My answers/comments: Would you sell coins to and/or buy coins from a dealer who is widely rumored to

coinguy1 · January 3, 2005 11:32AM

Hypothetical #1 : You have a group of PCGS coins for sale and learn that you can get top dollar (a minimum of 5% more than anyone else will pay) from a coin dealer who is widely rumored (here or elsewhere) to be a coin doctor....

Would you sell your coins to him?

Would it matter, if before you made your decision, you somehow learned that if he buys your coins, he will doctor one or more of them in an effort to get a higher grade at PCGS?

Would it have any effect on your decision, whether he seemed/acted like a nice guy or a jerk?

Hypothetical #2 : You are at a coin show and ready to buy a fairly priced, great looking PCGS coin from a dealer. Your pulse is racing in anticipation and you are ready to write the check. But, you suddenly remember you had heard widespread rumors that the dealer is a coin doctor and has had great success doctoring coins and getting them to upgrade.

Would you look at the coin differently?

Would you still buy it?

To any of you who would do business as usual in the above situations, what, if anything, would it take with respect to thinking or knowing the dealer was a coin doctor, to cause you not to do business with him?

Please note, these are hypothetical situations presented for the sake of (hopeful) interest, discussion and possible (good mannered) debate.

Myqqy · January 3, 2005 11:35AM

#1- I would probably sell the coin(s) to somebody else.
#2- I would definately inspect the coin a bit closer, but would ultimately trust my own eye and gut about whether or not the coin has been played with....

Jdurg · January 3, 2005 11:38AM

For me, if the guy was good enough to 'doctor' a coin and have it get by the people at PCGS, as well as my own eyes, then what can I do? If someone is that good then they'll get away with it. The thing is, it's really difficult to be 'that good' and each coin will have some type of trail in terms of what's been done to it.

coinbuf · January 3, 2005 11:40AM

Hmmm.. tough ethics questions tonight Mark. As for #1, I belive that we as collectors are simple caretakers of these round bits of metal so if I were at all concerned I like to think that I would not sell.

As for #2, yes if I again were sure that he was a doctor I would keep on going. This question is quite easy for me as I'm not much of a toning fan anyway.

Chris

dpoole · January 3, 2005 11:40AM

Mark,

I'd want to discourage coin doctoring, obviously because it undermines the hobby, and guts altogether the confidence the services have added for the hobbiest. Without certification, only the most experienced people confident in their sharp eye could afford to risk much money on coins. Such experience and sharp eyes are what you are supposed to be buying with the services. Presuming I'd heard the rumors from sources I trusted, I'd stear clear of the guy even though I didn't know for sure. So...guard your reputations!

On the buying end, I'd look at it closely, and I might walk it around to people like you for opinions. Depending on the circumstances, I might ask him directly if it had been doctored, if only to let him know that the news was out there.

MORGANHUNTER2 · January 3, 2005 11:40AM

Excellent Hypos- Mark.

#1- No- I would ahte to know that I sold this guy something that a TPG was unable to spot and managed to have it upgraded.

#2- I would get at least 2-3 opinions from people I knew (thru here) who can verify that what I see is not doctored even if the rumor has been spread.

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 11:46AM

RYK · January 3, 2005 11:48AM

The reality is for me, Mark, is that I would not know that I was dealing with a coin doctor even if I tripped over one.

In answer to your questions, I would say that it depends on the coin and circumstances. I would like to give an idealistic reply that I would NEVER ever deal with a coin doctor, but I can foresee hypothetical situations from yours that would have me willingly buy/sell a coin from/to a suspected or known coin doctor.

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 11:58AM

mirabela · January 3, 2005 12:05PM

Like RYK, my own skills at detection wouldn't reveal a *good* coin doctor to me if my life depended on it. So, for me this situation would depend on having gotten the 'heads up' here or from people like the experts among you elsewhere. I suppose on principle I'd steer clear in #1 and #2.

