1796-1805 half dimes- underrated?
rhedden
Posts: 6,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
We all know 1801 and 1802 half dollars are tough to find, and several board members have been actively searching for them for quite some time. However, how many of you actually own an 1801 or 1802 half dime ? If you have one, post it. The 1802 half dime is a major rarity, obviously, but I think the 1801 half dime is one of the most underrated bust coins out there. How often do you see a nice 1801 half dime offered for sale? Several other half dimes from that era are also underrated- 1796/5, 1797 13 stars, 1803 small 8, and 1805 come to mind, for example. I think these coins are overlooked for the simple reason that they are small. Personally, I always go for rarity above all other things, so I don't care that they are tiny. Would love to discuss this further with people who have been collecting since the 1970's and have a good feel for the availability of these little coins.
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I would have no trouble, imagining that all else being equal, smaller coins like half dimes and dimes would have lower demand than larger denominations, and that would be reflected in their price (almost reasonable for the supply instead of to-the-moon).
<< <i>Consider this: in all the years that PCGS has been in business, the have graded a total of 5 pieces of the 1803 small 8 half dime. 5 pieces in all grades! Yet this coin only trades for a slight premium over "type." That is a sure sign that the series is being overlooked by collectors. If it were a large cent, it would cost $10,000 in Fr-2 with that kind of pop. >>
Okay, let me rephrase: I can easily believe certain varieties are grossly undervalued based on published values (assuming you could get one at close to those prices), because few people collect these by date and variety. As far as *type* goes, I can't imagine any pre-1807 American coinage being undervalued.
Very underated, but because of the scarcity, no one can collect them. That is why they are valued the way they are. Not enough for type collectors, much less date collectors.
Do you have any low/mid grade available? I need at least one for my type set.
Tom
<< <i>Consider this: in all the years that PCGS has been in business, the have graded a total of 5 pieces of the 1803 small 8 half dime. 5 pieces in all grades! Yet this coin only trades for a slight premium over "type." That is a sure sign that the series is being overlooked by collectors. If it were a large cent, it would cost $10,000 in Fr-2 with that kind of pop. >>
Comparing different coin types for price vs. pop numbers is like comparing PCGS and NTC coins with the same grade on the plastic. You can't do it. Price depends on demand, not pop numbers. The classic example is the 09-S VDB. It's not rare at all, but look at the price it commands. Why? Because there are a lot of Lincoln collectors out there. Obviously, not many collect half dimes. Same is true of 3 cent pieces. Low pops and low prices, relatively.
A half dime isn't worth a nickel anymore.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Maybe a wannabe promoter will get a hold of them and change the fundamentals. Hahaha.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
There aren't enough of them to even attempt to "promote" and furthermore, each one is unique, not nearly "widget-like" enough to trade like MS common date Morgans (or even bust dollars, for that matter) But, of course, that was exactly your point, wasn't it Tom
yes, they're underappreciated for how really rare they are, but as others have noted, there is such a thing as being TOO rare for there to be much of a market.
btw, if anyone has a problem free Good or VG pre-1805 half dime, I'm in the market. How does 10% back of "bid" sound?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Maybe a wannabe promoter will get a hold of them and change the fundamentals. Hahaha.
There aren't enough of them to even attempt to "promote" and furthermore, each one is unique, not nearly "widget-like" enough to trade like MS common date Morgans (or even bust dollars, for that matter) But, of course, that was exactly your point, wasn't it Tom
Easy enough to raise the bids every week Baily.
Tom
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I agree with you about the underrated nature of early half dimes - and bust, and seated too! The 1801 half dime is underrated. Yet, I feel that the 1805 half dime is particularly underrated. In my half dime journey, finding a NICE 1805 half dime is a very tough undertaking. For example, I have found that nice, original eye appealing examples of lower grade 1801 half dimes are easier to find than similar 1805 half dimes, which are often severely problem plagued at the lower grade levels.
At the other end of the spectrum, it is nearly impossible to find any 1805 half dime in XF or AU (I've only seen one called AU but it wasn't) and I've only seen two true certified XF's (one ngc and one pcgs) - and this after many years of collecting. Even nice original 1805 VF's are nearly impossible to locate.
Nice looking 1801 half dimes, though unquestionably rare, appear to be more available than nice looking 1805's. For example, dealer JJ Teaparty had a gorgeous example of the 1801 half dime about a year ago. Dealer Harry Laibstain also had a nice example (or two) recently as I recall. Indeed, every 1801 half dime that I have seen thoughout the years (and I've seen more of them through the years than the 1805) were all "nice looking" relatively speaking. The opposite has been the case with the 1805 half dime with very few of them looking really nice and many of them looking "not nice" even at the upper end of xf and au. Furthermore, the 1805 half dime has the advantage of being the last year of issue for early half dimes which adds somewhat to it's appeal (on a collector level at least). After 1805, half dimes would not reappear again until 1829 - so the 1805 has a lingering memory for a lonely half dime enthusiast. A nice looking example of the 1805 half dime is much rarer than many might be aware and accordingly is underrated in my book.
