Seller is Now "NARU'ed !! Yep another Great Ebay Seller. Just Remember, "Buyer Beware&quot

Fairlaneman · March 28, 2005 9:19AM

A coin was purchased on Ebay. Here it is. The Auction. Now before you call me completely dumb for buying a raw coin please consider the reasons for the purchase.

First a forum member knew I was looking for the date and pointed out the auction to me. Second the seller appeared to be just fine to me. Thrid a guarantee was given saying that they would stand behind the coin and that it would grade at PCGS, NGC or ANACS. Seemed like all bases were covered.

Now the good part. I emailed the seller and asked if I could return the coin because it had been cleaned and would not grade at PCGS. Then I went immediately to the Post Office and sent the coin without hearing from the seller first. The next day the seller emails me and states that they do not accept returns on Ebay Auction items. Anyway a week went by with no further contact from the seller then today I get a email saying that he had told me what the return policy was before.

Now good part number two. After exchanging Emails today the mail arrives and the coin is back in my hands, they refused the package. They would not even look at the coin to see if a mistake had been made.

These people are ANA Life Members. Should I expect to be treated like this by a ANA Life Member or is this standard ?

What do you think. Should they take the coin back ? Should I just take the loss and fade off into the Sunset ? Should I contact the ANA ?

Just in case the seller jumps in here I was polite and low keyed with my Emails untill I received the coin back today. A last Email was sent calling him a Bottom Feeding piece of Scum. Obviously I got bent.

Thank You.

Ken

LanLord · March 28, 2005 9:23AM

So who is the bottom feeding piece of scum? Might as well make sure no other bad business deals go that way.

LanLord · March 28, 2005 9:24AM

Sorry, noticed in the link in your post.

RTFM

XpipedreamR · March 28, 2005 9:28AM

<< AUCTION PURCHASERS PLEASE ALSO NOTE: Auction merchandise is NOT returnable. The exception would be in the rare case of an inaccurate representation. An auction is a contract to purchase and it is NOT an approval service. >>

<< We absolutely guarantee that any of these Mercury Dimes will grade at either PCGS, NGC or ANACS. >>

Added: Oh, wait...did it get returned by PCGS?

RYK · March 28, 2005 9:32AM

Based on what I have previously heard about The Reeded Edge and the auction description, I do not blame you for buying the coin, and I am surprised that the return was not accepted. While I would not have resorted to name calling, I understand your frustration and based on the information as presented, you seem to have been wronged.

(Have I heged my statement enough?

)

Purple73 · March 28, 2005 9:35AM

After reading the whole auction I clicked on this link and read his terms.

His Terms

Half way down the page I find this.

AUCTION PURCHASERS PLEASE ALSO NOTE: Auction merchandise is NOT returnable. The exception would be in the rare case of an inaccurate representation. An auction is a contract to purchase and it is NOT an approval service.

Further reading produced this:

We absolutely guarantee that any of these Mercury Dimes will grade at either PCGS, NGC or ANACS. Again, these are NOT problem coins, and we'll stand behind them. As is true with all of the coins we have listed on EBay this week, this is a really attractive example and a terrific value at our modest starting bid. You might want to think about using the "buy-it-now" option for this one, as coins of the caliber never seem to stick around.

What I think.

Coin is cleaned, won't grade , therefore it is misrepresented and he should stand behind his piece as he says and give a refund.

****edited......sorry Fairlane dude. I read that wrong.

ormandh · March 28, 2005 9:37AM

Considering the bastages said that it was a problem free coin, they should refund your money and pay you pain and suffering for the incident(just kidding). It seems to me that it is dealers like this give the hobby a bad name. I will definately steer clear from their auctions.

-Dan

fcloud · March 28, 2005 9:37AM

Ken,

I think it sucks. If they claim the coin would grade, and it wouldn't then they are misrepresenting the coin. I don't think there is much you can do about it. Can you contact ebay? If you paid with a credit card you can dispute the payment on the misrepresentation aspect. A call to the ANA wouldn't hurt either.

Fairlaneman · March 28, 2005 9:37AM

I did not send the coin to PCGS. I sent it directly back to the seller and told them I would buy the coin if it graded at PCGS and that I would also pay them for their time and trouble to send it in. Trust me the coin will not grade anywhere near MS64 if it will even grade. The coin is AU and cleaned. I thought they would atleast look at the coin to see if I was all wet with what I had seen.