Playing devil's advocate, though -- with the awareness that I'm probably out of my depth doing so -- if the guy is so good that the graders effectively concur that the coin has been improved by his work, is it that bad? I know NCS is a controversial topic around here, and 'doctoring' can involve a number of things NCS doesn't do (such as applying things to the surface of a coin, as opposed to taking them away, or other sorts of surface alterations). Still, there seems to be a certain amount of acceptance among numismatists that there are times when a coin can be improved by services such as those NCS provides. I guess the tough question is where to draw the line. Obviously, if I held the only certified MS67 suchamawhat and this guy went and increased the population by five, I'd be agrieved. With that in mind, I wouldn't do business with the guy in either scenario. The question certainly points to a slippery slope, however. Good question!

ER · January 3, 2005 12:11PM

<< Would you sell coins to and/or buy coins from a dealer who is widely rumored to be a coin doctor? >>

Rumor but no proof/evidence, yes. Otherwise, no.

UncleWiggly · January 3, 2005 12:17PM

I don't want to sell or buy from a coin doctor. My problem is that I have not been around long enough to know who any of them are. What about crack out dealers? Are they primarily coin doctors also?

MrEureka · January 3, 2005 12:28PM

For the coins I actually care about, which might be only 10% of what I handle, I'd happily take 5% less to place a coin in a good long term home. In all other cases, the coin goes to the highest buyer, period. He can be a doctor, a jerk or a nice guy.

When viewing doctors' coins, I'd just look a bit closer at the coins.

ccex · January 3, 2005 12:32PM

Hypothetical #1: I would sell my coins to the alleged doctor if his offer was clearly the best, unless he was rude to me or other collectors standing nearby. I would end up selling to someone else if those coins were important rarities or well pedigreed, (but I don't expect to be selling such coins in my lifetime anyway). I have no problem selling common coins to dealers at fair prices, but couldn't live with myself as a temporary caretaker of a museum piece if I thought I could sell it to a better caretaker.

Hypothetical #2: I would buy a coin from an alleged doctor if it was in a PCGS slab. Maybe it was his "work". If it was, and I could afford it, I would be curious to own a coin whose appearance improved while not changing the "market acceptability" in the eyes of a grading service whose opinion counts and who guarantees its opinions.

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 12:34PM

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 12:45PM

.

Russ · January 3, 2005 12:53PM

<< There is this Buff nickle specialist here in Chicago - this guy works high caliber stuff ; RARE dates !! he starts with legidimate 64's and has perfected a toning process that duplicates the Raymond (sp ??) album lokk - hell , they look so real , he gets them in PCGS slabs and makes a bundle !!!
He's been at it for many years too - and people have tried to stop him ......but he has a small network of submitters accross the country and his stuff is so good , Pcgs is at his mercy ! >>

Russ, NCNE

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 1:08PM

Russ .................. I admire your work , you are a true credit to the coin world. You seem to have tremendous insight and unparralled numismatic knowledge !! Truly , you are good - REAL good !!
i'm not saying squat about the buff image - but a picture IS worth a thousand words !!

K6AZ · January 3, 2005 1:10PM

That's not Wayte Raymond toning Russ.

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 1:12PM

BINGO !!

Russ · January 3, 2005 1:12PM

<< That's not Wayte Raymond toning Russ. >>

I have no idea what type of toning it is. It's the PR69 Buffalo from the PCGS grading guide that is rumored to be the work of the aforementioned Chicago coin doctor.

Russ, NCNE

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 1:18PM

Russ -
when you are a trail blazer ; your gonna get some arrows shot at you !
this thread needs to drop from the top -buried in the archievs .............and like Uncle Ernie's " fiddling about" - will not be discussed about ever again

K6AZ · January 3, 2005 1:23PM

<< 

<< That's not Wayte Raymond toning Russ. >>

I have no idea what type of toning it is. It's the PR69 Buffalo from the PCGS grading guide that is rumored to be the work of the aforementioned Chicago coin doctor.

Russ, NCNE >>

OK, in the text you quoted it was referring to Wayte Raymond type AT'ed Buffs. If that coin is the work of that particular doctor, he wasn't trying to duplicate Wayte Raymond toning, at least not on that coin.

