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The backs of 1950s Topps cards: Were we THAT insensitive?
jrdolan
Posts: 2,549 ✭✭
I was just sorting out some '50s Topps for submission and I noticed something odd and troubling. On the reverse where they did the player bios, black players were often represented by cartoons of white players. Even some of the best players in the history of the game -- Banks, Clemente, J-Robby, Mays, Aaron. This isn't the first time I'd seen this, of course, but seeing this many all at once, and letting it hit me really for the first time ...
What kind of racially insensitive dumbasses WERE we in the '50s??
What kind of racially insensitive dumbasses WERE we in the '50s??
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Thank goodness times have changed and the statement "All men are created equal" now has meaning.
Don't be fooled. Unless your in a major city welcomed diversity really doesn't seem to be very embraced even today.
GG
<< <i>some of the 38 Goudey cartoons have black caracatures and slang talk that is very un-PC. When I took a road trip to Savannah Georgia a few years ago, I noticed that the workers at all the restaurants were black, and NEVER did we see a black person handling any money anytime during the 3 days we were there. It is still rampant in the south. there are areas in Indiana where blacks still aren't permitted after dark to be outside. I can't remember the town, but it was just north of Charlstown indiana >>
As someone who lives in southern Indiana, the above line is really a myth. I'm sure there are racists in some towns around here, but to think there are places where African Americans are not allowed after dark without fear of a lynch mob is absurd. Unless it's okay for me to say there are places in the Bronx I'm not allowed after dark. I mean, come on.
I'm not trying to start a racist war, but I've spent time in over 30 states in this great country and would hate to see anyone get the wrong idea about the state of Indiana. There are parts of every city and state that have racists, and that is truly unfortunate, but southern Indiana is hardly the setting for what Goudy is trying to portray.
Thank goodness times have changed and the statement "All men are created equal" now has meaning.
-----
Not to start a political debate, but the American Civil War was not fought over slavery. The South attempted to secede from the Union of states and become their own country. They elected their own president and stopped paying taxes to the Union. Only after the war was in full swing did Lincoln emancipate the slaves (some of whom had black owners) in hope of weakening the South's war effort.
The travesty is that after the war in the period of Reconstruction, the government turned their backs on the former slaves and allowed the southern politicos and landowners to take back power and land through forceful means and for the next 100 years
former slaves were not given equal rights ,abused , slaughtered, segregated and treated as second class citizens.
Shame on us.
Putting together a set of 61 Fleer Basketball PSA 7 or better.
Trade references: T,Raf12,Coach Vinny,Iceman,McDee2,Lantz,JSA
Southern indiana is all fine and in harmony just like cincinnati huh? I went to interview for a graduate degree progam at malcolm X college in chicago last year. Went to the bathroom to take a crap and looked up on the wall. "Non-natives go home". I was the only white guy there that day, and aside from a few middle eastern students, who do you think the non-native was? I'm not saying there are lynch mobs ready to chase people out of town in southern indiana, but racism is everywhere and I personally think rural areas are the most prevelant. I spent 18 years in New Albany Indiana just across from Louisville KY, you? It is a fine place to live, but to dismiss racial bias there is foolish, as it is in most rural areas.
Me personally I don't care. I have friends of all backgrounds and am not paranoid of driving through cabrini green/gold coast to get into chicago or whatever. Heck I went to "city life" 90 streets into south chicago to hear some jazz last year with a friend. Got harassed of course as the only white kids in the place, but a "regular" actually kicked the guy out that kept screwing with us. Again, we didn't care but we were targets the other way around. In short your truely kidding yourself if you really think that with america being primarily rural and redneck (by land allocation, excluding major cities) that the "good ol boys" no longer have racial issues anymore, only 40 short years after the civil rights movement. Unfortunately it will take a while longer, but we are getting there. I just wish they would get rid of the "ethnic" check boxes. the races are melting together and will continue to do so until you can't really tell whats going on. That will be a good day indeed.
here is a funny picture for ya... yes, indiana 2002. the KKK mack daddy slurpin on some roast and taters in a double wide i'm sure!!! HAHAHAHA
http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/ku-klux-klan/KKK.dinner.htm
Unfair stereotypes die hard, but speaking of Louisville... Anybody going to the Kentucky Derby in a couple weeks?!?! Its a killer time, and the bars stay open til 6am. Its the only day of the year they can stay open past 4am. The gang and I tested it last year and yup!! Its 6am!!
