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This Modern Bashing is costing me!!!!!!!
BowTieCoins
Posts: 899
Tonight's e-bay result's 13 coins1958 to 1997 total $88.64 and thats down 900% Iam trying to decide just who's Chistmas gift's have to go back!
No really I found tonight to be a little slow but all the coins I had running are common, ms65 jeffs and ms66 lincoln's mostly. I would suggest that had they brought a total of $260.00 no crime would have been committed. Overall as a dealer money was lost tonight. But this is of no great concern. I understand that when I sell a 1958-d in ms67 Lincoln cent for close to a thousand. (I have made 9) It will make up for the time it takes to sell the 1958-d in ms66 (made over 250) A 58-d in ms66 tonight sold for $8.50. This coin averages $16.00.
I think the buyers of the coins are not givin enough credit for their understanding of value.
Some of the dates in the Lincoln memorials, have populations that have been greatly influenced by myself alone. In a few cases accounting for say 30 coins out of 70 at the top grade. As in the case of the 1958-d 9 of the 41. or 9 of the 13 added in the last 2 years. This is due too the large amount of rolls searched by myself and I am sure others could say the same
A New Thought!!; If not for dealers like myself and others, finding opportunity in this market. And filling if not flooding the market demand.
In addition bring an accuracy threw a larger sampling to the pop report. Where then would prices and value be?
Still the supply of rolls are from 20 to 60 years old that are unsearched are drying up faster than anyone expects. Then these numbers will slow to a crawl in many cases. Then the fools who purchased my coins tonight one grade under the pop top for less than I can have them slabed my not be so foolish
I am just thankful I can get $15.00 for shipping.
regards, Chris
No really I found tonight to be a little slow but all the coins I had running are common, ms65 jeffs and ms66 lincoln's mostly. I would suggest that had they brought a total of $260.00 no crime would have been committed. Overall as a dealer money was lost tonight. But this is of no great concern. I understand that when I sell a 1958-d in ms67 Lincoln cent for close to a thousand. (I have made 9) It will make up for the time it takes to sell the 1958-d in ms66 (made over 250) A 58-d in ms66 tonight sold for $8.50. This coin averages $16.00.
I think the buyers of the coins are not givin enough credit for their understanding of value.
Some of the dates in the Lincoln memorials, have populations that have been greatly influenced by myself alone. In a few cases accounting for say 30 coins out of 70 at the top grade. As in the case of the 1958-d 9 of the 41. or 9 of the 13 added in the last 2 years. This is due too the large amount of rolls searched by myself and I am sure others could say the same
A New Thought!!; If not for dealers like myself and others, finding opportunity in this market. And filling if not flooding the market demand.
In addition bring an accuracy threw a larger sampling to the pop report. Where then would prices and value be?
Still the supply of rolls are from 20 to 60 years old that are unsearched are drying up faster than anyone expects. Then these numbers will slow to a crawl in many cases. Then the fools who purchased my coins tonight one grade under the pop top for less than I can have them slabed my not be so foolish
I am just thankful I can get $15.00 for shipping.
regards, Chris
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no wonder .............. bad time for auctions to end on eBay anyway.
<< <i> A 58-d in ms66 tonight sold for $8.50 >>
If I could get that kind of money for a PCGS or NGC coin, I'd be sitting pretty.
I can't complain though, I was able to dump this dog on an unsuspecting rube for $8
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
<< <i>
<< <i> A 58-d in ms66 tonight sold for $8.50 >>
If I could get that kind of money for a PCGS or NGC coin, I'd be sitting pretty.
I can't complain though, I was able to dump this dog on an unsuspecting rube for $8
ah but I know you soaked him on shipping.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I have no doubt that "modern bashing" here over the last few days was not responsible for your drop in sales over the Christmas holidays. More likely, it was that many people who normally would be were not engaged in buying coins over the holiday weekend.
I think the buyers of the coins are not givin enough credit for their understanding of value.
That is the typical line given by the some dealers in modern coins who, as Bill so eloquently stated in another thread, feel that no price is too high to pay for a common coin (especially when they are on the receiving end). I like it a lot better when when Russ admittedly sells a coin "for an obscene profit" and leaves it at that.
Value can be found in all kinds of coins, old and new, but you should not need a registry or pop reports to show you where it is.
<< <i>I promised myself I would stay out of this...
I have no doubt that "modern bashing" here over the last few days was not responsible for your drop in sales over the Christmas holidays. More likely, it was that many people who normally would be were not engaged in buying coins over the holiday weekend.
I think the buyers of the coins are not givin enough credit for their understanding of value.
That is the typical line given by the some dealers in modern coins who, as Bill so eloquently stated in another thread, feel that no price is too high to pay for a common coin (especially when they are on the receiving end). I like it a lot better when when Russ admittedly sells a coin "for an obscene profit" and leaves it at that.
