Ebay warning

EJ · March 23, 2005 5:18AM

I know nobody likes to read negative things but I feel if the following can help even one person keep from getting ripped off it’s worth it.

I recently purchased a pair of Lincoln cents (Ebay item #3957995996 and #3958762982) from Mark Lucken, ebay user northcountrycoin who offers a five day return policy. In a discussion before the sale I told Mr. Lucken that I wasn’t expecting true 65’s (the coins are in NTC and PCI holders) but as long as the coins were not dipped or re-colored I’d be satisfied. The coins were dipped junk. I received the coins on 03-10-05 and postmarked them for return on 03-11-05 and even volunteered to let Mr. Lucken keep $25.00 for his effort. Today, 03-23-05 I received the coins back (in an envelope with no return address) with his refusal to honor his return policy.

Ebay sure is becoming a dangerous place to do business!

relayer · March 23, 2005 5:20AM

Link and Link

I guess by return policy he meant he'd return them back to you

Edit $599!!! I'd file a fraud complaint with eBay

Russ · March 23, 2005 5:22AM

Auctions:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3957995996

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3958762982

Are you going to neg him to warn others?

Edit: Damn, Relayer is quick on the draw!

Russ, NCNE

stev32k · March 23, 2005 5:28AM

If you paid via paypal or credit card file a complaint to get your money back.

ziggy29 · March 23, 2005 5:29AM

<< Are you going to neg him to warn others?

Edit: Damn, Relayer is quick on the draw! >>

The seller already left positives a while back, so there's no reason not to...

mikebombs · March 23, 2005 5:32AM

EJ turn your pm on.

EJ · March 23, 2005 5:34AM

To relayer: Although this is a sad situation your post made me LOL!

I have neg'd the feedback, reported to ebay and have given the seller 10 days to return funds before filing a mail fraud report.

I just don't understand the mentality of people willing to do cheat others like this.

XpipedreamR · March 23, 2005 5:34AM

What the hell? Did he give a reason he wasn't honoring his stated policy?

K6AZ · March 23, 2005 5:39AM

<< If you paid via paypal or credit card file a complaint to get your money back. >>

This is a case where it's going to be tough to get PayPal to reverse the charge. The seller offered a PCI 65 and a NTC 65 and that's what the buyer got.

BillJones · March 23, 2005 5:41AM

I'm sorry EJ, but the brand names on the holders often tell you a lot. Most people who have coins slabbed by those companies select those certification services for a reason, and often it's not a reason that will benefit collectors.

The thing about copper minted beore the 1930s is that much of it has toned and become brown or R&B as a consequence of nature. Therefore any natural copper coin that has original red from the era is really quite scarce.

I don't deal in Lincoln cents very much because it seems that most Lincoln collectors want them red. Sadly many Lincoln colelctors can't tell the difference between "real red" and "worked on red." I got tied of finding nice orginal coins for collectors only to have them tell my prices were too high. Then they would show me a piece of shined up junk and say, "See! I got this for a lot less!" You can almost be rest assured that if you buy an old better date Lincoln cent in "red Uncirculated" at a bargain price that you will get junk.

My advice would be to find a dealer who can tell the difference, send him your want list and expect to pay big bucks for the real "red" thing. If you can accept R&B and Brown copper, you will save some money and also end up with something is worthwhile IMO. You are right. Cleaned shined up Lincoln cents are junk.

Ebay is a minefield. I do buy some stuff on eBay, but it is almost exclusively modern coins that don't need to be worked on to make them "marketable."

291fifth · March 23, 2005 5:42AM

You were looking for a "bargain" and got just what you deserved.

Millertime · March 23, 2005 5:51AM

<< You were looking for a "bargain" and got just what you deserved. >>

It shouldn't matter if EJ was looking for a "bargain". If the seller states a return policy then the seller should honor it, EJ shouldn't have to bite the bullet because he was looking to find a "bargain".