BAJJERFAN · January 3, 2005 1:40PM

<< some of the coins CHANGE over time due to the process of using nobel gases to tone them !! >>

So please explain how a non-reactive noble gas like helium or Argon can tone a coin.

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 1:58PM

...................jeezeee.....................the guy tries to duplicate whatever gets past the graders and looks spectacular !! i doubt he can predict the outcome of any one "job" .....and suppose for the sake of argument that the Wayte Raymond look is just one of the "LOOKS" he strives to reproduce , suppose i wasn't crystal clear in making my point -

hell , let's just say it's all a bad dream ............. that i'm full of sheet and it's all a crock of bull

.
as for how he does it - he's one of a handfull of people on earth that can " do " it ................ I doubt very seriously he would make common knowledge his methods..............
can't we all just get over it and let this thread go ???

K6AZ · January 3, 2005 2:04PM

<< ...................jeezeee.....................the guy tries to duplicate whatever gets past the graders and looks spectacular !! i doubt he can predict the outcome of any one "job" .....and suppose for the sake of argument that the Wayte Raymond look is just one of the "LOOKS" he strives to reproduce , suppose i wasn't crystal clear in making my point -

hell , let's just say it's all a bad dream ............. that i'm full of sheet and it's all a crock of bull

.
as for how he does it - he's one of a handfull of people on earth that can " do " it ................ I doubt very seriously he would make common knowledge his methods..............
can't we all just get over it and let this thread go ??? >>

Can someone translate this into English please?

RYK · January 3, 2005 2:05PM

Supercarcoins:

I am beginning to get suspicious of you. Show us your preciousss.

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 2:08PM

you guy's wanna beat someone up thats trying to enlighten you ? go ahead then -i removed my posts .you win

RYK · January 3, 2005 2:10PM

I'm just

ing around. Frankly, I was interested in what you had to say before the Smeagal tangent.

Reece · January 3, 2005 2:12PM

I am with RYK I do not know the known coin doctors-I suppose Mark that you do not want to name a few??? It might help some of us to take a second look-if you know what I mean.!!

coolkarma · January 3, 2005 2:19PM

Good timing! Last week I sent three coins back to PCGS: 1967 MS66 DCam 25c, 1967 MS65 DCam 10c, and 1953 PR65 DCam 1c. PCGS looked at all three and graded them as indicated. For the first two, the dealer actually resubmitted them because he thought they were undergraded so PCGS got a second look at them. I bought them direct from the submitting dealers. All three have the obverse frost painted on them. They were "doctored". The PCGS graders couldn't tell, the dealers couldn't tell, and I couldn't tell. After owing the coins for about a year, I became suspicious. Even now if you look at the coins straight on, they look lovely, perfect. However, under strong lighting conditions (e.g., if you take a digital image), they look a little odd. And if you tilt them to the side a great deal, you see something very unnatural looking. The quality of the paint changes over time and you can begin to see the doctor's work. I also believe the paint changes more quickly the more it is exposed to light.

To answer your questions, I'd want some evidence, not just rumors, before I would avoid a dealer for a sale or a purchase. I have dealt with both of the dealers involved with these coins after I knew the coins were doctored. I don't believe they are doctors. They both buy raw cameos and I think they were fooled, just as PCGS and I were. Why would a coin doctor take the risk of submitting the coins a second time?

BAJJERFAN · January 3, 2005 2:19PM

Well you made a statement about noble gases that any chemist would find hard to believe. So I just asked you to explain it if you had the knowledge to do so. Perhaps the noble gas is actully used as a carrier gas or dilutent for trace levels of toning agents.

SUPERCARCOINS · January 3, 2005 2:30PM

<< Well you made a statement about noble gases that any chemist would find hard to believe. So I just asked you to explain it if you had the knowledge to do so. Perhaps the noble gas is actully used as a carrier gas or dilutent for trace levels of toning agents. >>

dude - you keep right on fishing

an artist uses paintbrushes , and some are made from camel hair - but you don't see many masterpieces done by packaderms now do ya' ??

michael · January 3, 2005 3:01PM

Hypothetical #1 : You have a group of PCGS coins for sale and learn that you can get top dollar (a minimum of 5% more than anyone else will pay) from a coin dealer who is widely rumored (here or elsewhere) to be a coin doctor....