GG
Its hard to read the print, but check the top right corner of card #278. Obvious baseball card relic from the segregated south and picking cotton...
GG
I can email someone a pic of my #278 if anyone wants to see a good pic of it. I'm pic loading/hosting stoopid...
Goudey,
I thought I wrote there is still racism in every town and state? Not that southern Indiana is all fine and in harmony. I was just trying to make the point that southern Indiana is not any worse than any other place I've been. If you think it's the worst place, I guess that's fine. But don't put words in my mouth, please.
And I don't know how bad that crap was you had to take, but I'm confused as how your story of what happened in Chicago, the third largest city in this country, applies to southern Indiana. It just proves my point that racism is still prevelant everywhere, and that is truly a shame. My post to your original thread was only to say that Southern Indiana is not any worse than any where else. Lord knows if the KKK comes out after dark around here, that would be news to me. I'm sure there's a piece of white trash around here somewhere with a KKK poster in his garage, but just wanted to say that would be the exception.
Forgive me for trying to defend Indiana, Goudey, but that is truly an unfair stereotype.
Examples are numerous across the planet (no need to beat up the American South)
Examples would include the Indian caste sytem, provinicial exclusion in China, aborigianl Australia just to name a few.
A closer example would be immigration across the Mexican border. What would drive groups of Americans to protest against securing our borders?
If the people crossing the borders looked like you. So simple. Dont let your guilt fool you into believing this was ever a white persons issue only.
Loves me some shiny!
The war WAS about slavery - reread your history books. The South, mostly farming, was built around slavery and the South didn't want to give that up. In the "broad sense" the war was fought about two conflicting cultures. One culture, the South, wanted to be independent from the other culture. Slavery was a big part of this culture. But the big misinterpretation of the Civil War is that the North wasn't so "noble" that they went to war because of wanting to free the slaves. The North would have never went to war over that. The North went to war because the North was attacked. If Lee hadn't been so "stupid" and marched into Pennsylvania frightening the hell out of the North, the North would have never had the resolve to continue the war and there would have been negotiations for two countries. Slavery would have eventually been abolished anyway. There was a growing movement in the South to abolish slavery. The two countries I believe would have eventually merged anyway - sort of the way Scotland and England merged but this merger would have happened much sooner in America - there was a lot more in common than any differences.
The Civil War was such a tragic waste. I believe in the long run that civil rights would have happened far sooner if that war hadn't happened. But it did happen and here we are and we still have a ways to go yet...but it is getting better. The Indians (Native Americans) today are suffering far worse of any race in America. Yes there is too much poverty in inner cities, but poverty on Indian reservations is even more horrendous.
<< <i>topps kept it up through the 80's with its "Topps Big" series.. below is the Ron Gant cartoon from that set..
yeah that is not exactly what he looks like.
Then my relative wouldn't have had to burn Atlanta to the Sea in his march. I still have to be careful abou showing my license in Atlanta. I get "Sherman, we have a sign with your name on it every mile down here"
<< <i>The Indians (Native Americans) today are suffering far worse of any race in America. Yes there is too much poverty in inner cities, but poverty on Indian reservations is even more horrendous. >>
correct..
Your not ready my posts. I'm speaking of MY experiences where I have been. I lived in southern Indiana for 18 years and I have seen plenty of bigotry and racism. Burning crosses, racially motivated vandalism, KKK posters in an old trailer behind my grandmothers house, etc... I stated it is indeed everywhere however. I gave my examples in chicago as a flip flop on the example in southern Indiana. I also have lived on the border of Mexico in Laredo TX. While I would say 90% of all the (mostly illegal) pts I had contact with in the hospital I worked with were 100% appreciative and great to talk to (through translators or younger family members) it was NOT a surprise however to get a pt that simply hated americans. "americanos, americanos..." then the mock spitting on the floor. I was there for 9 months, and irate mexicans were NOT all that uncommon. funny thing is, although I never saw a single black person in the hospital, fellow workers were allmost paranoid of them. I told them they were crazy, and why do they think that if there are essentially none in the area? They didn't really know why but they had issues with it. Probably watching too much Cops on TV... But then again they were also freaked out about the chupacabras monster too. Some mexican legend about a monster that sucks blood. Direct translation is "goat sucker" or something like that. google it if you need to know more, or don't believe me.