Millertime

stev32k · March 23, 2005 5:52AM

<<This is a case where it's going to be tough to get PayPal to reverse the charge. The seller offered a PCI 65 and a NTC 65 and that's what the buyer got.>>

The complaint is that the seller did not honor his stated return policy. The listing says the coins can be returned for a refund within five days. There are no stipulations about not returning coins in certified holders or anything else. Seems to be an unconditional five day return policy. The buyer tried to return the items within the five day period and the seller refused to accept them. That is the complaint. I don't think the buyer needs to prove anything except he tried to return them within the time allowed.

Coinhusker1 · March 23, 2005 6:01AM

prooflike · March 23, 2005 6:02AM

I think you were nuts for putting out that much change on NTC & PCI gold plastic.

The return policy doesn't say you'll get your money back... it appears you'll just get the items back...

The seller is a PowerSeller, they're supposed to be honest and demonstrate good community values, you may want to try that approach through ebay.

K6AZ · March 23, 2005 6:20AM

<< <<This is a case where it's going to be tough to get PayPal to reverse the charge. The seller offered a PCI 65 and a NTC 65 and that's what the buyer got.>>

The complaint is that the seller did not honor his stated return policy. The listing says the coins can be returned for a refund within five days. There are no stipulations about not returning coins in certified holders or anything else. Seems to be an unconditional five day return policy. The buyer tried to return the items within the five day period and the seller refused to accept them. That is the complaint. I don't think the buyer needs to prove anything except he tried to return them within the time allowed. >>

PayPal won't do reversals over return policies. He can try, but as long as the seller has proof of delivery, it's not going to happen with PayPal. I know, I went though this exact scenario one time. Unless a coin is significantly not as described and the seller has POD, the buyer loses.

Dave99B · March 23, 2005 6:21AM

EJ - Sorry to hear about this. Did he give any indication why he is refusing the return?

Dave

100proof1957 · March 23, 2005 6:23AM

The bidding on the first one smacks of a shill !

He does say 5 day return,how do you interpret that ?

Russ · March 23, 2005 6:28AM

<< The seller is a PowerSeller, they're supposed to be honest >>

Russ, NCNE

100proof1957 · March 23, 2005 6:35AM

I use to bargain shop as well.

Looking at 3rd and 4th tier graders,automatically deduct 2 grade points,then use the PCGS price guide and deduct 50 % for the arrived at grade.

Then ask yourself,am i willing to lose that much money.

Heck i get beat up buying NGC coins !

flaminio · March 23, 2005 6:40AM

Sorry, EJ, but when you play with bottom feeder slabbers, you get:

Wolf359 · March 23, 2005 6:42AM

Forget PayPal. Is you used a credit card, call the CC company. I got mine reversed after a 5 minute phone call.

K6AZ · March 23, 2005 6:46AM

<< Forget PayPal. Is you used a credit card, call the CC company. I got mine reversed after a 5 minute phone call. >>

If you bypass PP and go straight to your CC company, PP will close your account. You need to file the dispute with PP, and if they turn you down then go to the CC issuer.

Wolf359 · March 23, 2005 6:50AM

If you bypass PP and go straight to your CC company, PP will close your account. You need to file the dispute with PP, and if they turn you down then go to the CC issuer.

If they want to act like that, I could care less. Good riddance to them.

stev32k · March 23, 2005 6:55AM

<<If you bypass PP and go straight to your CC company, PP will close your account.>>

I've bypassed paypal and gone to my credit card company twice to reverse a charge, and I still have a paypal account. Maybe it depends on your credit card company?

K6AZ · March 23, 2005 7:14AM

They have closed accounts for bypassing them. From their Buyer Complaint Policy:

PayPal encourages all buyer purchase disputes that cannot be resolved directly with the seller to be filed and resolved through the Resolution Center. PayPal reserves the right to terminate or limit account access privileges of buyers who misuse the credit card chargeback process to get their money back and keep the goods, or to recover payment twice for the same dispute, or who file three or more chargebacks per 12-month period that are ruled invalid by the applicable card association or card issuer. PayPal reserves the right to contest credit card chargebacks, in accordance with the rules of the applicable card issuer or card association.

