop that just get's buy, they are in the business of identifying and grading coins and get paid well to do it. CLTV stock is doing fine and it's much better they admit their discovered issue, resolve the matter, and educate tehir consumers as they have. So far I see them handling the situation well. now if this is the quiet before the storm, more ommissions, hidnig problems etc, well then.

What if all of them MS69dcam quarters flying around in PCGS holders needed to come back for some reason. Now they have apublic relations and financial repercussions.

My two cents.

TonedPeaceNut · April 27, 2005 1:19AM

<< <i>is PCGS on the hook for what he paid, upon discovery it is a counterfeit, or the full market value? >>

Legally speaking, the damage caused to the individual who owns the counterfiet., ie., either purchase price of the coin, or full market value determined by recent auction trends is what PCGS is going to have to pay. The price the owner cherried the coin for is immaterial. You will not and should not be punished under the warranty for having knowledge and training beyond that of others. If you could have sold the coin for $1000 and you cherried it for $25 -- you're out $975.00. If you purchase the coin through a legitimate auction for $1500, then those are your damages.

However, for all the auctions that are have now been completed after PCGS made their announcement if I were PCGS I would becareful in taking those into account. Obviously if the price of this coin flies through the roof because of its novelty, lets say a $1500 example is now selling for $2500 because of PCGS's announcement, then I would say fair market value remains at $1500 because thats what it was immediately prior to the announcement and any bump in price afterwards has no real effect on MV.

TPN

greghansen · April 27, 2005 2:57AM

And just to add some spice to this discussion, I will tell you the 1902-Micro O counterfeit discussed on another thread, was in fact, bought by me raw, probably for about what Braddick indicates. That coin is a little different, however, because I no longer own it. The question there is: #1, does the current owner want to part with it? I still haven't heard back from my buyer. If he does, after buying it back, I then have to decide whether I want to keep it as a curiosity or turn it in. Either way, that coin has already changed hands for $1,200 AFTER being slabbed so it is different from a coin that has been cheeried and slabbed, but not sold.

My 1900-O micro O in PCGS VF30 fits the second example. I bought it as a non variety (in fact the coin was discussed in this early Jan. 2005 thread) and then had it slabbed. I have been offered nearly $2,000 for it, but have not sold it to date. So that is a coin that more nearly addresses the query posed by Braddick, i.e. does the owner who only has about a hundred bucks into the coin get reimbursed his actual cost or does he get the benefit of full market value as of the date the error is noted.

Steve27 · April 27, 2005 3:11AM

As I recall Pat, didn't you buy a dog of an MS65 Iowa commemorative at a low price, which you then submitted to PCGS for grade review? They then paid you more than you paid for it and returned the original coin, sans slab, to you?

ccrdragon · April 27, 2005 3:11AM

PCGS made good on a guarantee for me and paid me the difference of the value of the coin in the old holder vs the new holder - and the check they sent me covered everything I had in the coin, and I still had a coin worth what I paid on the coin (figure that one out!), so it does not matter what you have in the coin, the guarantee that they stick with is the fair market value (or difference).

braddick · April 27, 2005 4:20AM

<< <i>As I recall Pat, didn't you buy a dog of an MS65 Iowa commemorative at a low price, which you then submitted to PCGS for grade review? They then paid you more than you paid for it and returned the original coin, sans slab, to you? >>

Good point. (I still own that coin too, it's in my Dansco among the four required for type.)

I suspected PCGS would return the cost of the coin and was pleasantly surprised to see a check for more along with the coin itself.

Will this correction on PCGS's part disapoint stockholders?

DennisH · April 27, 2005 8:02AM

It's my opinion that PCGS' decision to stop grading these three coins will make the value of the 92 coins already in PCGS holders go UP. As such, I intend to keep the ones I already have and continue to acquire others if they become available.

kieferscoins · April 27, 2005 10:02AM

<< <i> is exactly that, a scenerio. With that clearified, I'd like your opinion Cameron. If the owner paid $25. for the "$1,000.00 variety" is PCGS on the hook for what he paid, upon discovery it is a counterfeit, or the full market value? >>

My opinion of "market value" is what it would sell for and NOT what it was bought for (in this scenario the guy cherrypicked the coin). I think nearly everyone would agree.

Cameron Kiefer

A Question Regarding the Counterfeit Morgan in the PCGS Slab.

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