Question about $100 Platinum eagles
JRocco
Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
Does anyone here have any opinions on whether platinum eagles will ever have a market other than their bullion value? Will they, in say 20 years, be valued on their rarity or will they be forever tied mainly to their bullion value? I am referring to mainly $100 eagles. Thanks in advance.
P.S.- I love this reverse
P.S.- I love this reverse
Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
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Comments
Longer term, I think so. It is eventually going to be discovered that these are very low mintage and strikingly beautiful coins. Once that happens, the prices will move upward as people start to build sets.
I do hope that I am able to afford some of these lovelies before then...
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Mintages of the proof platinum $100:
1997 = 16,000
1998 = 26,047
1999 = 12,351
2000 = <10,000
2001 = around 11,000
I believe that 2002 was around 10,000, 2003 was around 9,000.
Hoot
There are better ways to make money if that's your primary concern.
The wholesaler that I used for bullion hedges his position on the comex and when he has enough to ship, almost all go to actual ..... users.
So it's highly likely that them new Chevys got Eagles an Nobles in the catalytic converters.
Gold is still the most LIQUID of all the precious metals. Probably always will be. Universal appeal in ANY country in the world. Can't say same for silver or any of the other "precious" metals.
Hoot
Just caught this thread,
IMHO as a "collector" on $100 MS :
The Bullion,
I agree with flaminio, dpoole and shamika (probably better alternate investment scenarios), of course its all speculation of the supply/demand dynamics in 20 years. Probably will have to wait through the "diffusion" cycle to find out: early adopters/visionaries, chasm/time, early majority/pragmatists, late majority/conservatves and laggards/skeptics.
For the Bullion/MS coins future supply side, topstuf has some great information here and IMHO probably accounts for the vast majority of any reduction in physical coin count. Additionally my research indicates, potentially, some of these coins have ended up in various manufacturing processes, and to a less extent made into jewlery etc. (pendants and watches, with coin intact).
Additionally, the $100 are handled by the main bullion dealers (search on "platinum" for some recent comments on subject).
Point is, I'm not sure anyone really knows how many of these bulion coins are left, or in what conditon they are in.
The Proofs,
The Proofs have a little different supply story as they are protected to some degree in the US Mint package and mostly in the hands of current collectors.
On future demand, remember, the $100 Plat is the highest denomination "coin" ever minted at the US Mint.
Of course I buy $100's, so I am putting my hard $ on the "go bet" as I try to put on my "collector/investor" hat.
BBpM
<< <i>Additionally my research indicates many of these coins have ended up as catalyst in the methamphetamine process >>
-This is false.
<< <i>and to a less extent made into jewlery etc. >>
-I seriously doubt jewelry makers are melting platinum american eagles for their trade with the stiff premium these coins bring. There are cheaper sources for platinum as a raw material.
I think they will have a collector market. However, the problem is the price spread between Bid and Ask. My observation is that the Risk/Reward relationship is unfavorable because of the spread.
Some clarification,
Perhaps we have differences in our information on your first point, thats OK.
On the second point, I was referring to actual jewelry, pendants, even watches in the smaller denominations from bullion coin not proof coin, however; you bring up a nice point, raw bullion sells for spot price the world over and I suppose someone that bought stock in 1997 (about $400/oz?) might sell direct to a jewelry maker today.
Of course, sticking to the thread topic, every individual must make their own determinations here on supply and demand of these coins.
For me, I'm not a dealer and do not want to promote the coins this early in the product collection cycle (and potentially drive my costs up).
That said, I like the Topic, obviously.
And if anyone can shed more light on the industrial or non industrial uses of this Platinum that might reduce coin count or coin condition, I'm all ears.
Signing off the boards for awhile,
Thanks
BBpM
They will appeal, and slightly go up, to a very limited collect group. Reason is that they ARE the highest "priced" minted coin and have the LOWEST mintages.
So, that keeps out the majority of collectors (the high price). Look at JustHavingFun....he paid over a million for the coin he wanted from his boyhood. Many others collect like that. Not many kids are collecting/thinking of Platinum coins.
Also, since the mintages are so low, few will get into them. So, there won't be a stampede for them like there are for the 1916-D, or 1942/1942 Mercs, the 1932 Washingtons, etc.
Look how many merc collectors there CAN be and then they want/need the 1916-D among a couple of other keys. But, for the $100 platinums, that won't happen.