stev32k · March 23, 2005 7:44AM

<< PayPal reserves the right to terminate or limit account access privileges of buyers who misuse the credit card chargeback process to get their money back and keep the goods, or to recover payment twice for the same dispute, or who file three or more chargebacks per 12-month period that are ruled invalid by the applicable card association or card issuer. PayPal reserves the right to contest credit card chargebacks, in accordance with the rules of the applicable card issuer or card>>

Notice the first sentence. It says they can terminate your account if you misuse the process to keep the goods and get your money back, or to recover payment twice. Yeah, I hope they would terminate the account of someone that did that. If you use the chargeback process the way it is intended to be used i.e. you are not trying to cheat someone - I don't believe there is a problem. In my case I never heard a word from PayPal either time. I returned the items - sent documentation to my credit card company (both sellers had badly misrepresented the items) my account was credited and I never heard a peep from paypal.

K6AZ · March 23, 2005 7:49AM

Believe whatever you want to. I've seen several people have their account closed for not filing with PP first. Those are the rules you agree to when you sign up.

100proof1957 · March 23, 2005 7:55AM

K6,

i believe even the mighty Paypal will tread lightly when it comes to trying to circumvent FEDERAL consumer protection laws.

K6AZ · March 23, 2005 8:07AM

This has nothing to do with the FCRA or any other consumer law. When you sign up for PP, you agree to the TOS, which state if you go straight to the card issuer, PP reserves the right to close your PP account.

Bottom line, always file with PP first. Then if they deny your dispute, then file with the CC company.

goose3 · March 23, 2005 8:26AM

<< 

<< Forget PayPal. Is you used a credit card, call the CC company. I got mine reversed after a 5 minute phone call. >>

If you bypass PP and go straight to your CC company, PP will close your account. You need to file the dispute with PP, and if they turn you down then go to the CC issuer. >>

for 599 smackers! Let them close it!

EJ, please tell us More about your transaction.....How exactly did you pay?

Myqqy · March 23, 2005 8:58AM

Wow- that's a big chunk of change to lose on those two slabs.... did you ever speak to the seller on the phone? Good luck!

Dave99B · March 23, 2005 9:03AM

For some reason I'm getting a feeling we aren't getting the whole story here.

Dave

Wekar · March 23, 2005 11:01AM

Sorry to hear about your problems. I wish there was something I could do, but all I can do is wish you luck resolving the problem...

that, and, I'm now going to spend a little time trying to convince eBay to create a blocked sellers list. They have a blocked bidders list, so sellers can block scumbag buyers, why can't I create a blocked sellers list so that I don't even accidentally try to buy something from a scumbag seller like this guy. I welcome anyone else to suggest eBay create a blocked sellers list. dang, eBay reallys sucks sometimes, I was going to post a link to where I'm trying to make this suggestion, but I keep getting HTTP 404 errors on all the 'contact us' type links.

EJ · March 23, 2005 11:56AM

Hello all and thank you for the replies, advice and support.

I will clarify a couple things and see if I can convey the “whole” story.

I’m an avid collector of Lincoln’s, especially varieties. I consider myself and so do many others quite knowledgeable about Lincoln varieties and grading of Lincoln’s. There are a few people on this board that know me and know I have respectable knowledge, integrity and standards. I collect “coins”, not “holders”. I am not and have never been afraid of purchasing coins in the off brand holders as long as they have a return policy.

First, to clarify one thing of great importance - I was not looking for a bargain.

I saw the coins on ebay and was interested in purchasing them. I contacted Mark Lucken via email and verified and clarified his return policy. I also explained to him that I was not so concerned about the technical grade of the coins but of the color and originality of the surfaces. He stated that in his opinion the coins were not re-colored or re-toned. He then reiterated that the coins come with a five day NQA return policy.

I won the auctions.