Value can be found in all kinds of coins, old and new, but you should not need a registry or pop reports to show you where it is. >>
I suspect the thread is somewhat tongue in cheek. In the short run modern bashing is always
injurious to the coins. The bashing tends to take place when someone is buying or considering
buying a coin or is starting a collection. When his neighborhood dealer tells him the coins are
crap or common as dirt many people will simply walk away or look at different coins. When long
established professionals tell him that there is no price too low for a modern then the amount
he's willing to pay just might go down below market and his collection stop.
In the long run however the modern bashing may be even more beneficial to the hobby than ig-
noring these coins for two generations was. Buyers already have to be motivated because few
dealers offer the coins, but being constantly told that the coins are crap weeds out the less pass-
ionate and more importantly focuses a lot of attention on the coins. People always respond more
to what is controversial than to the more mundane. As has been said many times "there's no such
thing as bad press".
quote added
<< <i>I am just thankful I can get $15.00 for shipping. >>
I don't have anything to say concerning the rest of your post, as while I have very few high grade moderns that are slabbed in my personal collection, I believe they are just as collectable as any coins; after all, they'll be classic someday. At first I thought that you charged $15 on shipping a coin and my eyes bugged out, I then went to ebay and saw that you charged <$4 on your auctions and realized that you this winner just must have won a lot of lots and you decided not to combine shipping.
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That is the typical line given by the some dealers in modern coins who, as Bill so eloquently stated in another thread, feel that no price is too high to pay for a common coin (especially when they are on the receiving end). I like it a lot better when when Russ admittedly sells a coin "for an obscene profit" and leaves it at that.
Value can be found in all kinds of coins, old and new, but you should not need a registry or pop reports to show you where it is.
hey Robert
the only trouble with statements like those is that they absolutely reek with bias. humorously, you have referred to a statement by a dealer who is perhaps one of our most outspoken members concerning the ongoing modern/classic debate. he could easily be called the antithesis to cladking!!! that was the whole point to my Mock Thread where i simply switched "classic" for "modern" and some didn't even realize it was a parody. there was truth which showed through.
i can generally wade my way through the muck and mire of the Great Debate, understanding the arguements of bith sides and even championing my points. what i find as a common thread is a single point which you and BillJones may agree with and may even identify with:
It's always best to speak from a position of experience, to talk about what I know and not what I think. To that end, most all hard core anti-modernists have never really waded into that treacherous Modern domian and searched enthusiastically for the coins they denigrate. e.g.---It's easy to find fault with a collector who pays a steep premium for a well struck and nicely toned 1982-D Washington Quarter in a PCGS MS67 holder because they made so many of them. But when was the last time you looked for one?? It's easy to criticize a collector for paying "Moon Money" for a 1963-D Jefferson Nickel graded PCGS MS67FS because they made so many of the coins that there are bound to be many of them, they just need to be found.
My challenge is simple, to you and Bill-----spend the next year searching for either of those two coins. Remember, there are lots out there, find them. Next Christmas you can share your findings with us, but I already have a good idea what those findings will be because I've already done my own searching. As a result, I would never criticize a collector of either.
Let's look at some other interesting coins to help you both understand my position. Select any denomination/date Dahlonega gold coin. I would absolutely never comment on any aspect of them save for what I think of the appearance of the coin. I have no experience in that area of Numismatics, no experience. Another would be an 1805 Half-Cent, which I can comment on because I've searched for them myself and unsuccessfully worked want lists with a couple of dealers. They are tough to locate in attractive and honest to goodness XF-AU grades, worthy of whatever premium the seller might want.
My point is simple----speaking past your experience is foolish. You and BillJones do that repeatedly with Modern Coinage, speak past your experience. It's OK to have likes and dislikes, but it doesn't seem to serve anyone well when bias comes clothed in personal preference disguised as "warning newbie collectors" about the dangers of an area-----an area you have limited knowledge at best of. Ignorance can be damaging.
al h.
I've noticed a drop on the price of MS66 Red later date Lincolns, I bought a group of MS66 red 2004's in PCGS slabs for about $6 each. These coins if in an earlier date (say from the 70's) would be MS68's-69's. I can see where dealers who slab would get tired of the low grades currently given. But hey, I guess that means more PCGS for me (LOL).
Lou
ANA Life-Member
<< <i>common, ms65 jeffs and ms66 lincoln's >>
That's when I figured out that this is a parody thread.
You've hooked several responders here who didn't get the joke. Now, you only have to reel them in.
Either that, or the ebayers figured they could get the same coins in pocket change for face value.
Mike
holdered Jeffersons in MS65 and Lincolns in MS66 are common and not worth much of a premium, so it probably isn't a fishing trip. Jeffersons generally start to command a premium at MS66FS and Lincolns at MS67RD. that starts to move up a grade for both series when we get to the mid 90's simply because the coins were searched for immediately upon issue or at least close enough to time of issue that nicer examples were available. most recently MS68-69RD Lincolns have been found and even MS68 Jeffersons. had these rolls/Mint Sets/bags been allowed to sit for a decade the grades would lower.
al h.
