Is there more coin fraud and coin scammers now than in the past?
Myqqy
Posts: 9,777 ✭
Or is it just a case of collectors being more aware of scammers with the use of the internet becoming more important for collectors? Please speculate and digress and babble however you like....
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
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If I can lump fraud and scammers together, I'd say there is less now than there was 20 years ago. But the method is somewhat different. Back then it was cleaned, altered, and outright counterfeit coins being foisted off on unknowing but sincere collectors. The general public wasn't exposed to coins like they are today through ebay and websites, so the victims were people who were genuinely interested in coins because they had to seek them out at shops and shows. Lack of authentication services left people open to getting screwed because they didn't have the wealth of resources available to know if the coins were good or not.
The quality slabbing services have put a giant dent in that problem. Today most of the scamming seems to involve ebay through selling repros as genuine (don't show that photo of the reverse with the big COPY stamp!), selling third-tier slabs while citing PCGS prices, and outright scam auctions where the seller auctions coins he doesn't own. Most of the victims aren't serious collectors (IMHO) but casual buyers who aren't connected to any club or other collectors.
I don't consider the TV coin sellers as scammers because their only offense is to charge too much. That's a shame, but I don't put that on the same level as fraud. I shake my head thinking about the amazing volume of product they can move to people who don't realize how much they could save by buying elsewhere, but they sure do know their audience.
People could absolutely benefit by using all the resources available on the Internet to learn about coins, but apparently a lot of people don't take advantage.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>Is there more coin fraud and coin scammers now than in the past?
...Or is it just a case of collectors being more aware of scammers with the use of the internet becoming more important for collectors? >>
The latter, I think. The subtle scammers are often caught by vigilant folk like you'll find on sites like this. And the not-so-subtle, blatant whacko scammers are more visible because they flock to places like eBay, where anybody can be a coin dealer.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>I want more comments!! I keep swimming through piles and piles of crap morgans on ebay >>
Probably not the answer you want to hear..... but ebay is not the whole world to Numismatics.
I believe many collectors were "Raised" so to speak from ebay. Too much junk on ebay?
Time to move on to somewhere else or somebody else that sells quality. But you gonna pay for the quality.
Jerry
You got it right.
Less scammers.
Easier to spot (more eyes collectively looking and sharing scams found).
Forgot to mention
"All looks good to me"
They vail of ebay being safe for buyers is absolutely false.
Always present - the exaggerators and overgraders.
Don't forget the sellers that get a good feedback rating by buying a few things then sell a bunch of non existant stuff.
Also the absolute criminal - account stealers and fraud dealers.
Now there is the coin photo doctors and photo stealers and coin switchers.
I've suffered from all of these maladies, yet I remain an loyal ebay buyer.
why because its a desease.
Why would you expect someone who doesn't know you and probably never do business with you again to be concerned about his / her "good name / reputation."
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I agree 100%.....
I just can not bring myself to spend more than a G on a sight unseen coin(raw and TPG)--because I view the internet as the city dump. Except --of course--when it's my turn to sell. Then it'll be rodeo dr.
to have almost all picked over, altered, whizzed, overgraded and other problem coins
in his collection. Today some beginners will be safe from all these problems though ob-
viously there are still many problem coins being sold on the market. Even the "legitimate"
coins back in the mid-'60's were things with no real chance of still being collected in the
future. There were bar nickels and various errors of the day along with varieties which
were extremely common and of little importance being sold as scarce coins.
Standards were very much different in those days, too. Collectors were not as concerned
with quality so dealers would knowingly buy problem coins at a discount and then sell them
as such or offer them for close to the regular price. Today few dealers have anywhere to
sell such material so have no interest in buying something like a roll of whizzed '50-D nickels.
Buyers of such things now are much more likely to try to be getting price.
Still, one doesn't see a lot of this. Ebay seems to be the vehicle of choice for a lot of the
shenanigans but most ebay deals appear to be above board and of mutual benefit.
Certainly there's a lot more chicanery than there was three years ago but this was highly
predictable; scammers always migrate to where the money is and more and more, the
money is in coins. It's likely to get worse before it gets better.
It's been a long time since I heard the term "bar nickel". It brings to mind BIEs, pointed 9 dimes, and filled mintmarks. All used to have a level of popularity, but now are pretty much ignored. I think I amassed a whole roll of 1960 P & D "bar" nickels out of change as a kid, ended up spending them.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Cladking - you bring up some good points too. I believe scammers peak with the market peaks. When prices show "irrational exuberance" and people try to make a quick buck, that's when more get scammed and hurt.
I have to agree with previous posters -- you can avoid nearly all of it. I don't think it even costs that much to avoid. Plastic helps, as does knowing something about the seller. You can get nice coins at fair prices from good people, from thousands of miles away. The one thing you have to let go is that dream of making the big something-for-nothing score, which seems to be a lot of what keeps people scrolling through ebay listings hour after hour after hour.
I would have to disagree on the tv coin sellers. They push pure crap that is over priced beyond market plus markup plus some extra. The one time I caught a great coin a 1942/1 Mercury it was close to twice market price plus was in a third tier grading service slab. If people want to bid coins to sky high prices let them but to sell this crap is a scam. They are presenting themselves as professional and with that comes the responsibilities of the profession.
I have found most of my collection on ebay. Granted they are the most common ones in the series but I get alot at market price. It has become harder to find great deals on ebay mostly because in the beginning most were mislisted. They were spelled wrong or in the wrong place. People using ebay have become smarter and I hope they will list the rare quality coins that we are all looking for. If you want bid on registry quality coins you have to go to auctions sites such as Heritage Coin. The ones on ebay are their mostly as advertising for their other auctions. You look to see the coin and of course I check out what else they are selling.
The preceding is only my opinion it carries no value to anyone but myself.
mikeb310
<< <i>In the past year, I've bought about 100 coins off ebay. It took me about this long to refine my goals and be a lot more selective. Overall I would say that I've had about 5 bad trades. They should have a driver training class for newbies--but the scammers will still get to a lot of people. The problem is that in the beginning you are like a lamb going to slaughter. >>
Similar deal here. After a year of dues-paying and mistake-making, primarily as a result of trusting sellers too much, I've compiled a set of inviolable rules that have ensured a success rate of about 95 percent. By "success," I mean no cleaned or otherwise problem coins, no fraud and no whackos. When I lose a gamble nowadays, it's in the form of a coin not crossing or upgraded, and thus overpaying for it a bit. It's made the whole exercise less stressful and a lot more fun.
<< <i>like a roll of whizzed '50-D nickels. >>
Nice try but there was no such thing. Almost all 50Ds are uncirculated as they were hijacked before they reached circulation.