You said; "...Several other half dimes from that era are also underrated- 1796/5, 1797 13 stars, 1803 small 8, and 1805 come to mind, for example..."
The 1797 "13 stars" is much rarer than the 1797 "15" stars and "16" stars. I've only seen a very few of the "13 stars" in my journey. The 1797 "15" and "16" star varieties seem to be available often enough. There are also many terrific underrated rarities among Seated Half Dimes too.
I recently had the good fortune to snare an AU58 1803 Lg 8 half dime for about "bid" via a local dealer. It was the first early half dime I've ever owned. AFter owning one of these for a while I came to appreciate them much more....small size and all.
roadrunner
Very good info,THANKs guys.
Brian
For those of you who think that the early half dimes are too rare to collect (very funny), I'd like you to know that I heartily disagree. Perhaps I should just dump my early date half dimes onto a dealer at 50% back of Bid and start collecting something more marketable, like 1881-S dollars and generic gold?
Those of you who only collect "big" coins like Morgans and Bust Halves/dollars might be surprised to learn how many forum members are collecting half dimes; they are really gaining a strong following. I'd be willing to bet that at least a few other forum members besides me collect the early ones by date.
1797 16 stars PCGS FR02 pop 1/41
1803 small 8 PCGS AG03 (and a very PQ coin at that on the obv)
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
Here’s my 1801. I’ll post others as time permits. I don’t own an 1802 because I can’t afford it. I have tracked down two that were called AU, and both were priced at $100K. I wish I could have pulled the trigger!
The 1801 is a very scarce coin, especially in any decent grade. I bought this one raw back in the 1980s. It’s currently in a PCGS EF-45 holder. The base grade is really AU, but the obverse die is broken in many places, which caused the coin to lose detail. This one is listed as LM-2 and is rated R-4. It’s a darn tough R-4.
This is the second 1801 half dime that I have owned. I had a VF at one time which I sold when I found this piece.
Valentine’s V-2 was really a die state of his V-1. There is a really a second variety, but Valentine probably never saw it. It’s currently an R-7.
Sorry to be burst your bubble, but I’ve seen more 1801 half dollars than I have 1801 half dimes, and I look for the half dimes all the time. Ditto for the 1796 and 1805 half dimes.
I'll post more coins when I have more time, probably next week.
You're not bursting my bubble... I think I see 20 or more 1801 half dollars offered for sale for every 1801 half dime. It took roughly 24 hours for someone to even post a picture of an 1801 half dime (it's a beauty, by the way). I also have an 1801 in fairly high grade, and it looks like your coin might look if I bent and straightened it a few times. Oh well, better than not having one, I guess.
By comparison, last week there was a "post your 1796 quarter" thread, and I believe 10 forum members posted pics!
These coins are always weakly struck on the reverse. I've seen two die rotation variations of this coin. Both are from the same die pair. My piece is weakly struck upder the word "OF" in the legend. On others I've seen the weakness more toward 12 o'clock. The weakness in both cases is due to the end of the bust on the obverse, which is the highest point on the die. There was just not enough enough metal there to fill the dies.
The current estimate is that there are about 125, 1805 half dimes known in all grdes. They range from damaged or Poor to AU. A counterfeit has cropped up of this coin, so the word to the wise is "be careful." I have the clipping from Coin World in my scrapbook when the counterfeit showed up. I see if I can get a picture of it.
Yes, it is very true that studying any series (especially half dimes) is the surest way to gain knowledge over time. By looking at lots and lots of coins, your eye just gets better and better and more discriminating. I'm happy to hear that you already have an 1805 half dime because nice original examples are rare - especially in xf and above. Can you post an image of your example? I'd love to see it. Thanks rhedden.
The Price collection of early half dimes is very impressive, complete by die marriage and in high grade.
K S
<< <i>overlooked??? underrated??? i don't think so - just try& buy 1!
K S >>
These days the operative word is just try an FIND one in a collectors' grade like VF or EF with no problems. Most of what you will find, if you find anything at all, will be raw coins that have been whizzed, AT'd or repaired, slabbed circulated coins that have been whizzed, AT'd or repaired, or slabbed Mint State coins that require the average collector to take out a second mortgage on their home to purchase them.
K S
About a year ago and a half ago, I spotted a 1796 half dime in a PCGS AU-55 holder on eBay. The minimum was high so I did not bid, but I told the seller that I would look at the coin personally at the Baltimore show if it did not sell. It didn't sell, and I had a chance to see the coin in person.
The good news was that the coin was well struck and had full AU detail. The bad news was that it had been polished and appeared to be AT. I won't have bought the piece in any case because the one on my collection is an uncleaned VF, but it has two teeth marks on it. BUT the price was a "gulp and pay" MS-60+ type number.
Early half dimes are a bear to buy. You have got to pay big bucks for them that usually exceed what it says in the price guides, and quite often they are damaged, repaired or ATd, EVEN in the holders.