I sent Mark the following email:

Original Message -----
From: "mailto:jscott83@tds.net"
To: "mailto:4.luck@comcast.net"
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 11:24 PM
Subject: eBay Item: LINCOLN 1913-S * PCI MS65 RED * NO RESERVE! (Item #3957995996)
Hello,
I will get payment out right away. Just to confirm: Your return policy is that I have 5 days to postmark the coin for return from the day I receive it. Correct?
Thank you!
John Scott
1298 East State Road 136, Suite C
Pittsboro, IN. 46167
(317) 892-2051
Cell (760) 508-5855

I received the following reply:

Original Message -----
From: "mailto:4.luck@comcast.net"
To: "mailto:jscott83@tds.net"
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: eBay Item: LINCOLN 1913-S * PCI MS65 RED * NO RESERVE! (Item #3957995996)
Hi John, thank you for your purchases of the 1913-S and 1924-S Lincolns. My 5 day return policy means you have 5 days from the day you receive the coin. You make it sound like you plan on returning it. I hope that is not the case. I take close-up detailed pictures of my coins so there are no surprises when the coin is received.
I am assuming you are sending one payment for both coins, so add 10.00 total to the bid price for shipping and insurance and I will send the coins out via registered mail. You can use paypal, check, or money order. Checks will have to clear first. Thanks again.
Mark L.

I then sent the following reply:

Original Message -----
From: "mailto:jscott83@tds.net"
To: "mailto:4.luck@comcast.net"
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: eBay Item: LINCOLN 1913-S * PCI MS65 RED * NO RESERVE! (Item #3957995996)
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the note. No, I don't plan nor do I hope that I have to return either of the coins. It's a waste of my time and money as well as yours. My goal is to acquire nice coins. I asked because the majority of the time that people use NTC or PCI it's because the coins have been cleaned. The fact that you offer a return policy makes me feel you are a straight shooter...which is why I bid. It is my intent to build good long term relations with others. However, if the coins have been cleaned or are grossly over graded I will return them. Fair enough?
I'll get payment out tomorrow (Monday).
Thanks,
John

I then received the following reply: (sorry, I don’t know how to get the header copied on the last correspondence in the chain of emails)

Hi John,
I agree with you, nobody wants a cleaned coin when you are dishing out good money for them. I understand that ntc has holdered some cleaned coins but I believe you will be pleasantly surprised with the coins you purchased. I am a straight shooter though and if you do not like the coins, let me know and I will issue a refund. Thanks,
Mark L.

I think the question of what was the return policy was directly answered.

The following letter was sent with the returned coins via registered mail #RA 741 540 313 US and postmarked 3-11-05:

March 10, 2005

Mark Lucken
North County Coin
P. O. Box 480124
Coon Rapids, MN. 55448

Dear Mr. Lucken,

I received the two enclosed coins (1913-S Lincoln cent, PCI MS65RED, Ebay item #3957995996 and 1924-S Lincoln cent, NTC MS65RED, Ebay item # 3958762982) yesterday and regret to inform you that I’m returning them for a refund.

First I would like to thank you for the great service. Furthermore the fact that you stand behind your sales is very commendable and I admire that.

Both of these coins have been dipped. The 24-S is obvious at first glance. However the 13-S is very nicely done and required special lighting to confirm.

The fact is that both coins are a good value at the price I paid. They’re just not what I’m looking for for my personal collection.

As I took a chance on these (PCI and NTC) coins I feel that you took a chance as well in sending them with a return policy. I also feel that you properly represented the coins and that you conduct an upstanding business. Therefore I propose that you retain $25.00 of the purchase price as well as the shipping and insurance cost as a fee for your trouble. Is that fair to you?

Again, thank you for your time and effort. I’m sorry the coins weren’t for me but hopefully we can consummate a deal in the future,

Respectfully,

John Scott

Please send refund to:

John Scott
1298 East State Road 136, Suite C
Pittsboro, IN 46167

I received the following letter along with the coins he sent back.

John,

I am sending these back to you for several reasons. The first is your lack of communication after you received the coins. YOU SHOULD HAVE CONTACTED ME IMMEDIATELY AFTRE RECEIVING THE COINS! I get these coins back over 2 weeks after I sent them to you, well beyond the 5 days for my return policy. Like you said in your letter, I did nothing to deceive anyone in my auctions. The coins in the pictures are the exact ones received. I do nothing with my photos to enhance or anything like that. I suggest you be more careful with your bidding in the future. If you don't like the coins you should just sell them on ebay and get your money back. If you feel you need to leave negative feedback to me that is your choice. YOU SHOULD HAVE SENT AN EMAIL IMMEDIATELY. I feel those coins are original, so we disagree on that but I guess that is not the point here. Sorry this turned out this way. Any attempt to send these back to me will be refused at the Post Office and returned to sender.