I will take your challenge and spend the next year looking for those two coins. I glanced at the pop reports and both coins appear to be condition rarities. It will be a fun and educational experience for all of us.
I stand by my statement, however, that you should not need a pop report and registry to tell you what coins are rare and desirable. Absent these, would collectors feel the need to find an 82-D in MS-67, or might they be satisfied with a high end attractive MS-66?
Robert
I may be out of the norm but I would go for the MS67 if I could afford it. This is why
Keets is right, you can't find the MS-67 82 or 83, P or D, Washingtons in 67 very often
Robert, I can honestly tell you just don't get this, and it's a the root of your belief. As PCGS defines the standard in clad Washingtons, an MS65 is an ugly coin. It will have obvious ticks or subdued luster. An MS66 is IMO an acceptable coin, but not PQ. An MS67 is a nice coin. I'm glad you'll spend some time looking.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
hey Robert
any Washington collector should be able to answer that question better than me. this much i know, though, and so should you----no Mint Sets were issued that year and collectors really had no warning. Remember, no internet and probably no regular mailings from the Mint or knowledge like we have today about when the Mint starts making each denomination and assembling the sets/issuing them. the result was that for 1982 the coins were only available in rolls and by the time that fact was widely known, the attrition was well under way.
with the Jefferson, even though the roll craze had swept through the hobby, it was starting to wane and the Mint itself was starting to hunker down into secrecy mode about what they were doing, attempting to thwart collectors who were hoarding entire mintages!!!!. at the same time, there were already Full Step collectors, though the formation of the PAK club---a Full Step predecessor---was still over a decade away. the point is, the coins were saved, looked at and not found. now they're being searched again, at least the ones that still exist in purported "original and unsearched" condition.
pop reports are just a tool, at least for me. granted, some may lean a bit heavily on them but that's just because they're available. look at your gold, you most likely don't rely on a report for making a purchase, but you certainly know that for a certain date/MM combination only a certain number were struck, only a certain number have been graded by PCGS/NGC, and since you're buying in VF-AU you probably have a good idea how many exist in certain grades and what is a reasonable grade expectation for your chosen date/MM. i'd bet you even have a ballpark starting price which goes up/down dependent on eye appeal, right??
dang it, i think we may collect similarly, cut from the same cloth so-to-speak.
al h.
R Y K: If you could ever put a lincoln cent from 1960 to 1967 in a pcgs ms67 slab, I will forever refer to you as the Lincoln cent god.
Regards, Chris
Robert, I can honestly tell you just don't get this
Don, that is 100% correct. I don't, but I am willing to learn.
Al, quite honestly, I rarely use pop reports for my purchases. A pop report is among the least valuable resources when hunting for circulated D and O gold and $3's because of how inaccurate they are. I use Winter's books, personal communications with Winter and "Dahlonega", recent auction history, recent dealer inventory history, and other such resources considerably more than pop reports.
<< <i>I don't like the current lack of a secondary dealer market however, like more established issues have. I'd rather do my taxes than open an Ebay account to sell the stuff. >>
That's one of the MAJOR points.
There are a lot of "one way" "Roach Motel" (You can check-in, but it's hard to check out with your money) to this stuff.
Most of us normal dealers are happy to get 10 to 25 % mark-ups. These guys love to brag about how they make 1,000 times what they paid for something. If I were a one of their customers, I would not be too pleased with that. Most people don't like to told that they are patsies.
<< <i>This Modern Bashing is costing me!!!!!!! >>
I see no need to mouth words of agreement with you simply so you can make money on the backs of the unwary.
TeMost of us normal dealers are happy to get 10 to 25 % mark-ups. These guys love to brag about how they make 100 times what they paid for something. If I were a one of their customers, I would not be too pleased with that. Most people don't like to be patsies. :
xt
I will buy, or trade for any coin I deal in. And would be more than happy to make 10-25% in doing so. Just purchased 6, 1962 ms66 Lincoln cent my cost $35.00 each.Will sell with shipping included at $45.....If Spending 50 hours a week searching rolls and sending coins off to pcgs. I think it fair to expect more.....Further more, When finally I recieve a better pop top. Would you expect me to sell this at say half the currant market value... This makes no sense at all.
<< <i>Al, as always, you are correct. (I dare you to go back and find a thread in which I disagreed with you
I will take your challenge and spend the next year looking for those two coins. I glanced at the pop reports and both coins appear to be condition rarities. It will be a fun and educational experience for all of us.
I stand by my statement, however, that you should not need a pop report and registry to tell you what coins are rare and desirable. Absent these, would collectors feel the need to find an 82-D in MS-67, or might they be satisfied with a high end attractive MS-66?
Robert >>
Good luck. You'll find the '82-D Washington tough to locate at all except in circulation
and even AU's are getting decidedly tough there. When you do find an AU it will usually
be struck from misaligned dies and have unnatural wear from having more collisions than
from being rubbed against other coins and counters. Nice XF's aren't too difficult but don't
expect much more.