Maybe this is where I went wrong. My thoughts were that if I took the coin out of the sellers holder I would own it.

Ken

coinguy1 · March 28, 2005 9:37AM

<< Thrid a guarantee was given saying that they would stand behind the coin and that it would grade at PCGS, NGC or ANACS >>

Email the seller and ask him if he is really going to insist that you go through the motions of seeing if PCGS will grade the coin (which you are apparently convinced PCGS will not do), or if he wants to make it easier for both of you and allow a return now, instead? You can also let him know that you will complain to the ANA if the coin is body-bagged and a return is not allowed.

However, before doing those things, I'd recommend that you get another person's opinion regarding whether the coin will in fact receive a no-grade at PCGS.

RGL · March 28, 2005 9:38AM

I would suggest the seller is obligated to the ANA Code of Ethics and its mediation procedures ...

21Walker · March 28, 2005 9:41AM

First, I would send your complete posting to ANA and see their response to what "one of their members" has done. If I had a freebie submission left, I would submit it and see the results that this schmuck is garaunteeing. I bought an 1879 S 2 weeks ago, it came in the mail one day, out to PCGS the next and now posted as MS63. Add said "I would conservativly grade this MS64 PL". When PCGS posted my coin, I immediatly email the seller and he is very receptive to anything I suggest.

By going to ANA, if this bottom feeder is not a 'Life Member', a complaint to EBAY, plus exposure on this board and anything else you can think of to alert other collectors would probrably damage his bottom line.

All things aside and from what you have posted about this seller, unless you do what I recommend above and even if you don't, I hate to say that you are the new proud owner of a Merc..........I would definately persue the ANA avenue......Rick...........Good luck

goose3 · March 28, 2005 9:41AM

How did you pay for it?

If by CC, I'd contact my CC AND also the ANA.

yet another seller NOT to do biz with.

Fairlaneman · March 28, 2005 9:49AM

Purple the seller did not call me scum. Basically his emails were very polite and I had no problems with anything but the statements made in his auction description and the refusal of the coin without even looking to see if I was the person that did not know how to grade these things.

Note to all: The Seller was Polite and Did Not do any name calling.

Ken

nankraut · March 28, 2005 9:50AM

I'm really surprised that Reedededge wouldn't refund your purchase price, given the modest value of the coin, and the resultant unfavorable publicity that may/is being generated.

Fairlaneman · March 28, 2005 9:51AM

<< 

<< Thrid a guarantee was given saying that they would stand behind the coin and that it would grade at PCGS, NGC or ANACS >>

Email the seller and ask him if he is really going to insist that you go through the motions of seeing if PCGS will grade the coin (which you are apparently convinced PCGS will not do), or if he wants to make it easier for both of you and allow a return now, instead? You can also let him know that you will complain to the ANA if the coin is body-bagged and a return is not allowed.

However, before doing those things, I'd recommend that you get another person's opinion regarding whether the coin will in fact receive a no-grade at PCGS. >>

Mark I did this before I received the coin back today after it was refused. Really, I tried like hell to work with the seller.

Ken

kranky · March 28, 2005 9:52AM

I always wondered about that type of guarantee. You have to get it bodybagged in order to take advantage of the guarantee, but you've now removed it from the original holder which, according to their terms means it's "considered SOLD".

I have no idea how that's supposed to work.

Purple73 · March 28, 2005 9:55AM

Sorry Fairlanedude, I edited my post....I just read it wrong.

<< Purple the seller did not call me scum. Basically his emails were very polite and I had no problems with anything but the statements made in his auction description and the refusal of the coin without even looking to see if I was the person that did not know how to grade these things.

Note to all: The Seller was Polite and Did Not do any name calling.

Ken >>

Fairlaneman · March 28, 2005 9:57AM

<< I always wondered about that type of guarantee. You have to get it bodybagged in order to take advantage of the guarantee, but you've now removed it from the original holder which, according to their terms means it's "considered SOLD".

I have no idea how that's supposed to work. >>

EXACTLY.... and that is why I tried to return the coin to the seller.