So, I think they look cool, I think it is great to collect them if you want/can, but I just don't see the large upside in numismatics with them (bullion based upside is different and not what I am referencing (I have no idea on how platinum will fare in the longrun as bullion)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
">"http://www.cashcrate.com/5663377"
Hoot
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Box of 20
I think there are a couple of reasons why the SAE's have a much better chance of appreciating (percentage wise) vs. the Platinum eagles. For example:
The cost of entry for a SAE allows people to buy them as presents and give them away to people who don't know how to take care of them (or in my case, it is just a play thing: handing them out as tips, golf ball markers, giving them to kids). I've begun to see more and more SAE's "out and about" because they have a perceived rarity, but they are a very cheap way to buy precious metal, thus people are beginning to become familiar with their existence & the coins are becoming worn in the process (as people mishandle them).
For the Platinum eagles, the cost of entry is high & probably all of them are in mint state (& always will be), plus most people don't know they exist.
Enough SAE's are minted for them to circulate, and thus have their condition degrade (while leaving some high grade examples left). When silver got down to ~$4.60 USD a while back, it was tempting to spend them. (I like to spend dollar coins, the '05 sackie for example, to get them back into circulation). I've never met anyone that wouldn't take an SAE as payment (for face).
...wouldn't it be nice to see SAE's circulating?
...dreaming of sound money...
-g
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ...
and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
<< <i>The 1995 W ASE UC PF 69 goes for around $3000.00 with a mintage of around 30,000.00 but the ASE are more popular than the platinum coins. >>
Right, that's my point....not that any 1 issue has a small mintage, but that there is a larger collector base for the series. For that to happen, the majority of coins needs to be available to a large number (and be affordable).
The SAE example meets that.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3967974462&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1
A few months ago, I heard a dealer offer another dealer 62 PROOF platinum eagle at melt. I don't know the details as I didn't think too much about it. But now I wonder if I should have paid more attention.
Garbage worth less than $40
Direct answer today.
First a few thoughts on the bullion/MS:
I agree with Bochiman and AgMe and will even point out that the 4 different denominations of Plats dilutes the collector base even more...so...
Thats today, what about 20 years from now?
For the bullion coins there is what I will call a "reverse proof" finish on the coins from 1997 to 2003. IMHO it appears to mark fairly easy. In 2004, the US Mint changed the coins to what I will call a "matte" finish, and IMHO it appears to be able to absorb more punishment and has less eye appeal.
PCGS just graded/reported 55 additional coins in this weeks Pop report in $50 2001 (total mintage 12,815 coins) and here were the results: 0(MS70), 6(MS69),33(MS68),7(MS67),3(MS66) and 6(MS65).
Now, its a given with slabs and the state of collecting that more high end coins will be saved today versus say a coin 80 years ago, and I suppose that might mean that rarity might gravitate to condition rarity versus pop rarity. So basically IMHO the scale shifts a bit to the right here towards MS70 than say a 1926 Saint (PCGS Pop 14,261, Pop 0 in MS 68, Pop 3 in MS67, 333 in MS66 etc).
Topstuf makes the point that these coins do go to end uses, and every time Platinum rises more coins come back to bullion dealers and I suppose go the way of Chevys, of course some go to PCGS slabs too.
So, I suppose one must enter at ones own risk here, and IMHO focus on coins in the 1997-2003 era, be willing to wait a long time for the series to mature(not for everyone). In addition the smart $ would be to do what monsterman and wondercoin spoke of and focus on the high end 69's if you have the time and eye to find the gems there.
If one buys the gem 69's as close to melt as possible (if you like the coins and have the eye and time to find them) and at a minimum expect to hedge the US $(Platinum from 1960 to present has kept pace) then one has little down side risk, save the metal price.
For me, I collect the MS70's to mitigate the risk(unfortunately for me, like the coins, have no time to find them), and because I am a collector that wants to find the "top coin" even if its under 5X and preserve it ($10,000 bounty out for a PCGS Pop 1, MS 70 2000 $100 Plat if anyone makes one). My time horizon is about as long as trade dollars are old. I don't necessarily view these coins as the best investment, I believe money can find more competitive yields in other investment areas when considering risk/reward.
In 20 years or 50, IMHO I believe there will be a market for $100 Plats, and the high end Gems will be the best bet.
One caveat, there probably are more sealed mint boxes left in the lower denominations than the $100's, I am aware of folks who as late as 2003 bought a $10 Plat sealed mint box of 1998's and found some top coins.
I know the modern condition rarity game does not suit everyones investment choice or collecting preference.