Uncs of all the '82 and '83 coins are fairly tough but the '82-D quarter is one of the easier
ones because an entire pallet of them were found at the Kansas City fed around 1986.
There were at least some gems in this pallet even though there were apparently none
of the "common" type "d" reverse coins in it. This variety is quite common in circulation, but
scarce in unc. Still it will require a lot of work to find coins to check. The rolls are rarely a-
vailable for less than $100 or so and they are not easily found. If there was the kind of de-
mand for these coins that there is for the older coins then there would probably be no rolls
at ll available.
There was plenty of warning that the mint wouldn't produce mint sets in 1982. This caused
a large increase in the number of coins set aside but most people didn't pay much attention
because very few people had any interest in current coin in 1982. While the percentage in-
crease in setting aside new issues was very large the absolute number was still very small.
Try finding original rolls of the earlier issues if you don't believe this. Most of the rolls you see
offered* are assembled from mint sets. The mint set rolls are generally very good quality (com-
pared to the alternative), but they don't contain varieties because most varieties were never
issued in mint sets. They also tend to usually be picked over for gems. While these '82 and '83
issues were saved in larger numbers their attrition has been much larger right from the start
because those assembling sets break up mint sets for the other dates and have to seek rolls
and singles for these two. The souvenir sets from these years had mintages between ten and
twenty thousand and have even higher attrition rates since choice coins are a little more easily
found from the souvenir sets.
Many people will look at dealers' stock to search for choice or gem coins of these date. While
this is sometimes an effective way one should exercise care. There are substantial numbers
of sliders and AU's in dealers' stock. This is because it was known early on that these were
tough in unc so there were people who pulled nice coins from circulation in the mid '80's. These
are sometimes about the only ones available so they are offered. Don't pay BU price unless the
coin is very choice or type "d". You can usually get a little break on these if you point out that
the coin is only AU. Most of the coins available from this source have been checked and there
has been no fresh supply for most dealers in many years.
You can occasionally find rolls offered for sale and if they aren't put together rolls there will be an
excellent chance there will be a few choice coins included. Gems are a little more problematical.
If you get discouraged just think, "Well, at least I'm not looking for the '82-P"
* You'll only rarely see any rolls offered.
That's one of the MAJOR points.
There are a lot of "one way" "Roach Motel" (You can check-in, but it's hard to check out with your money) to this stuff.
Most of us normal dealers are happy to get 10 to 25 % mark-ups. These guys love to brag about how they make 100 times what they paid for something. If I were a one of their customers, I would not be too pleased with that. Most people don't like to be patsies. translation: sour grapes!!! if you were one of their customers you'd pony up, quit whining and be grateful they found the coins that you couldn't. but wait a minute, you wouldn't say that because it would be a bald-faced lie---you've probably never done much more than give moderns a cursory glance.
upon examination, the picture brightens. let's look at this example.
Mr. Dealer walks around the bourse floor before the collectors are allowed in and finds a nice coin that he buys at $500. he then resells it for a 20% profit, making $100 for his trouble. his attendant costs are taken into account.
Mr. Modern Crap-buyer looks through most every Mint/Proof set at all the shows he attends during 2004 and finds a verry choice 1968-D Jefferson Nickel with a step count of 4-3-2-3 which he gets slabbed at MS66 by PCGS using the economy service. (Please excuse any math incorrections, i'm going ballpark!!) he had paid $4.50 for the set, about $15 for the submission including shipping both ways, and assuming it sells at $250 he'll pay about $10 in eBay listing fees to bring his total investment to approximately $30. the profit is $220. his attendant costs are taken into account
why is one guy doing something bad??
why would one criticize the other??
does the collector realize everything that goes into the dealer's efforts during the year?
does the dealer realize everything that goes into the collector's efforts during the year?
does either begrudge the other his profit?
very interesting, and you didn't even get to see what i deleted before i posted this!!
al h.
<< <i>I stand by my statement, however, that you should not need a pop report and registry to tell you what coins are rare and desirable. >>
I don't need the pop report to tell me that high grade Accented Hairs are difficult and high grade DCAM examples nearly impossible. I don't need the pop report to tell me that DCAM SMS Lincolns are extremely rare. I don't need the pop report to tell me that 1964 through 1970-D business strike Kennedys in MS68 practically don't exist. I don't need the pop report to tell me that 1960's era Jeffersons have wheel chair ramps instead of steps.
I know all that because I've spent countless hours searching for these coins.
When a full time moderns dealer does make a condition rarity and sells it in to the market at what the market has decided the coin is worth, they've earned every damned cent of that sale because they worked their ass off searching thousands of coins to find those few that actually result in a substantial payoff.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>These guys love to brag about how they make 1,000 times what they paid for something. If I were a one of their customers, I would not be too pleased with that. Most people don't like to told that they are patsies. >>
Bill,
Here's a clue for you: Moderns collectors know what the coins originally cost. They also know just how damned difficult some issues are. They're not quite as stupid as you think they are.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't like the current lack of a secondary dealer market however, like more established issues have. I'd rather do my taxes than open an Ebay account to sell the stuff. >>
That's one of the MAJOR points.