My entire point is... Unfortunately racism has been evident every place I've lived in different degrees. It is in our history and in our future. I feel it is absolutely improving with time, but it will take more time. I do not have a beef with southern Indiana, it was merely my personal example based on my childhood living there, as my example in chicago and laredo.
GG
<< <i>
The war WAS about slavery - reread your history books. If Lee hadn't been so "stupid" and marched into Pennsylvania frightening the hell out of the North, the North would have never had the resolve to continue the war and there would have been negotiations for two countries. >>
This statement is ludicrous. First of all, if Robert E. Lee had taken up leadership of the Army of the Potomac as he was offered, instead of defending is home of Virginia, the Union would have run over the Confederacy ALOT sooner than they did thanks to the jacka$$$$ wuss bag generals the Union had until Grant did his thing. Robert E. Lee was far from stupid. This is a man who saw that the South could not support a war that dragged on forever because of the Norths industrial might and population. He went for the jugular at a time that his troops felt they could not be beat and we all should get on our knees and kiss the earth that this all time great tactician failed through no fault of his own.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
GG
<< <i>The war WAS about slavery - reread your history books. >>
If by this you mean that I should reread the history books I read in high school to gain unbiased insight into controversial times in American history - then thank you for my biggest laugh of the day. (I'm sorry, second biggest - it can't top the statement that there are places in Indiana where blacks are not allowed out after dark.)
IMHO, the reasons for the Civil War are numerous and, in a sense, circular. Of course slavery played a large part in creating the divide between North and South and it is unlikely that there would ever have been a Civil War if there had never been slavery in America. So in that sense, it is reasonable to say that slavery caused the Civil War.
But, once that divide started growing, it quickly became too wide to bridge through accomodations or negotiations. Not for lack of trying: the North (Lincoln), offered the South a permanent Constitutional guarantee of slavery in return for their return to the Union; the South (Confederate Congress) offered the North the abolition of slavery in return for their right to remain separate. So, once we reached the point where the South had already seceded, the right to secede or not had surpassed the importance of the slavery issue for both the North and the South. In the same light, it is often not understood that there were slave states in the Union as well as the Confederacy, and that the Emancipation Proclamation freed only the slaves in the Confederacy, NOT the ones in the Union. So, in that sense, it is reasonable to say that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery.
But we would all do well to remember that there is more wisdom in a single drop of rain than there is in all the books of the world. Wait, not rain. Super-concentrated brain juice.
yeah i could see the cartoon with the character in a white cap and gown with a black face.
<< <i>
yeah i could see the cartoon with the character in a white cap and gown with a black face. >>
Spoken like an obnoxious ignorant fool.
TROLL
now go back and crawl under your rock
southern indiana is NO different i'm sure than many other rural white redneck areas in the country.
Fortunately nearly ALL the racial incidences I've heard from people talking largely come from "older" people that grew up with the segregated world. fortunately most of the younger generations particularly those in diverse areas really don't care and actually embrace it. If you sit and talk to some older african americans about their childhood and how things were just 40-50 years ago, it is simply astonishing. It is really mind blowing how far we have come, but it will take time to filter through the rural brainwashed families with no exposure to diversity.
GG
Steve
Come on now - Nobody's saying Robert E. Lee was stupid - you know that wasn't how it was meant. The Southern army marching into Pennsylvania is what was stupid. Lee even admitted his moves at Gettysburg were "wrong." My opinion is the tactics were "stupid." My feeling is that Lee's own implication of him being "wrong" at Gettysburg has far deeper meaning - his way of saying that invading Pennsylvania and the South being too aggressive was not the way to conduct a war if it wanted to achieve the objective. The objective was to have a seperate country, not to give resolve to the North. In war, you do not want to give resolve to a superior enemy. This is basic Sun Tzu. The North being an industrious region, as you correctly noted, was far superior to the South in strength. The North fought that war with "one hand tied behind its back" and still defeated the South. Repeat...the South invading Pennsylvania was stupid - it doesn't have to be explained why Lee did it - everyone knows why he did it. Hopefully you now understand all this.