Ken

pharmer · March 28, 2005 10:36AM

When I read the listing the first time, I took it to mean it must get BB'd to get any relief, but he does not say what he will do if it does, just that he will stand behind it. That's not an expressed guarantee, just the suggestion of one. Why not ask him what specifically he will do if you do submit and it gets BB'd?

grip · March 28, 2005 10:39AM

If you removed the coin from it's original holder,it's considered sold,so how do you not remove the coin,
and send it in for a BB,to prove to them it was cleaned?
Al

Fairlaneman · March 28, 2005 10:44AM

Here is a quick shot of the obverse of the dime. MS 64++++ ? Looks AU to me.

and then here is another shot of the coin.

Ken

clackamas · March 28, 2005 10:45AM

This is why I do not buy coins from non PayPal sellers. I had the same deal, the guarantee, and email assurance that the coin was not cleaned, no out of holder, etc., but the guy took PayPal so I paid with PayPal. Coin came, cleaned seller refused to take it back so I charged it back at Paypal, problem solved. Not Taking PayPal is a red flag for me that they will try to screw you since you have no recourse.

JRocco · March 28, 2005 10:52AM

Sorry to hear about this Ken- Lousy situation. Leaves a poor taste in your mouth.

100proof1957 · March 28, 2005 11:10AM

second photo makes the coin look harshly cleaned !

There was indeed an implied warranty,though they could force you to get it BB'd to force redress.

100 bucks aint worth the effort to go to court.

Odd that they refused the package,obviously they were looking for it to come back,which reeks of BS to me.

Just another "Power Screwer"

majorbigtime · March 28, 2005 11:24AM

"Again, these are NOT problem coins, and we'll stand behind them."

Make 'em stand by thier word.

I've bought big ticket items from Rob, and I think this sucks.

coinbuf · March 28, 2005 11:42AM

That second pic makes it look really bad, but I'm guressing it looks more like the first in hand. Still not a 64 to my eyes but I cannot decide from the pics if its just a weak strike or AU.

Chris

Hoot · March 28, 2005 12:03PM

Beyond a doubt, Ken, they owe you your money back. First, have the coin evaluated by another numismatist/dealer, or just send it to PCGS for grading. You need to establish that your claim that it's not certifiable or not MS64 is true. Be sure that you keep in contact with the seller to notify him of your actions. Send all documentation to him via certified mail, return receipt. Their behavior is COMPLETELY contrary to what they post in their auction policies, as several people have pointed out. I would NOT hesitate to contact ANA and report them. They should get booted if this turns out like you suspect - but they'll only get their hand slapped. You should also contact eBay and report them for fraud. You should also contact the Attorney General of the state of Maryland and report them for fraud.

Hoot

windwhispersintrees · March 28, 2005 12:08PM

Obviously the seller has covered all his legal bases with his numerous disclaimers etc. He states, "We absolutely guarantee that any of these Mercury Dimes will grade at either PCGS, NGC or ANACS.." So, in other words, you need to try and be rejected by all three grading services for his guarantee to kick in, since he only guarantees that any one of those three will grade it. However, wouldn't ANACS grade it no matter what, with the designation "cleaned".....which makes his "guarantee" a worthless statement of fact?

Technically it appears he's free & clear and you have no recourse.

However, considering the low price and the ensuing ill-will, bad publicity, etc., he'd be a fool not to accept return of the coin.

I really hate ad's that begin with so much blibber-blabber and hyperbole about the market etc. The seller shouldn't need all the hype if the coin's merits can be clearly seen in a good photo(s).

CharlotteDude · March 28, 2005 12:11PM

I don't know... if the coin's been cleaned, it obviously wouldn't meet any "Gem MS-64" designation... sound's like just the kind of "inaccurate representation" they noted in their return terms.

eagle7 · March 28, 2005 12:50PM

I guess this shows just how much ANA LM really means.

eyore · March 28, 2005 1:12PM

sorry you got in the back-side. How do you prove the coin you returned is the coin they sent? what are they saying you made the switch? raw coins never good for me at ebay. always in the end buyer beware

markglicker · March 28, 2005 1:33PM

I have had reasonable luck with this dealer. I am quite suprised that he would not take the coin back. I say this reluctantly. Hit the Negative and move on.

badgrdog · March 28, 2005 1:48PM

After reading the sellers terms I believe that he did mis represent the item and his terms clearly state that is the exception to rule of no returns for Auction Items.

