ER, I know you said that you buy the coin and not the plastic, and that is commendable and right. However, you also need to consider the type of seller that would deal in bottom-feeder plastic. They're not stupid; they know they're selling junk. It doesn't surprise me in the least that he's backing out of his return policy on technicalities. I'm sure no matter what you did, there's no way he was going to send back your $1300 without a fight.
If it were me, I'd suck it up as just another damn life lesson. I'd resell the coins, being careful to fully and honestly describe them, and take whatever loss may come. And then move on.
Otherwise, it's lawyer time, and unless you live close enough to the seller to make small claims court viable, I can't see any good coming from that. Yes, the principle, but principle schminciple. Sometimes it's more worthwhile just to get on with one's life than to waste time with lawyers and courts.
I'd also like to add that the thread title is a misnomer. This issue has precious little to do with eBay (and PayPal, for that matter), and more to do with just a buyer, a seller, and a big steaming pile of dung slabs.
<< <i>Sorry, EJ, but when you play with bottom feeder slabbers, you get:
>>
Dahntay!!! Duke fan flamino?
To get back to numismatics, I think some of the criticism of EJ for seeking a rip isn't fair- he stated that he didn't expect the slabs to be graded correctly,merely that they be actual, not doctored, in color. And he asked seller if they were altered, and was told no. And the buyer is being attacked from both ends-for seeking a bargain, and for putting that much money into PCI and NTC gold plastic. Which is it- did he pay too much, or not enough?
John, why not try emailing him again and explaining your side the way you did here? Not to criticise you, but seller was likely surprised since he hadn't heard from you in more than 2 weeks (from his point of view) following alot of presale emails- first he heard was your (admittedly fair) letter requesting a refund. Its worth a try- you could even copy this thread and send it to him? He may be fair but stubborn, and just hasn't looked at it from your side. Don
In response to the last post, there is almost no way that you are going to be a "red" coin in one of these slabs unless you are buying a very common, very recent issue.
An MS-63, red coin will have marks and more likely "fly specks" which are little black spots that more on copper and copper-nickel coins. There is no way that you are going to fool even a novice collector with an MS-65, red graded coin that has black spots all over it. Therefore the has to be cleaned to maket it "marketable." That's the lesson that John should learn here. There are no "slightly overgraded" "red" copper coins.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Beleive it or not, I've made my biggest upgrades to PCGS on PCI coins. I had several coins upgrade 3 full grades going from PCI to PCGS (Crack outs of course).
Most of theiur stuff is junk..and I think that comes from bigger dealers that have some sort of "in" with PCI. Where I find the cream is with individuals that have submitted to PCI. They hit them hard.
Nothing wrong with taking a chance on PCI coins with what appeared to be a reputable seller.
<< <i>Nothing wrong with taking a chance on PCI coins with what appeared to be a reputable seller. >>
I agree. Take the chance. But when it doesn't go your way, be a man about it. Don't go all baby and return them because they weren't the right shade of red.
OK, that was a little harsh. But you get the idea...
Yes you can get upgrades and make money from PCI, but from what I've seen most of the time it's with gold and silver, NOT red copper.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
A good coin can be found in any holder. John felt he was protecting his interests by verifying return policy. An e-mail would have been good to notify seller but I have seen e-mail notification within 5 days of receit stipulated in auctions if you plan on returning item. I feel John did nothing wrong here am glad at least we all know his name.
Something I have noticed from reading the thread, and the critical replies....
Everyone is ASSuming he tried a rip......how many know what his MAX bid was? Not the bid he won at when competition dropped out, but the max bid? Anybody? If nobody, and if he hasn't told (and I missed it), then shut up about trying for a rip.
Next, he asked if the coins had been cleaned....less worried about the grade than the color originality. So, again, shut up about him wanting to return them....the seller said "no" in his opinion and he had the return policy.
Maybe the seller actually didn't think they were cleaned, and when told they were, doesn't want to take them back at the highest prices he would probably receive for them already being realized (and refunded!) and then try to sell them only to expect others would notice they were cleaned and would come back.
Send it to the people's court.....judgement found in favor of the plantiff!
btw...I think BillJones had the most reasonable bit of knowledge in this thread (and, Flamino, I love ya man, ever since RCC, but ya seem to be on a high horse here lately about how people are doing it all to themselves and aren't knowledgable enough to pick their own noses, much less pick coins).
BillJones said: That's the lesson that John should learn here. There are no "slightly overgraded" "red" copper coins. THAT is worth thinking about.
<< <i>(and, Flamino, I love ya man, ever since RCC, but ya seem to be on a high horse here lately about how people are doing it all to themselves and aren't knowledgable enough to pick their own noses, much less pick coins). >>
Dude, I c'n FEEL the LUV!!! Madness XOXOXO right back at 'cha.
I don't mean to imply that people do this to themselves or that they're morons. But the Libertarian in me says that people need to accept responsibility for their actions. We are quick to try to blame the seller, eBay (see thread title), PayPal, NTC, PCI, and whomever else, but we pull back when considering the person who initiated the situation, and who had the most control. EJ could have just walked away. He could have done better research. But he didn't. He made his choices, and now has to deal with the ramifications of those choices. Personal responsibility, that's what I'm on about.