As for the comments about the Civil War not being about slavery. It's amazing how different people interpret different facts of history. I guess some people probably think a whale is a big fish.
<< <i>Alright, I need to clarify this again.
southern indiana is NO different i'm sure than many other rural white redneck areas in the country.
Fortunately nearly ALL the racial incidences I've heard from people talking largely come from "older" people that grew up with the segregated world. fortunately most of the younger generations particularly those in diverse areas really don't care and actually embrace it. If you sit and talk to some older african americans about their childhood and how things were just 40-50 years ago, it is simply astonishing. It is really mind blowing how far we have come, but it will take time to filter through the rural brainwashed families with no exposure to diversity.
GG >>
All right, enough is enough. It was funny the first couple of times, in an "I'm laughing at you, not with you" sort of way, but I guess even us benighted rural Southerners have our limits.
Try this one out: "Southern Dallas is NO different than many other colored cities in the country." Or how about, "Crown Heights is NO different than many other Hymietowns in the country."
In case you missed my point, you arrogant holier-than-thou bigot, "redneck" is not a term which polite society uses to describe anyone, let alone every person from an entire "area". Apparently you have spent a little too much time congratulating yourself on your exposure to diversity, and not enough time figuring out that it is not OK to spout prejudiced opinions about any group of people, even rural white people.
As a wise board member said, "Racist people come in all shapes, sizes, colors and ages". You may want to check the mirror to see a variety with which you are obviously unfamiliar.
<< <i>Goudy? Racist people come in all shapes, sizes, colors and ages. it is not restricted to white rural older americans. With that said I can assure anyone and everyone that I certaintly am no racist and my above comment was made to show how ridiculous I thought this whole idea of how cartoons were drawn in the 50's and then shown up to and including 1988. Could I be wrong? and the people at topps were racist? of course I can be. however I highly doubt it. In my mind the artist was just drawing what he/she felt was a generic person. My comment about wearing a white cap and gown was made in that vain.
Steve >>
And obnoxious people come with pitching icons with a yellow background that hide behind message boards because they are too scared to say half the things here to someone's face, because they know they would get the beating of their life. lose pitcher, go crawl back behind that yellow stripe on your back.
<< <i><<< Robert E. Lee was far from stupid. >>>
Repeat...the South invading Pennsylvania was stupid - it doesn't have to be explained why Lee did it - everyone knows why he did it. Hopefully you now understand all this.
>>
you can't be serious
"everyone knows why Lee invaded PA" ???? my goodness
dude, you are the classic Monday Morning quaterback 140 years late!
YOU may call this move by Lee "stupid" which is naive at best. Although Lee admitted this was the wrong move in hindsight it was the ONLY move that he could have taken to fight off the inevitable. So, hopefully YOU may learn to look into Robert E. Lee and his motives a bit more than the obvious crap you have been taught.
peace
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
2. Lee's offensive victories can be summed up in one name: Stonewall;
3. If Stonewall were at Gettysburg, Lee would have won that battle;
4. What difference does it make?
<< <i>1. Lee invaded Pennsylvania to take the pressure off of Vickburg, which was the key to the Confederacy;
2. Lee's offensive victories can be summed up in one name: Stonewall;
3. If Stonewall were at Gettysburg, Lee would have won that battle;
4. What difference does it make? >>
1. Lee invaded PA with the idea of Washington DC as his prize
2. Do not forget James Longstreet , Jeb Stuart, etc who had a great influence on the Souths early success also
3. Stonewall at Gettysburg would not MAKE ONE DIFFERENCE without the ol high ground which is the only reason the Union won ....
4. What difference does it make? Wow you are clueless
5. I am so happy the Army of the Potomac prevailed
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Maybe the question should be: What kind of insensitive dumbasses are we TODAY.
<< <i>This started out as a discussion of the racist (by modern standards) aspect of baseball cards in the '50s. There is some interesting history, as some of us delve even deeper in time to the Civil War. But also there is a huge amount of hostility between certain posters. One person even started a new thread for the sole purpose of insulting a member with whom he was arguing in this thread.