Thanks
BBPM
I have not had the opportunity to inspect / cherrypick a lot of (5) pre-2003 $100 Plats slabbed MS69 plats this entire year. I would love to do it as you mentioned, but, the opportunity seldom presents itself. That isn't to say a sizeable hoard won't surface at any point in time.
Slightly OT - I was glancing at the mintages on the $50 MS Plats the other day. I noticed that the mintage for 1997- 2001 (5 years combined) was less than 120,000 coins - this is the 5 year combined total production and is less coins than were struck in 1998 alone for $100 MS plats. These Plat. coins have International appeal as well and I believe tend to get more scattered all over the globe as compared to some other Mint products.
Point of reference - during the same 1997-2001 (5 year) time period in which the US Mint produced roughly 120,000 total $50 MS Plat coins the mint also produced approximately 35,000,000 total MS Silver Eagles for the same 5 year period (if my math is right) as well as over 4,000,000 $50 MS Gold eagles.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin:
Excellent point on the MS $50's.
I have had some recent thoughts (myself) on going into that denomination.
A few weeks ago someone(?) made a Pop 2 1997 $50 Plat from (what appears to be) a 20 coin submission, perhaps an intact mint roll???
The point is, I am satisfied with my knowledge and understanding on the complete life cycle of a $100 coin (thats why I collect "Da Big" coin), and feel I can account for where a large portion of those early $100 mintages (1998 etc) are at, but still have some research to do on the life cycle of those $50's.
Also, PCGS has only graded (8) 1997 to 2003 $100 coins in MS 69 so far this year, so seeing (5) is nice job! IMHO.
BBpM
Having the reverse different every year makes them really nice for me. It makes it easier to justify trying to get 1 of each years coin.
I can see the high grade ms coins increase in value if enough collectors start collecting them. I assume the proof coins are all already in collectors/dealers hands and are in the same condition that they left the mint. It sounds like the ms coins are used as bullion and a lot of them have been handled and high grade ms coins may be harder to find in the future than some people think.
---------------------------------
"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
"If it don't make $"
"It don't make cents""
<< <i>$100.00 Platinum Eagles are over $1300.00 per from the Mint. Nice collectible!!!
Its too bad that the mint raised the price of the proofs by around 25% starting with the 2004 platinum proofs.
In 04 I accidentally purchased the MS set, I thought they were fake because of the matte finish and hated them. After the Coin World article stating the 04 MS has the lowest mintage I consider myself lucky to have mistakenly purchased this ugly set.
I have not purchased anymore US platinum due to the Mints huge mark up on proofs starting in 04, and I feel I am too heavily vested in them.
The ASE is more collectible because they are accessible to a wider group of collectors. Logically, shouldn’t that make the APE more desirable? A small percent of collectors can afford them, and I think this appeal to the deep pockets. Most of collecting has to do with having something others don’t or can’t have: one because most can’t affords them, and two due to the low mintages.
Aside from the intrinsic value of platinum I hope the APE will have historic US collector value being the first bullion coin with a $100 denomination. Also, the proofs are beautiful!!
Every time I look into Plat proofs I see the secondary market selling them for less than mint issue price.
No way would I buy from the mint!
I hated to see them go... but, I've really enjoyed the surround sound. I think it was a good trade, off.
David
I haven't pulled the trigger on the 2005's ... that's the problem - you get sucked into collecting a set and then hate to stop.
As to collecting them in the after market at a lower price, try finding the 2004 proofs graded or ungraded.
Dan
<< <i>I have been debating whether I should sell my set also... I gagged at last years price and this year is the same. A lot of money tied up in 15 ounces of platinum. They are gorgeous and isn't that why a lot of us collect certain coins/varieties?
I haven't pulled the trigger on the 2005's ... that's the problem - you get sucked into collecting a set and then hate to stop.
As to collecting them in the after market at a lower price, try finding the 2004 proofs graded or ungraded.
Dan >>
Dan is right sellers will point to the 2004 platinum proof mint prices and tell you to drop your pants and bend over. Last proof set I own is the 03.
1997 16,000
1998 14,203
1999 12,351
2000 12,453
2001 8,962 *
2002 9,946 *
2003 8,136
2004 6,111 **
* Final total sales figures pulled from the addenda of the US MInt's annual report for each year.
** Last weekly US Mint sales report showing the cummulative sales through the closing date of sales.
Deduct 30 days worth of returns for final number released (unknown).
Best Wishes,
Eric