Mark

I paid for the items with a personal check. My attorney has informed me that this is mail fraud and is a federal offense. I have begun the process of recording and reporting this transaction to the proper authorities. I did send Mark Lucken a letter granting him 10 business days to make good on his contract...we’ll see.

It’s not an issue of the money, although nobody likes to get ripped off. It’s a matter of principal.

All advice is appreciated, thank you!

On a lighter note has anyone else noticed that the customer service at PCGS has greatly improved over the last few months?

Thanks,

John

pharmer · March 23, 2005 12:26PM

Hi, John, sorry this is happening to you. I have purchased a few items from you, and you are known for selling elusive varieties in high grades slabbed by pcgs. You get good prices in your auctions, and you have good service, in my experience.

When I got to the part about including the letter with the registered package back to the seller, I went back immediately to see if there was anything about an email, so I see the seller's point there. I would have emailed to say I was returning them. But his statement about getting them back 2 weeks after he sent them has no relevance, as you did as asked and sent them within the five days of receiving. I think any other seller would have taken them back email or not, and he is clearly violating his own stated policy, which you went out of your way to have him reinforce.

I think you have him and that you will prevail.

Two other things: first, I haven't noticed any improvement in customer service, but a lot of folks here say turnaround times are getting quite a bit shorter, which is the important part. I've got three submissions in now, so we'll see.

Second, I think you should post here more often.

mozeppa · March 23, 2005 12:31PM

hi john!

got my 35 ddo. today !

boy it is nice!.........early die state if ever was one! (show it to ya when i see ya!)

mike

ziggy29 · March 23, 2005 12:36PM

Just looked at your communications through the transaction. It looks like the first thing the seller saw from you about returning the coin was when he received the package with your letter.

Did you contact the seller via e-mail as soon as you wanted to return the coin? To be honest, as long as you sent the coins back in a timely manner I'd not hold that against anyone, but I think it would have been an appropriate courtesy to e-mail the seller with your intent to return the coins. I've never had a coin returned on me yet, and while I wouldn't require it, I know I'd appreciate a timely heads-up via e-mail if a buyer wanted to return a coin I sold to them.

In all honesty, though, I think your attorney needs a reality check. I can't see how this is mail fraud, and I don't see how the seller did anything criminally objectionable (though possibly civilly for not honoring return policies). The seller did deliver what was advertised.

BigGreek · March 23, 2005 1:02PM

What I sense is that the seller was looking for early notification for a return
(so he could set aside the funds?)

As a seller I would be surprised (but not shocked) at a return without some
notification via e-mail. I would still honor it, though. Especially with the terms
you gave.

The sellers suggestion that you turn around and sell the coins on ebay makes
it seem like he knew he was sending you junk to begin with.

bigtonydallas · March 23, 2005 1:09PM

John,
DONT INCLUDE YOUR ADDRESS IN YOUR SIG LINE FOR SECURITY PURPOSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the seller used the money after 5 days and does not want or cant give a refund!

mozin · March 23, 2005 4:31PM

John,

You notified the seller by email, within the 5 day period after receiving your package, that you intended to return his coins; you actually notified the day after delivery to you. To me it seems you did everything right except maybe offering to pay $25 profit to the seller of junk. Why pay money to a seller that sold you junk?

I would contact Ebay immediately just as you have done in this forum. Ebay needs to deal with this powerseller, plain and simple. Please continue to keep us informed in this thread because I am sure many of us want to see you through with this crooked seller.

Coppernicus · March 23, 2005 4:52PM

EJ - Sorry this happened to you and I hope you get "made whole" after the dust settles.

In the meantime, could you post some really nice pics of these two? The auction pics don't look too bad, but obviously you feel the coins did not live up to the grade. I'd be interested to hear some more detailed comments from you on the coins.

Thanks,

Mike

sonofagunk · March 23, 2005 10:35PM

So what is your return policy?