The auction states that the coin will grade and you believe it won't grade. May I suggest that you contact the seller and ask him about returning the coin if it doesn't grade.

Good luck

Coin Finder · March 28, 2005 1:54PM

The guy should offer to take the coin back period.

Tbig

grip · March 28, 2005 1:55PM

The coin is obviously.cleaned and scratched,no way going by the scan would
it grade AU.....I would contact ANA.
Al

mercurydimeguy · March 28, 2005 2:06PM

What fascinates me is that people try to find the best angle for a picture to make the coin look better. Had they taken a picture at the same angle you did, Ken, it would be plainly visible to the naked eye that the coin was cleaned. The irony is that the buyer will eventually get the coin and it won't look like the picture and they'll likely be disappointed.

In essence the seller over promises and under delivers -- that is typically not the path to gain happy customers. Look, everyone can make mistakes, which isn't the problem, right? It's what you do about the mistake -- and in this case that has been what really became the problem, right? When you sent the coin back, had they accepted it back with/without apologies and refunded your $$, I'm sure that would be the end of that. But they didn't and thus (right or wrong) it became the "buyer beware" problem -- not a good problem to have for eBay sellers of raw coins.

Shame -- we're talking about a $100 bucks here, right? They should've just made it right, period!

csw · March 28, 2005 2:18PM

The good news is that the coin was returned to you, thereby precluding any argument that the coins are different.

The bad news is that it appears, based on a superficial reading, technically that you're not entitled to recourse until the specificied grading services have rejected the coin.

Practical advice is to call the seller, explain the situation, and, if necessary, refer to the bad publicity generated by this thread and all the other possible sources you could incude. Worse comes to worst, you submit the coin to the services and file in small claims. A terrible alternative.

-c

LincolnCentMan · March 28, 2005 2:19PM

"We absolutely guarantee that any of these Mercury Dimes will grade at either PCGS, NGC or ANACS. Again, these are NOT problem coins, and we'll stand behind them. "

Since the grading times have speeded up, I would send the coin to PCGS via econo-route. Then when it came back in a body bag, I'd contact them again along with another request for refund. Then if refused, I'd report them to ANA. It'd be worth the $18 out of principle.

David

mozin · March 28, 2005 2:26PM

I cannot imagine that the Reeded Edge understands what they have to lose by dealing with you in such a manner.

We on this fine forum now have seen that in order for you to show this coin they sold you will not grade with any of the three top grading services you must not only remove the coin from its holder, which Reeded Edge says voids their return "privilege", but you must also submit the coin in question to all three grading services to prove none of them will grade the coin. What about ANACS net grading the coin because it is cleaned, or for whatever else reason? Oh, I forgot, even after this procedure is spelled out in their Ebay description they will not accept Ebay returns.

In your shoes I would be so upset that I would want to nail the Reeded Edge. After calming down a bit, I would contact Reeded Edge and have them look at this very reputable forum thread so they know just how their buying public perceives them and their wording on their Ebay coin sales. If they do not come around after that I would pretty much go after them any way that I could without wasting a lot more money; Ebay contacted directly and then probably a negative precisely worded, ANA for sure needs to see this forum thread.

Don't know about the rest of you folks but a company that uses such wording in their auction lots will never get a bid, or even a look, from me.

GAT · March 28, 2005 2:38PM

The Reeded Edge has been taken to task here before for their practices. Below is a link to a thread concerning their so called no reserve auctions. At one time I remember they had the company and inventory up for sale on eBay.

Reeded Edge

Wekar · March 28, 2005 2:55PM

sorry you got hosed, but thanks for posting and letting me know about another seller to NEVER buy from.

Someday I hope eBay will come up with a blocked sellers list so I don't have to handle that all manually.

Deadhorse · March 28, 2005 3:10PM

A quick check of their negatives shows you are not the first buyer to get an overgraded, cleaned raw coin from them.

Previous buyers could not get a refund either.

Boom · March 28, 2005 7:23PM

Ken, as an ANA Member and yes, a Power Seller that proudly displays a 100% positive rating....as a seller that has gone so far as to take coins out of flips prepared for submission to PCGS and selling them RAW (sacrificing them) in an effort to do MY part to restore buyer confidence in this venue called eBay, I must say that truly I am appalled by this "behavior unbecoming that of an ANA Member/ Dealer" and have, on your behalf, a prepared email (draft) ready to send him.

