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ajaan · March 23, 2005 10:17PM

No longer relavant.

wybrit · March 23, 2005 10:21PM

...housed in an older PCGS holder.

I've often wondered what the point of this statement is. Opinions?

ajaan · March 23, 2005 10:26PM

Many people believe that older holders have undergraded coins in them?

wybrit · March 23, 2005 10:31PM

I don't believe that. It's more likely that there was less consistency in grading in the old days with world coins. You might get an overgraded coin just as easily as an undergraded one. As the TPG industry has seen more examples and learned more about the true high points of world coins, the grading has become more accurate.

ajaan · March 23, 2005 10:37PM

I don't believe it also. I think most undergraded old holder coins have been cracked out. Perhaps NEN got a complaint when someone was sent an old holder coin and they wanted a nice blue one.

wybrit · March 23, 2005 10:41PM

That seems plausible.

Aethelred · March 23, 2005 10:43PM

Although PCGS will tell you it is not true and you are crazy for thinking so, the fact is that grading standards for some coins have changed since the 1980s when the small holders were used.

theboz11 · March 23, 2005 10:43PM

I have to disagree, I have just received Four coins back ($20 Saints) that were in MS- 64 Rattler holders. Three came back as MS-65. I have several more to resubmit. I was told on the US Forum that this reflects Market conditions, whatever that means. I do believe grading standards have changed. The Difference in price from 64 to 65 is Doubled.

wybrit · March 23, 2005 10:51PM

I have just received Four coins back ($20 Saints) that were in MS- 64 Rattler holders. Three came back as MS-65. I have several more to resubmit. I was told on the US Forum that this reflects Market conditions, whatever that means. I do believe grading standards have changed. The Difference in price from 64 to 65 is Doubled.

This may be the case for US coins, but I question the validity of any of that for world coins, except maybe for Canadian material.

ajaan · March 23, 2005 10:53PM

It's been my experience that PCGS is all over the place with Canadian coins. I bought a PCGS MS64 dollar from a major dealer and had to return it because I thought it was MS62 at best. Then again I've seen PCGS coins that were right on the grade.

farthing · March 23, 2005 11:02PM

As as been pointed out before on the US Forum many trust the stability of the color of the coin in an older holder. If the coin had been messed with the coins color would have had time to revert to its natural state.

ccrdragon · March 24, 2005 12:44AM

I think farthing has made the only valid point about the older 'rattler' holders - the coin has been in the holder long enough for problems to show up - esp. for copper. As for grading, I do not believe that the grading was either tighter or looser in the 'old days' - I have seen both under and over graded coins in the old holders.

As the saying goes 'buy the coin and not the holder'.

MacCrimmon · March 24, 2005 1:33AM

The problem with grading World coinage is that the graders are really only generalists, for the most part. The major countries coinage can only be accurate and consistent over time if they are being assessed by a true specialist in that countries coinage.

As to Boz's comments on the gold, I used to have a nice collection of rare date Lib. $10s and $20s (MS62 & 63), and you can take it from me that gold has seen a lot of "grade inflation", especially on the commodity dates. When I viewed the gold at last years ANA I found that the grades/consistency were all over the map (these were PCGS only slabs).

And, for equal treatment, I've seen an incredible amount of World gold in NGC slabs in the MS61-63 range which is truly circulated........if you're buying the commodity type pieces, no real harm, but be very careful when asked to pay a premium for any "vault quantity" World gold.

Steve27 · March 24, 2005 2:36AM

There is no doubt in my mind that they're exploiting the perception that all old PCGS holders contain undergraded coins; even if it was never true for world coins.

CIVITAS · March 24, 2005 3:54AM

In their defense, they've stated nothing but facts. The buyer/reader is to draw his own conclusions. But, since their auction is priced in USD, it would be perhaps a bit more appropriate to state the converted Charlton value. Of course anyone who knows anything about Canadian coins should know that Charlton prices in CAD. And anyone who knows price guides knows that the numbers are ultimately meaningless regarding the marketability of a coin unless Charlton (or Krause, or Redbook, or Greysheet, etc.) is buying or selling at those numbers (which of course is not the case).

nencoin · March 24, 2005 4:34AM

<< <i>There is no doubt in my mind that they're exploiting the perception that all old PCGS holders contain undergraded coins; even if it was never true for world coins. >>

It's disappointing when some people jump to conclusions like this. Oh, well. For those interested in knowing the actual reason why we mention it, it's simply because we get so many requests from people wanting to know what generation the holder is. A surprising number of people out there want their slabs to match. We have found the best way to handle the issue is to just state when the holder is any generation but the new one. We even have customers who prefer their blue label PCGS holders to be of the same generation (bar code on obverse versus bar code on reverse).

Regarding coins 'conservatively' graded, we'll specifically mention that fact for coins that we feel are truly conservatively graded - regardless of the generation of the holder. It would be ill-advised for someone to start assuming an old holder = conservative grade.

Re the Charlton price, it certainly can be misleading to some folks, and something that I never even realized. The conclusion jumpers probably assume we are trying to rip people off...for those who have ever done business with us, they likely will understand that is not the case. Especially when the coin we are listing is half of Charlton, regardless of the currency. We'll certainly do our best to remember to list the currency as Canadian for future Charlton references.

Chris

ccrdragon · March 24, 2005 5:09AM

Very well said, Nen!!

Clankeye · March 24, 2005 5:18AM

<< <i>The conclusion jumpers probably assume we are trying to rip people off...for those who have ever done business with us, they likely will understand that is not the case. >>

Northeast is one of the few major retail dealers that I have absolutely no doubts about their integrity and business ethics. And I don't make an endorsement like that lightly.

ajaan · March 24, 2005 6:11AM

I agree with you 100% Carl. NEN is one my favorite places to buy certified and uncertified coins. I have never had a problem with them. Perhaps it was bad judgement for me to mention this in the forum. I should have brought it to NEN's attention first. I apologize to Chris and NEN.

Kudos to NEN for changing the list to say Canadian Dollars.

spinaker2000 · March 24, 2005 7:08AM

I agree with the above coments about NEN. I like'm, I buy from them when the good coppers show up, and I have some nice ones from them. Just wish they could find more SA coins and take more pics. But they are always very fast in taking pics of coins that you request on line.

SYRACUSIAN · March 24, 2005 11:27AM

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wybrit · March 24, 2005 11:39AM

Northeast is one of the few major retail dealers that I have absolutely no doubts about their integrity and business ethics.

I agree with that!

Compa · March 26, 2005 8:58AM

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