Would you sell your coins to him? +++++++++NO+++++++++++

Would it matter, if before you made your decision, you somehow learned that if he buys your coins, he will doctor one or more of them in an effort to get a higher grade at PCGS?
+++still would not sell to him+++

Would it have any effect on your decision, whether he seemed/acted like a nice guy or a jerk?
+++ still would not sell to him++++

Hypothetical #2 : You are at a coin show and ready to buy a fairly priced, great looking PCGS coin from a dealer. Your pulse is racing in anticipation and you are ready to write the check. But, you suddenly remember you had heard widespread rumors that the dealer is a coin doctor and has had great success doctoring coins and getting them to upgrade.

Would you look at the coin differently? +++ yes i would look at it more carefully+++

Would you still buy it? +++if it looked original no question to me yes+++

To any of you who would do business as usual in the above situations, what, if anything, would it take with respect to thinking or knowing the dealer was a coin doctor, to cause you not to do business with him?

Please note, these are hypothetical situations presented for the sake of (hopeful) interest, discussion and possible (good mannered) debate.

-------------------------

Elcontador · January 3, 2005 6:55PM

Hypothetical #1 : You have a group of PCGS coins for sale and learn that you can get top dollar (a minimum of 5% more than anyone else will pay) from a coin dealer who is widely rumored (here or elsewhere) to be a coin doctor....Would you sell your coins to him?

Would it matter, if before you made your decision, you somehow learned that if he buys your coins, he will doctor one or more of them in an effort to get a higher grade at PCGS?

Mark, if my sources tell me that this guy is a coin doctor, I wouldn't have anything to do with him, period. I don't care how he treats me. IMO, these people are evil. Practically speaking, if a doctor is willing to pay me a premium for my coin, I'd check into the possibilities of an upgrade with some people I know & trust. I don't want his "thirty pieces of silver."

Hypothetical #2 : You are at a coin show and ready to buy a fairly priced, great looking PCGS coin from a dealer. Your pulse is racing in anticipation and you are ready to write the check. But, you suddenly remember you had heard widespread rumors that the dealer is a coin doctor and has had great success doctoring coins and getting them to upgrade.

Would you look at the coin differently? Would you still buy it?

Mark, again, I will not knowingly do business with these people. A good 'doctor' can fool the TPGs long enough to get the doctored coin into the holder. Okay, say the coin turns in the holder and PCGS / NGC makes good on their grade guarantee. Do you really want to have to deal with this? I sure don't want to go there.

Many of the best of us do not spot this sort of coin in time. Ask Laura about this...

morgannut2 · January 3, 2005 10:14PM

I have bought 2 doctored coins, and the answer is I wouldn't even speak to either dealer again. Everyone keeps saying buy the coin not the holder and it's foolish to pay a small premium for and old PCGS holder. Well wait until that silver paint starts to chage color, or the pretty blue at the edges starts going black and flakes off in places. It's much easier to see 10 year old doctoring in those old holders, and I think many of these guys are so good you can't see it on their best new stuff.

The one advantage collectors have that graders don't is plenty of time to examine coins at all angles/light sources to "pick up"
a questionable area of a "doctored coin". On gold or proofs, you really need a top grader-dealer agent working for you, if
you're not 100% sure of your own abilities.

UncleJoe · January 3, 2005 10:50PM

I will be totally honest:

Would you sell your coins to him? YES

For the most part, I do not collect many coins that might be of interest to coin doctors and even if I did, if I have a coin for sale, it is for sale to the highest bidder. I don't worry myself about the buyer's real or imagined reputation (except his/her ability to pay). When it is the buyer's coin, he/she can do what ever they want with the coin. (I wonder if coin collectors worried about what was happening to Roman coins?)