Comments
-Paul
<< <i>So, sonofagunk is the seller? >>
Sure looks like it.
Edited to add: The way you worded it sounded like you were the seller. OK everyone, put away the popcorn.
<< <i>Nope, Not the seller, I just asked the seller that question (I am sonofagunk on here and ebay)
-Paul >>
Okay, good. The way you posted, it seemed like it was you.
Russ, NCNE
If it were me, I'd suck it up as just another damn life lesson. I'd resell the coins, being careful to fully and honestly describe them, and take whatever loss may come. And then move on.
Otherwise, it's lawyer time, and unless you live close enough to the seller to make small claims court viable, I can't see any good coming from that. Yes, the principle, but principle schminciple. Sometimes it's more worthwhile just to get on with one's life than to waste time with lawyers and courts.
<< <i>Sorry, EJ, but when you play with bottom feeder slabbers, you get:
Dahntay!!! Duke fan flamino?
To get back to numismatics, I think some of the criticism of EJ for seeking a rip isn't fair- he stated that he didn't expect the slabs to be graded correctly,merely that they be actual, not doctored, in color. And he asked seller if they were altered, and was told no. And the buyer is being attacked from both ends-for seeking a bargain, and for putting that much money into PCI and NTC gold plastic. Which is it- did he pay too much, or not enough?
John,
why not try emailing him again and explaining your side the way you did here? Not to criticise you, but seller was likely surprised since he hadn't heard from you in more than 2 weeks (from his point of view) following alot of presale emails- first he heard was your (admittedly fair) letter requesting a refund. Its worth a try- you could even copy this thread and send it to him? He may be fair but stubborn, and just hasn't looked at it from your side.
Don
An MS-63, red coin will have marks and more likely "fly specks" which are little black spots that more on copper and copper-nickel coins. There is no way that you are going to fool even a novice collector with an MS-65, red graded coin that has black spots all over it. Therefore the has to be cleaned to maket it "marketable." That's the lesson that John should learn here. There are no "slightly overgraded" "red" copper coins.
Beleive it or not, I've made my biggest upgrades to PCGS on PCI coins. I had several coins upgrade 3 full grades going from PCI to PCGS (Crack outs of course).
Most of theiur stuff is junk..and I think that comes from bigger dealers that have some sort of "in" with PCI. Where I find the cream is with individuals that have submitted to PCI. They hit them hard.
Nothing wrong with taking a chance on PCI coins with what appeared to be a reputable seller.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>Nothing wrong with taking a chance on PCI coins with what appeared to be a reputable seller. >>
I agree. Take the chance. But when it doesn't go your way, be a man about it. Don't go all baby and return them because they weren't the right shade of red.
OK, that was a little harsh. But you get the idea...
protecting his interests by verifying return policy. An e-mail
would have been good to notify seller but I have seen e-mail
notification within 5 days of receit stipulated in auctions if
you plan on returning item. I feel John did nothing wrong here
am glad at least we all know his name.
Something I have noticed from reading the thread, and the critical replies....
Everyone is ASSuming he tried a rip......how many know what his MAX bid was? Not the bid he won at when competition dropped out, but the max bid?
Anybody? If nobody, and if he hasn't told (and I missed it), then shut up about trying for a rip.
Next, he asked if the coins had been cleaned....less worried about the grade than the color originality.
So, again, shut up about him wanting to return them....the seller said "no" in his opinion and he had the return policy.
Maybe the seller actually didn't think they were cleaned, and when told they were, doesn't want to take them back at the highest prices he would probably receive for them already being realized (and refunded!) and then try to sell them only to expect others would notice they were cleaned and would come back.
Send it to the people's court.....judgement found in favor of the plantiff!
btw...I think BillJones had the most reasonable bit of knowledge in this thread (and, Flamino, I love ya man, ever since RCC, but ya seem to be on a high horse here lately about how people are doing it all to themselves and aren't knowledgable enough to pick their own noses, much less pick coins).
BillJones said: That's the lesson that John should learn here. There are no "slightly overgraded" "red" copper coins.
THAT is worth thinking about.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>(and, Flamino, I love ya man, ever since RCC, but ya seem to be on a high horse here lately about how people are doing it all to themselves and aren't knowledgable enough to pick their own noses, much less pick coins). >>
Dude, I c'n FEEL the LUV!!! Madness XOXOXO right back at 'cha.
I don't mean to imply that people do this to themselves or that they're morons. But the Libertarian in me says that people need to accept responsibility for their actions. We are quick to try to blame the seller, eBay (see thread title), PayPal, NTC, PCI, and whomever else, but we pull back when considering the person who initiated the situation, and who had the most control. EJ could have just walked away. He could have done better research. But he didn't. He made his choices, and now has to deal with the ramifications of those choices. Personal responsibility, that's what I'm on about.