To think that a seller of this caliber would give you such a hard time for a measley $100, is simply beyond comprehension. To think that he would intentionally misrepresent himself with a lot of meaningless double talk is inexcusable and a serious violation of the ANA Member/ Dealer code of ethics.

I recall you were one of the first to step up to this last Christmas' Charity and now, the least I can do for you is try to help and if push comes to shove, to report him to the ANA. I know our Charter and it's bylaws and while he may not have to extend a return privilege where eBay is concerned, HE DOES as far as the ANA is concerned, UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. His statements contradict his actions thus far and the Fraud he refers to..... Well, it appears that the proverbial shoe is in the other foot.

Locked and loaded.

B00M

Fairlaneman · March 28, 2005 9:40PM

<< That second pic makes it look really bad, but I'm guressing it looks more like the first in hand. Still not a 64 to my eyes but I cannot decide from the pics if its just a weak strike or AU.

Chris >>

The second picture is a good shot of the coin and actually the first picture is not. Hairlines are all over her neck and some of them are severe. Myself being 57 and with the eyes failing a little spotted the hairlining on this coin right off the bat with no tilting of the coin or the use of a loupe. Some luster is still present but certainly not enough for a mint state coin.

Since the start of this thread I have received another Email from the seller. What I did is reply and ask for a clear explanation of the return policy if I was to take the coin out of the original flip and send it to a grading service. Maybe a reply will come from the seller and maybe not. I will wait for a couple of days to see what he has to say.

To say the very least I am very disappointed with the way the seller has handled this whole affair. Hopefully my last Email will bring some results and then this mess can be forgotten and racked up as another lesson learned. Geez just who can you trust within this hobby. No wonder some people have such a disgust for dealers.

By the way. Also in the mail today I received another raw coin. It came from a board member and it is exactly as described if not nicer. That perked the attitude up a little.

Thanks for all of the replys and suggestions. I really hope the seller takes a peek at this thread.

Ken

UncleJoe · March 28, 2005 10:06PM

You are completely dumb!!!

Don't know about the rest of you folks but a company that uses such wording in their auction lots will never get a bid, or even a look, from me.

Bingo! I understand how you may have been enticed, but their terms made it a no-win situation for you unless you now want to take the time and trouble to submit the coin or complain about them to whatever authority may help you out. Both a waste of time, money and/or effort.

No PayPal, NO large bids. Terms that I need a lawyer to decipher, NO large bids. (you define large)

And no, I don't think you are dumb, just maybe a bit unrealistic as to how this was going to turn out. (and even if somehow you get your money back, it still is/was a pain in the a$$ to deal with it. Next time look for the signs for a NO BID auction.

Joe.

Fairlaneman · March 28, 2005 10:52PM

" You are completely dumb" Thanks Joe. A slap back to reality was needed.

Here is a better shot of the hairlining on the neck. The very bottom line that shows is not hairlining. It is a die crack.

Ken

maddogale · March 28, 2005 11:12PM

Ken, I hope you get this resolved, but I think what may happen is that this seller will say that the coin you are trying to return ( or have graded to prove your point on BB-ing ) is just another that you have switched....

Fight it as best you can, but I wouldn't have any hope of a good ending on this one! JMO,of course.

Good luck!!

carl · March 28, 2005 11:21PM

There was a good idea posted to your message that you should email that seller and let him know about this forums statements about him. thanks for the info though because I'll never buy from him and no one else should either.

291fifth · March 28, 2005 11:29PM

They stood behind their claim that the coin would grade at either PCGS, NGC or ANACS. The coin would easily grade at ANACS...as a net grade. I'm surprised you didn't catch that in the way they worded the description.

TAP444 · March 29, 2005 12:57AM

I would write and call the ANA about them if they refuse a refund
also report them to ebay,
Tim

Seller is Now "NARU'ed !! Yep another Great Ebay Seller. Just Remember, "Buyer Beware&quot

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Seller is Now &quot;NARU'ed !! Yep another Great Ebay Seller. Just Remember, &quot;Buyer Beware&quot

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Seller is Now "NARU'ed !! Yep another Great Ebay Seller. Just Remember, "Buyer Beware&quot