Would you look at the coin differently? Would you still buy it? YES (only in a PCGS holder)

I do not know anything near everything there is possible to be known about coin collecting. I ASSUME that the graders at PCGS have seen a lot more and know a lot more than I do (otherwise how can you explain the premium paid for PCGS holdered coins). The threads written here about how you are still supposed to be an expert before buying a PCGS holdered coin IMO are ridiculous. I am paying for their knowledge and expertise and expect to be made whole if they screw-up royally.

Joe.

JadeRareCoin · January 3, 2005 11:04PM

Do we really know who the coin doctors are? Have you ever seen Dirty Rotten Scoundrels (Steve Martin, Michael Caine)? Caine's right hand man was informing him of a new con artist who was working the French Riviera. He showed Caine a newspaper article that told about "The Jackal", a dangerous American con-man who was working the area. The right-hand-man seemed very concerned that the new con man would interfer with their business. They didn't want any competition. Caine laughingly said to his guy, "Don't worrry. If he's so good, then he wouldn't be in the newspaper, now would he?". Something like that. The point? The point is that some of the BEST coin doctors are not known to you or me, but there work is out there. In my analogy, Caine was the better con-man because nobody knew that he was a con. Coincidentally, the BEST con in that movie was the sweet, innocent "tourist" lady who, in the end, scammed both Martin and Caine. Nobody ever saw it coming. When we buy coins from any dealer, do we really know who we are dealing with?

Here's another point to ponder: what if the dealer you mentioned (the known coin doctor) just sold 25 doctored coins to a well known, highly respected, ethical dealer. Then YOU walk up and buy some coins from the ethical dealer, because YOU would NEVER do business with a known coin doctor. Wouldn't you be doing business, albeit indirectly, with a known coin doctor? The point? The point is that coins move around quickly and broadly. The longer I am in this business, the more I see coins that I have handled in the past. Some of these coins are like proverbial hot potatoes the way they pass back and forth. The product created by coin doctors is ubiquitous.

And finally..........

(this is a bit off topic, so I apologize) If everyone seems to know who this Chicago coin doctor is, then why hasn't the elite Coin Doctor Posse done anything about it? I know who he is. You know who he is. EVERYBODY does! So, again, where's the Coin Doctor Posse? What kind of credibility do they have if they cannot even stop the most obvious sitting target?

Longacre · January 3, 2005 11:12PM

I would neither sell nor buy from him. In order to be convinced that he is a true coin doctor, I would need to get the opinions of others whose opinions I respect.

morgannut2 · January 3, 2005 11:29PM

I LOVED that movie JADE, especially the end where she shows up at the villa with the fake NY accent. The answer to the
famed doctor problem is that that he can't be stopped---only his work can be recognised and that's tough with a few seconds per coin and all the TPG backlog. All the guy has to do is use non-collector agents joining the PCGS/NGC collector clubs and submit all the coins he wants. Then submit to the auction houses for sale. At best he could be banned from ANA events,
but there would have to be a full hearing of some sort, rather than speculation (sort of a Nevada Casino Commission Blacklist procedure). Even then, how long would it be before he had an agent buying/selling in his place? Again, your best protection is an informed dealer-agent helping assemble your set, or to stick to circulated coins you can evaluate, and doctors don't nowadays like to fool with (except old gold).

dorkkarl · January 3, 2005 11:43PM

the most pathetic part of this whole argument is the premise that "coin doctor" somehow means "bad". nowhere has ANYBODY shown that coin doctoring is, in general, "bad" for the hobby. you all just make that blithe assumption, & babble pointlessly from there.

gee, maybe that's why the whole "coin posse" idea was a bunch of baloney to begin with

K S

DHeath · January 3, 2005 11:59PM

Mark,

Addressing only point #2, I'd avoid the seller if I was suspicious. What is market acceptable today may not be in the near future as the services get more sophisticated and technology improves. Right now, beating the services is like card counting at a casino. As the cheats get better, so does the effort to thwart them. Who knows what the landscape will look like in 10-20 years.

pharmer · January 4, 2005 12:06AM

Now I know nothing about the topic, never heard of doctoring before joining this forum, just a collector who has added some pretty toners lately, but it seems to me that dipping a coin, which I have read here used to be so prevalent to get rid of toning and produce a shiny white/silver coin, might be considered doctoring also.

dthigpen · January 4, 2005 12:27AM

Nevermind, created a new thread on the topic.