There are a lot of "one way" "Roach Motel" (You can check-in, but it's hard to check out with your money) to this stuff.
Most of us normal dealers are happy to get 10 to 25 % mark-ups. These guys love to brag about how they make 1,000 times what they paid for something. If I were a one of their customers, I would not be too pleased with that. Most people don't like to told that they are patsies.
<< <i>This Modern Bashing is costing me!!!!!!! >>
I see no need to mouth words of agreement with you simply so you can make money on the backs of the unwary. >>
After hiding one's true coolors for months, this is a very telling post.
The first "quote" does not even appear in this thread. It is the author's. The answer to the final
quote shows that he knows that all moderns are simply a way to rip off the unwary.
BillJones obviously believes that no price is too low for any modern and won't hesitate to tell people.
If someone had told me when I started that the best I could do was a 1000% profit, I'd have gone
into a different area. Fortunately the profit on many of the coins I've found will be far higher.
Correct, it is very easy to get a one sided view of moderns. Some people only see the occasional high dollar sale and have no idea how hard it is to get some of those coins. While it is true that pops can go way up on certain issues, the astute modern collector knows which issues are likely to rise in the pops and which issues are likely to rise very little.
<< <i>Maybe I am the only one who finds this thread confusing, what's difference if a dealer buys a rare coin (defined as non-modern) for low $20K's and has it for sale for mid $40K's? >>
I think some people feel that making a 25% profit (or even a 100% profit) is okay but making a 1000% profit is wrong. They do not take into account all the back work it took to make the large profit on that one coin.
How many hours were spent by Bowtie to make one 1958d 1c pcgs67? Finding good rolls out of the vast majority of lousy ones. Going through them coin by coin, investing the weeks, months, years of looking to get to a level of expertise to know a 67 when he finds one. Same with Russ and all the other original finders of the rarities. Now that's work. That's contributing to the hobby. That's furthering the knowledge base.
Ironic, isn't it, that the person pictured in the first paragraph has much more in common with, and looks much more like, the purchaser of the modern rarity (who he pities) than the hard working discoverer.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Let me tell you something else. I don't get this toning thing, either. I don't get this VAM thing. There are a lot of things I do not understand, many of which I do not care to understand, some of which I am not smart enough to understand, and some of which I am too lazy to take the time to understand.
What I do understand is that everyone has the right to collect coins (beer bottles, baseball cards, peep show tokens, or whatever) and enjoy their hobby any way they want to.
Dealers have the right to charge whatever the market will bear for their product, so long as they do not misrepresent the product or otherwise defraud the buyer. Good dealers, in both, will offer a two-way market and be fair to their customers when buying and selling.
Just like modern coin prices might go down over time, ask someone who recently purchased an MS-63 1865-S $20 what has happenned to the value of their coin in the last year.
Enough rambling for now...I have to give Cladking, who is as scholarly about his discussion of coins as anyone else around here is, an opportunity to find fault with my conclusions!
Chris
<< <i>Just like modern coin prices might go down over time, ask someone who recently purchased an MS-63 1865-S $20 what has happenned to the value of their coin in the last year >>
Any statement can be disassembled if one really wants to do it.
While many moderns have had dramatic drops at times, one shouldn't lose sight
of the fact that the average collectible modern has been increasing at a very high
rate since the late '70's and that the term "collectible modern" has been expanding
to include more existing and new coins.
no need to be so tough on yourself, a simple UNCLE will probably suffice!!!
what i think is at the root of much of the disagreement, confusion and angst is simple. with Classic coins the extant populations are seen as very limited, probably all searched with the gems cherrypicked, each series is closed, pricing is somewhat set, the coins are often plagued and in various grades and to find "fresh" material is very, very difficult. all this can be viewed as limiting oppurtunity.
Moderns are an almost opposite in every way. most of the series' are continuing onward with each years issue bringing new material, the supply of even 20-50 year old coins is mistakenly supposed to be perpetual, new and unsearched material can be found easily(sometimes), prices can be volatile in both directions, the abundance of coins supposes that gems are the rule rather than the exception and the result is stiff competition.
the "fly in the ointment" is that new collectors generally enter at the Modern level. this pre-supposes that money is being siphoned away from the Classic segment. that may be true at the entry level for a brief period but any collector who stays eventually moves backward. the examples here at the forum are legion. even us guys that you flatter as "Modernistas" collect Classic coins, we just don't broadcast that news as much. my way of thinking, if i might use Russ as an example is this:
the question---when does 5+5=2??
the answer---everytime he makes two SMS DCAM Jeffersons and uses the profit for a sweet 2 Center!!
many classic collectors don't "get" this point. if Modern issues are abundant and sell for huge profit, it behooves me why those collectors aren't out there searching. instead, they choose to engage in the debate. baffling!!
al h.
