"DNC" Due to Questionable Color/Toning"

tekprod · April 23, 2005 6:53AM

Please offer your opinion, artificial, questionable, or looks "OK" to you:

TUMUSS · April 23, 2005 6:55AM

Must have been recolored

Would need bigger pics...do you have one of the reverse?

CarlWohlforth · April 23, 2005 6:56AM

It looks like we could use a bigger picture. We could also use one of the reverse. If those colors are accurate it may be a bit pinker than I would expect...

airplanenut · April 23, 2005 6:56AM

Looks to be on the pinkish side... who slabbed it originally?

tlhoy · April 23, 2005 6:57AM

Welcome to the forum.

tekprod · April 23, 2005 6:59AM

Yes, here is the reverse. I am just learning about artificial toning and would appreciate any expertise as to these photos: THANKS!

tekprod · April 23, 2005 7:02AM

tlhoy · April 23, 2005 7:10AM

Do you have larger pictures?

Myqqy · April 23, 2005 7:13AM

What holder were you crossing it from?

tekprod · April 23, 2005 7:16AM

Glenn, this is about as large as I can get for now. The wear seems to be mint state under 10x, but I am concerned with the grading service and seller, as far as the color/toning...the main reason for the DNC. The seller suggests that the coins would likely grade, cracked out, but made no guarantees. It looks beautiful in person, but I am not experianced enoug to know an artificially toned Indian from a very nice original, versus just cleaned.

tekprod · April 23, 2005 7:18AM

Myqqy, it is NNC.

pharmer · April 23, 2005 7:23AM

DNC by pcgs? What was the NNC grade? Not sure why cracking out will change pcgs's opinion. If you aren't in a hurry, you can probably find a piece without these issues.

tlhoy · April 23, 2005 7:24AM

I agree with airplanenut. To me the obverse color is way off.

tekprod · April 23, 2005 7:45AM

Thanks for the welcome guys. The reverse is not really representative. The obverse is a very fair depiction of the color, may be about 90% as bright. However, what about the luster? CAn they articificially add luster, separating out the color discussion?

RotatedRainbows · April 23, 2005 8:27AM

NNC??? I beleive that stands for NO NEVER CROSS Is NNC a real grading service?

WaterSport · April 23, 2005 8:48AM

It is simply to darn nice looking for 97 year old cent..

WS

tekprod · April 23, 2005 11:11AM

THe Seller tells me that many PCGS/NGC/... third party graded coins have been cleaned at one time or another...but the difference between cleaning and artificial toning is the question. I am trying to decide if I should keep this one or not...?

CarlWohlforth · April 23, 2005 12:42PM

So you bought this coin, sent it to PCGS and got a DNC? Now you are wondering if you should return it? It must have taken time to send it to PCGS. If you are allowed to return it and you want a coin in a PCGS holder then you should return it. Even if it didn't DNC due to questionable color there is always the issue of grade and if it has other problems like cleaning.

One can AT a coin without damaging the luster. Or the luster may be reduced but still exist. If the coin was cleaned but not artificially toned it still wouldn't make it into a PCGS holder. Sure some coins sneak by but most don't. If you can't tell the difference but trust PCGS you can buy coins already in PCGS slabs. If you trust these boards you can vet the coin here before you buy it. Personally I can't say much from those photos as they are too small and don't have enough detail...

Shamika · April 23, 2005 12:51PM

The reverse looks pretty good, but the obverse looks too light.

tekprod · April 23, 2005 1:57PM

Here's a better/larger shot of the obverse & reverse....let me know what you think...

airplanenut · April 23, 2005 2:08PM

With the new obverse, the lustre absolutely shouldn't go into the feathers, stop, and continue above that... the die flows don't go that way.

As for NNC, sounds about as good as raw on eBay to me, and you'll find few (ok, about zero) here who support buying raw on eBay...

tekprod · April 23, 2005 2:18PM

<< <i>With the new obverse, the lustre absolutely shouldn't go into the feathers, stop, and continue above that... the die flows don't go that way. >>

Airplanenut, could you please explain the lustre stop and start. and the die flows...I'm a little new with this. ALSo, could have been the lighting of my shot...so here's another alternate. Thanks!

tekprod · April 23, 2005 2:44PM

<< <i>DNC by pcgs? What was the NNC grade? Not sure why cracking out will change pcgs's opinion. If you aren't in a hurry, you can probably find a piece without these issues.

>>

Pharmer, the NNC grade is MS66RD...

Elcontador · April 23, 2005 7:44PM

I never buy a coin based on an image. I've seen all sorts of problems not appear on an image due to various reasons. A RD IHC has bright orange cartwheel luster on both the obverse and reverse which is even and unbroken. Cleaned IHCs have more of a pinkish hue rather than the bright red. Altered coins will have uneven luster.

I'd suggest taking your coin to a major show, and comparing it to some slabbed PCGS MS 65 RD IHCs. You should be able to notice differences between your coin and those to which you compare it. If you still have questions, I'd suggest going to an IHC specialist at the show (like Rick Snow) when he is not busy, and show it to him.

tekprod · April 24, 2005 12:44AM

Thank you for your thoughts. Actually, it is a DNC that PCGS has already looked at and labeled it "questionable color/toning". I have to send it back soon for a refund, but wanted to get the members of this board to glance at it before I put it in the box. I ask here because some have suggested that PCGS is biased against other third party graders, NNC in this case, and would look for any reason not to grade the coin, even at a very low minimum grade...versus if I cracked it out and sent it in raw.

The coin itself looks beautiful, and the Seller sells ALOT of these coins looking just like this. But, I believe it to be rare that a buyer actually decided to spend the $ to send it to PCGS for a potential crossover. I also have a 1869 & 1871 that look very similar, but the 69 has some die problems.

segoja · April 24, 2005 1:10AM

As long as you like the coin, and it's not overpriced, keep it.

If you question the color, send it back.

It's really about your personal tastes and the absolute price.

BTW the front looks like it's been messed with to me, but I'm not a big copper guy!

tekprod · April 24, 2005 10:00AM

Seeking help from an IHC specialist...I would value your comments on the photos below..Thank you!

pharmer · April 24, 2005 10:18AM

Uh, not to put too fine a point on it, you have been getting expert advice. Not mine, I was just curious about the present grade, and I learned a lot by the opinions expressed on this coin.

tekprod · April 24, 2005 1:01PM

Thanks Pharmer, and thanks again for your welcome as well. I have learned alot, but, as I've learned, I have also found out that someone who actually specialized in IHC's, and "knows copper", would likely have a more definitive response on the toning. While I have appreciated all of the comments given so far, ElContador appears to have given the most poignant advice. Just looking for another opinion, that's all...now that the new photos that weren't originally available are posted.

relayer · April 24, 2005 1:52PM

artificial AND questionable

"DNC" Due to Questionable Color/Toning"

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&quot;DNC&quot; Due to Questionable Color/Toning&quot;

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"DNC" Due to Questionable Color/Toning"