MrEureka · January 4, 2005 12:39AM

nowhere has ANYBODY shown that coin doctoring is, in general, "bad" for the hobby

Anyone that knows what he is doing and looks at enough doctored coins knows that MOST doctoring is bad for the coins. I can think of many coins that I've wanted to collect (but couldn't afford) that have since been doctored. I no longer want most of these coins because they look "wrong". I wouldn't enjoy owning them at all, much less at the (usually) higher post-doctoring price. That is bad for me and bad for the hobby.

Also, doctoring is one of many methods that can be used to dupe a collector. When a collector is duped, that is bad for the hobby.

Does the above mean that all doctoring is bad? Of course not. But I know of no doctors that are currently doing only the "good" type of doctoring. In other words, there are no doctors who are blameless.

morgannut2 · January 4, 2005 12:44AM

Yes dorkcarl we all conclude ("assume") that altering coins and misrepresenting these alterations is fraud and bad for the hobby. But, it's none of anyones business what you do with, or where you personally stick your own coins.

cameoproofcoins · January 4, 2005 1:12AM

I do not deal with the guy from Chicago. It is a big concern. Some color doctoring can turn black after time passes. The idea of moving metal around with a laser is a concern also.

Russ · January 4, 2005 1:26AM

Marty lives in Chicago.

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl · January 4, 2005 1:50AM

<< nowhere has ANYBODY shown that coin doctoring is, in general, "bad" for the hobby

Anyone that knows what he is doing and looks at enough doctored coins knows that MOST doctoring is bad for the coins. I can think of many coins that I've wanted to collect (but couldn't afford) that have since been doctored. I no longer want most of these coins because they look "wrong". I wouldn't enjoy owning them at all, much less at the (usually) higher post-doctoring price. That is bad for me and bad for the hobby. >>

so my collecting paramters have to be based on what YOU think is "bad"? or what NGC says is "bad"? or what the "coin posse" says is "bad"? or what the "PNG" says is "bad"???

bite me! i think i'll just go ahead & collect what i think is acceptable, & be happy w/ that. but i'll be da_ned if i'm going to impose my beliefs on others.

<< Also, doctoring is one of many methods that can be used to dupe a collector. When a collector is duped, that is bad for the hobby. >>

why? why is it bad to sell someone something that HE LIKES?

<< Does the above mean that all doctoring is bad? Of course not. But I know of no doctors that are currently doing only the "good" type of doctoring. In other words, there are no doctors who are blameless. >>

i know of several doctors who plug holes, un-bend coins, remove deep scratches, & sell the coins as such. what's wrong w/ that? of course, they are REAL coin doctors to me, professionals, not wack-jobs w/ bar-b-cue pits in their back yard where they color toning, but the point is, i DON'T like that bar-b-cue look, so i don't buy it. but if someone else likes it, what do i care? what do YOU care???

<< Yes dorkcarl we all conclude ("assume") that altering coins and misrepresenting these alterations is fraud and bad for the hobby. But, it's none of anyones business what you do with, or where you personally stick your own coins. >>

bingo

K S

K6AZ · January 4, 2005 3:07AM

<< the most pathetic part of this whole argument is the premise that "coin doctor" somehow means "bad". nowhere has ANYBODY shown that coin doctoring is, in general, "bad" for the hobby. you all just make that blithe assumption, & babble pointlessly from there.

gee, maybe that's why the whole "coin posse" idea was a bunch of baloney to begin with

K S >>

No wonder you are so totally anti-slab. It fits.

dorkkarl · January 4, 2005 3:36AM

<< No wonder you are so totally anti-slab. It fits. >>

dude, don't be a simpleton. i'm anti-slab-HYPE.

big difference

K S

My answers/comments: Would you sell coins to and/or buy coins from a dealer who is widely rumored to

Comments

Leave a Comment