When the big time modern coin dealers who sell these coins for big prices on the Internet pay $750.00 for a table at major shows, start showing their wares and start getting these prices from people who know what they are doing, I'll have more respect for them. So far I've not seen any that that breed at the major shows. I see "classic coins" selll at the shows and major auctions for mega bucks, but I've seen darn few Lincoln memorial cents do that. And the couple of mega grade moderns that I had on consignment from customers were slow sellers at prices that were a lot less than I hear around here.
Most of the dealers I know have no faith in these high priced moderns. Why should I be any different? In fact I probably think that these coins are worth more than those dealers would give them credit. I agree that you need to scout a lot rolls to find nice modern coins because the things are often poorly made. Still when there are mint sets available, the search should be THAT hard.
<< <i>I could care less about the money being siphoned from the "classic market." There is more than enough demand out there if you have the material. When concerns me is the raping of new collectors who get soured on the hobby because they got screwed by their lust to top the "poor man's" modern registry. Topping the classic coin registry is strictly a mega rich mans' game. >>
Many collectors merely seek the finest examples of what they collect. Why should
those who can't afford classic rarities in the finest condition collect the moderns in
any less condition? Are they lesser people because they don't collect classics? Are
their collections less valuable or are they less worthy?
<< <i>
When the big time modern coin dealers who sell these coins for big prices on the Internet pay $750.00 for a table at major shows, start showing their wares and start getting these prices from people who know what they are doing, I'll have more respect for them. So far I've not seen any that that breed at the major shows. I see "classic coins" selll at the shows and major auctions for mega bucks, but I've seen darn few Lincoln memorial cents do that. And the couple of mega grade moderns that I had on consignment from customers were slow sellers at prices that were a lot less than I hear around here. >>
Moderns are a niche market. This means prices are lower and buyers are fewer. $750
would eat into the entire stock of most people who deal in moderns. How are they to
pay this price to set up at a show that will provide very few customers?
<< <i>
Most of the dealers I know have no faith in these high priced moderns. Why should I be any different? In fact I probably think that these coins are worth more than those dealers would give them credit. I agree that you need to scout a lot rolls to find nice modern coins because the things are often poorly made. Still when there are mint sets available, the search should be THAT hard. >>
Many old time dealers have no interest in these markets and very little faith in the coins.
They don't stock them and if offered one will tend to decline or offer a small percentage
of what they believe is current market. This is hardly surprising that they won't pay top
dollar for something which with they are not familiar and for which they have no custo-
mers. Most ill not even check the raw moderns they get "stuck" with for gems and var-
ieties. BUT they do not define the market for the coins. When someone tries to sell a
modern to them and gets blown out of the water it does not mean there's a one way mar-
ket. If they unknowingly sell valuable rare moderns for a fraction of their value it doesn't
mean the coins are common or worthless.
As I've said many times, those who are warning the new collectors off of moderns may be
hurting themselves more than anyone else. Yes, there are some warnings that are very much
appropriate and are likely to help some newbies in the short or long run. BUT in twenty years
most collectors who are active will have gotten their starts in states quarters or other moderns.
These collectors will not have the same ideas about clad coins that older collectors do. They
will not see debased garbage, they'll see a utilitarian coin that was ignored and mocked for gen-
erations. They may or may not have any interest in collecting it, but if they don't it won't be
because they consider it crap. The largest determinant of the size of the collector base will be
how many people get "stuck" to coin collecting from collecting these moderns. The old expression
that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar comes to mind.
Go ahead and warn people off of paying ridiculous prices for common coins, but keep in mind you
might be wrong about just how common a coin is and that this can be done in a way more designed
to catch flies than drive them off.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
The Greysheet ( CDN) lists a bid and ask, every 2 weeks, of over 500 different modern coins, including $1 Silver Commems, $5 gold commems, Proof Gold Eagles, Proof Silver Eagles and more.
TENS of Millions of dollars of these moderns trade each year among dealers active in THESE markets.
Let take Proof Gold Eagles, as an example.
Greysheet bid is $1070 for a 4 coin PR Set.
I will buy any you want to sell at $1,010 per set.
I will sell you the same items at $1,100 per set.
95-W Silver Eagles. GS Bid is $2,725 for a raw coin. I will buy up to 50 at $2600. I will sell at $2800
PCGS PR69 95-W Silver Eagles- buy up to 50 at $2850.
Sell, when in stock, at $3100
For Dealers that actually buy and sell these coins, whether raw or in PCGS holders, these 500+ items trade every day at established ,PUBLISHED price ranges.
Are there moderns where the market is thinner than these? Of course.
Just as there are more esoteric areas in Classic Coinage.
The modern market is a thriving, vital market.
The U.S. Mint has sold almost 750,000 Proof Silver Eagles for 2004.