Hi,
My return policy is that you have 5 days from when you receive the item to notify me if a return is desired. If you are referring to the recent negative feedback to my account, the first in over 1,600 transactions, this person did not contact me for 2 weeks since receiving the coins. I figure 5 days from receiving an item should be plenty of time to figure out if you want to return it or not. Hope this clarifies things.
Mark

Coppernicus · March 23, 2005 10:39PM

SOAG - Do you agree with his assessment of the two coins?

Mike

segoja · March 23, 2005 11:47PM

GOOD LUCK WITH E-BAY. THEY JUST PLAIN DO NOT CARE.

AS FOR MAIL FRAUD, ONCE THE SELLER GETS SOME PAPERWORK FROM THE USPS, HE'LL STRAIGHTEN UP.

ANY SELLER WHO HAS A RETURN POLICY SHOULD HONOR IT PERIOD. YOU EVEN WENT OVERBOARD IN OFFERING $25 FOR THE TROUBLE.

EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD SHOULD NEVER BUY FROM THIS SELLER.

SEEMS LIKE AN OPEN AND SHUT CASE TO ME

RBinTex · March 24, 2005 12:09AM

From the USPS site:

"Current Status, You entered RA74 1540 313U S, Your item was delivered at 9:07 am on March 19, 2005 in MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55448"

If you sent the return to him 3/11, you must know that it didn't get to him until 3/19 LINK according to the P.O. That's AT LEAST 9 days from the day you must have received it if you sent it back the day after you received it.

He did reiterate his return policy to be

"My 5 day return policy means you have 5 days from the day you receive the coin."

Problem is, 5 Days to do what??? Get the return postmarked? Get it back in his hands? Admittedly he's using everything he can to be a total pr*ck but you might have been a little more careful in several respects of your transaction.

"I think you were nuts for putting out that much change on NTC & PCI gold plastic."

"The bidding on the first one smacks of a shill!"

"For some reason I'm getting a feeling we aren't getting the whole story here."

It seems like we have all the pertinent facts now.

"In all honesty, though, I think your attorney needs a reality check. I can't see how this is mail fraud, and I don't see how the seller did anything criminally objectionable (though possibly civilly for not honoring return policies). The seller did deliver what was advertised."

All said, though, the buyer was hoping for a rip, the seller is a lowlife clinging to an extremely narrow interpretation of the verbage stated in his "5-day" return policy.

If the buyer DID notify the seller within 5 days of receiving item I couldn't see ANY way seller could wiggle out of it. As it stands he's sticking by the fact that item received more than 5 days after buyers receipt - i.e. his first "notice" of intent to return.

Any honest & reasonable seller would use the delivery date to the buyer & the postmark on the returned item to calculate the number of days...

KurtHorn · March 24, 2005 12:14AM

It's not mail fraud... But it is a basic violation of contract law. You have a reciept for your return (registered) that is postmarked one day after you got them. I'm not sure what the limits are in Minnesota for small claims court, but if you can, that'd be the way to go.

His offer to sell and your agreement to purchase specified a 5 day return option. He didn't honor it,... he is in violation of contract. That simple. Sorry you have to go through all that junk to get re-dress.

-Kurt-

markglicker · March 24, 2005 12:17AM

Looks like this fella just doesn't want the coins back. As an Ebay seller, I am never anxious to get returns, but I am confident that I can resell them for about the same price, and get most of my fees back from Ebay. I would continue to pursue this guy. One other comment though, If you think that there is a pretty good chance that you will have to return a coin, buying on Ebay is not the best place.

pharmer · March 24, 2005 12:43AM

I may be mistaken, but don't we have the seller involved here in the discussion as well?

Russ · March 24, 2005 2:18AM

<< Hi,
My return policy is that you have 5 days from when you receive the item to notify me if a return is desired. If you are referring to the recent negative feedback to my account, the first in over 1,600 transactions, this person did not contact me for 2 weeks since receiving the coins. I figure 5 days from receiving an item should be plenty of time to figure out if you want to return it or not. Hope this clarifies things.
Mark >>

So, sonofagunk is the seller?

Russ, NCNE

flaminio · March 24, 2005 2:26AM

(Fireworks shelved...)

Ebay warning

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