Maybe the question should be: What kind of insensitive dumbasses are we TODAY. >>
why? because we engage in active debate about issues that shaped our nation? You started this thread, does not mean you have to act as a self proclaimed mediator. How about expanding on your own thoughts that started this thread? What did YOU think might come of this? A censored watch what you say good will discussion? Not if you know any better ......
Guys, don't EVER give up your passionate beliefs of our nations past history. I mean that to all in this thread!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>This started out as a discussion of the racist (by modern standards) aspect of baseball cards in the '50s. There is some interesting history, as some of us delve even deeper in time to the Civil War. But also there is a huge amount of hostility between certain posters. One person even started a new thread for the sole purpose of insulting a member with whom he was arguing in this thread.
Maybe the question should be: What kind of insensitive dumbasses are we TODAY. >>
Perhaps we are still quite insensitive. And I've never argued I'm not a dumbass from time to time. But after someone takes the time to talk about how "brave" they are for attending a concert with a large population of African Americans, then how they "survived" a trip to the bathroom in the inner city, and then have the nerve to imply every one in my area is a "rural white redneck", how "sensitive" am I suppose to be?
The fact I keep replying to this post may prove I'm the biggest dumbass of all. But I don't know how many different ways you can be called a biggot without being a little offended. Just wanted the record to show that not all of us in southern indiana are "redneck racists".
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Stop! In the name of love...
before you break my heart...
think it oh-oh-oh-overrrr... .
<< <i>why? because we engage in active debate about issues that shaped our nation? You started this thread, does not mean you have to act as a self proclaimed mediator. How about expanding on your own thoughts that started this thread? What did YOU think might come of this? >>
What did I hope would come of it? An active debate about issues that shaped our nation.
I didn't foresee the other stuff. But you're right, it's not my thread to control just because I started it. America is all about free speech. If I don't like the flaming and the p*ssing contest that followed -- or the "passion" if you prefer -- I can just stop reading. No problem.
I did enjoy the non-flaming part of the discussion. Those who enjoyed the flames more than the actual topic ought to check out the spinoff thread as well. It's a hoot, or a train wreck, or a Jerry Springer episode, or something ...
<< <i>Maybe we should all hug and make up? Talk about 2006 Heritage. >>
Holy crap!!!
The 57 design! I hope it kicks ass!!!
This will attract a lot of the vintage guys who also follow baseball - a chance at a set with their current players, RC's etc.
See you guys next spring!
mike
Thanks and goodbye !
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
did that issue (57) have cartoons on the back?
<< <i>Maybe we should all hug and make up? Talk about 2006 Heritage. >>
did that issue (57) have cartoons on the back?
if they do, lets just hope they dont have light/dark variations.. or should we?
I'm pretty happy with this. I bought the thing raw for about $50. I sorta like this set, but I can only really afford to built one of the pre-war sets, and I've kinda settled in on the T-205 set as my pre-war (Stone, God bless him, says that we all need a pre-war. I think he's right). I just like that set better than the T-201s. I think they're nicer looking. So, I'll probably sell this T-201. Also, based on advice from Board members (whose advice I truly value), I bought this:
I'm trying to get PSA to re-slab this correctly, but they haven't responded.
Compared to the fanstastic cards I see posted here, I know these aren't much, but I like them. I'm going to build a Banks set and a Billy Williams set. I'm going to put together a Sosa set, too (do you see a pattern here?). I'm doing a '61 and a '63 set. I'm going to work on a '53 Topps set as well, but I'm too embarrassed to say why I'm working on that year. Anyway, it's fun, even though I can't afford really high quality stuff. I'll keep trying though. My kid graduates from college this Saturday. I'm really proud of her--she's one of only 3 Biology majors from Pepperdine this year, if you can believe it. Her degree is Magna cum Laude. She's an unbelievable kid, and I'm just so proud that I could explode. She gets her smarts and (thank God) her looks from her mother. I've been really lucky. Anyway, now that tuition and her car payments are done, maybe I can spend a little bit more on baseball cards. My baby is going to apply to medical school. If she gets in, maybe she can send a few extra gs over to her old man to pick up some nice Banks RCs. Who knows? Oh well, that's all for now.