Last year, they sold out of the 750,000 they minted.
Think about that. Seven Hundred and Fifty Thousand Proof Silver Eagles, in ONE Year.
The Combined U.S. Mint sales of Proof Sets, both Clad and Silver, Proof Silver Eagles, Proof Plat Eagles, Proof Gold Eagles, Modern commems, and Mint Sets, add up to over 100 Million Dollars In Sales Each Year.
And, these items have a 2 way market-some higher than Mint Issue price and some lower.
But, it is a 2 way market for Hundreds of Millions of Dollars worth of Moderns.
I hope the above information clears up some of the misinformation presented in some threads on moderns.
Wondercoin
this is the other pathetic arguement you always use that is pure speculative BS, that new collectors leave after they get burned by Moderns. it goes unsaid that it never happens with classic coinage, right, and nothing is ever put forward to prove the point.
it's pure crap.
al h.
When the big time modern coin dealers who sell these coins for big prices on the Internet pay $750.00 for a table at major shows, start showing their wares and start getting these prices from people who know what they are doing, I'll have more respect for them. So far I've not seen any that that breed at the major shows. I see "classic coins" selll at the shows and major auctions for mega bucks, but I've seen darn few Lincoln memorial cents do that. And the couple of mega grade moderns that I had on consignment from customers were slow sellers at prices that were a lot less than I hear around here.
Most of the dealers I know have no faith in these high priced moderns. Why should I be any different? In fact I probably think that these coins are worth more than those dealers would give them credit. I agree that you need to scout a lot rolls to find nice modern coins because the things are often poorly made. Still when there are mint sets available, the search should be THAT hard. >>
l & C, DLRC both make a two way market
It only takes 750.00 to gain your respect. Money would not do it for me. Courtesy is a start.
Most of the dealers I know have no faith in these high priced moderns. Why should I be any different?
those sellers were foolish to consign coins to a seller who isn't experienced in that area of coinage, and you performed them a disservice by not explaining that to them. they would have realized a better return with a dealer who specializes in that segment of the hobby. that's basic Numismatics101, you don't buy Morgans from a Lincoln Dealer, right??
al h.
I hope that didn't sound like modern bashing, but it seems like just as their might be bigger rewards for those of you who know what to look for, their could be bigger risks for peole interested in moderns who have zero idea what to look for.
Les
how did you learn what Classic issues are the keys in whatever series you're collecting?? how did you learn which of the keys were the real winners and what series you might want to focus on?? how did you learn to decide which grade to buy when assembling a set?? how did you learn how to grade the coins you collect, the individual series' and the different strikes within those??
Modern Coinage is no different in these respects than Classic Coinage. the easiest way to answer these questions is the same for both schools---get books and read/study them, look at images at auction and dealer sites, go to shows and look at coins, go to dealers and look at coins, buy some rolls and sort through them picking out the best coins, get rolls at the bank and do the same thing, send coins in for grading, etc.
the rules for the Modern game are the same as for the Classic game.
al h.
However, I think I have a couple of examples that support both sides, which it seems that MOST people are actually doing, if you read close enough. All of us here know what a great, educational, and exciting hobby coin collecting can be. Alot of us have found that it can also be a profitable one, but that takes experience, a few (or more) hard knocks, and time. And more time. and then some time!
I have to drive home right now, but I look forward to getting back to this subject asap - I think a lot of very good points are made by both sides of the "great debate".....I even have a small bone to pick with something Al said
Keep it going for another 45 minutes or so.......
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
Al, if you have taught me nothing less (over the course of this 48 hour spanking), at the very least I have learned this.
edited only to add:
<< <i>I have promised to stop bashing modern collectors, but something said in a reply on this thread is very telling about why hi priced moderns should be avoided by any but the most into them " the astute modern collector knows what to look for" yes, and appearantly they even have a hard time finding the condition rarities when they know what to look for. So, for anyone who isn't experienced at it, who doesn't know the dates that exist in roll quantity or the highest grade that is hard to find for a paricular date, and what the coin is really worth, then what do those people do to avoid the school of hard knocks that most of us went through in our own areas of experience ?
I hope that didn't sound like modern bashing, but it seems like just as their might be bigger rewards for those of you who know what to look for, their could be bigger risks for peole interested in moderns who have zero idea what to look for.
Les >>
No it's really not modern bashing but as Keets pointed out it's no different really than any
other coin collecting.
An education in moderns can be had relatively cheaply. This is partly because the coins are
so much cheaper but mostly it's because the market practically gives away the raw coins.
Don't get too carried away trying this because postage and premiums can eat up a lot of
money if you're having little success but just start looking at some mint, proof sets and rolls.
As a general rule the quality of each date will follow a bell curve of sorts and you can extra-
polate a lot from relatively little data. This is not foolproof because if you look at only several
hundred of some coins you'll believe the finest is only MS-65. But if you keep looking you'll
suddenly stumble on something much better. The '70-S nickel in the mint set comes to mind.
Finding nice examples of this with full steps is an impossibility until you hit about the 1200th
set and find it. It will be far better than your second best. Generally though there will be
one curve for roll coins and a different one for mint set coins.
account for a dozen or so dealers, but I think it was kinda the norm, and much more practiced and widespread than one could imagine.
Eastside
Oh..where to start? First, I think we all agree that what we all do, regardless of motive, intent, hopes, likes and dislikes, is COLLECT COINS. The circumstances of when we were bitten by the bug may vary, and the reason(s) we are still active obviously span a wide range, but I would submit that we all are striving for a few main goals - complete a collection (type, series, common theme, etc), learn as much as possible about coins and thereby history, own the "best known" set of a particular series, invest for the future, or earn a living. There are many other sub-sets of the above motives, but you get my drift...we all have our own reasons for being here and exchanging opinions.
I had to re-read most of the thread to remember my point of disagreement with keets, but now I remember - al, I think that most of us here on the boards got started with hand-me-down collections of coins that were neither "classic" in the classic sense, or "modern" in the modern sense for this arguement, but rather, older coins that were no longer in circulation that had different, interesting patterns which we had never seen before (except maybe in a book or magazine). These Buffalos, Mercs, SLQs, steel cents, etc.. did not have great market value, but they were enough to get us started on our individual journey thru the collecting world.
That said, I have never understood the significant difference in collecting "classic coins" or "modern" coins. At what point does a coin become classic (I know - that has been debated here ad nauseum in the past, and it's a separate discussion)? Were I a collector in the 1920s, would I have turned my nose up at Peace dollars because they were a new issue, and so readily available? I suppose one could argue that the sheer numbers of coins produced in more recent decades makes them less rare, and therefore not "classic", but we have seen plenty of examples noted here of modern coins that are vastly harder to find than the great majority of classic coins.
I ( like keets and others) must disagree with the statement about modern issues resulting in so many newbies being "burned", never to return to the hobby...that is pure hooey! I was first burned by a local dealer on an 1883-cc morgan, then by Teletrade & PCGS on coins that I cracked to put into folders, later to be told that they had been altered and got bb'd. Did this turn me off to the hobby? - Not at all, on the contrary, it caused me to "buy the book, then buy the coin"...in other words, do my homework before making any more "classic" coin purchases.
On the other hand, I have made much more money selling "modern" coins than I have selling/trading my older coins. But this came about once again due to my lack of knowledge (or in spite of my lack of knowledge), and caused me to join in on the CU forums & website to learn more about modern issues' mintages and condition populations. Quick story - I submitted some coins when I first joined CU 3 + years ago. Among the coins were some statehood quarters, and among those were 4 Conn. that came back MS68. These sat in their blue boxes for months before I decided to put a pair of P&D MS68s on eBay, with a minimum bid of $9.99, and no reserve. Almost immediately I started getting emails from bidders asking what would it take for me to end the auction early. I replied that I did not end auctions early - until somebody attached a number to there request - $3,000!! Now that got my attention, so I looked into the population reports, then I looked into the registry sets, then I began to understand the offers. I had NO idea that those coins would bring that kind of jingle, or I would have put them up months earlier. But the point is, I DIDN'T SOLICIT SALES OF THE COINS - THE SOLICITATIONS CAME TO ME! So I just can't buy that "roach motel", registery set BS causing newbies to be burned - they will just as easily be burned on "classic" coins, just like me with that 1883CC! To quote Rod Stewart..."you have to learn it just like me, and that's the hardest way...Oh how I wish I knew what I know now, when I was younger!"
Anyway, IMHO, if more folks collected what they like, not what somebody tells them to collect, or what they think will make the most profit, there will be alot more happy collectors and dealers! Modern issues are still coins, and numismatics is coin collecting, so to exclude them is to be short sighted. As I said, there are many facets to collecting, and it's wonderful to specialize and have extensive knowledge of a particular coin type or series, but don't deprive somebody else their joy in collecting just because it's a coin/series that was minted after an arbitrary date.
BTW - I have new found respect for al and his Jeff collection, because I have been looking thru an awful lot of unc sets lately, and finding nice, high-grade Jeffersons is hard enough, let alone FS examples! Even tho it's a design that never appealed to me, I've learned a good bit about them from keets & others, and now, having put in the sweat equity, I can appreciate anybody who manages to put together a high grade collection of that series! Whooo! I need a breather, and a cold one!
For those of you who lasted - God Bless!
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!
i think you're correct about getting started with hand-me-downs from a grandparent or maybe a relative who's died, but most often i think the actual collecting starts with more contemporary issues. my start was when my Grandparents gave me Morgans for Christmas and then i assumed possession of the old coins as relatives would pass. ironically, when i started forming a collection i pushed Lincolns, Roosevelts and Washington Quarters into Whitmans, but not Jefferson Nickels for some reason. that passion had to fester for about 15 years.
al h.