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ethics
phut
Posts: 1,087 ✭
Background:
I recently participated in a swap with Mr.Y. Mr.Y purchased some coins from Mr.T and had Mr.T mail them directly to me. I received the package with an 1866 3 cent piece marked VF and 2 quarters 64P&D both marked ms-65 and figured this was a fair trade. When I got home and looked at the coins in better light I noticed wear marks on all high points(quarters pictured below) and put the grade at AU-58 at best.
I then noticed that MS-65 was written on top of whiteout so I gently scraped it off. Under the whiteout was exactly as I had expected, AU written in the same hand writing and same ink as the date and Mr.Ts initials on the back of the 2x2. So I PMed Mr.Y and told him the story. He was not happy.
I then PMed Mr.T and politely asked if he was duped or was he the duper. He said that he was duped and I could send the quarters back and He would refund Mr.Ys money for them.
Yesterday I sent Mr.T a PM and said that Mr. Y and I were all squared away and that I would be sending the coins back to him so he could square up with Mr.Y and I got this back....
You haven't mailed the coins out yet!!!!!!
I have a 10 day return privilege from date of receipt,which was the 23rd of Sept.,right?.So that would make the deadline for mailing the coins out Oct. 2nd.
I won't be able to refund xxxx his money because of this,so you 2 will have to work it out as you're a week late!
I have 2 questions about Mr.Ts business ethics.
1 Since he sent the coins direct to me and did not mention any return policy should I have to honor the unknown return policy?
2 He misrepresented the items in the first place so should I be the one to take the loss?
Mr.T is a CU member and sells on the BST forum. I may have to edit this and use real names so others who purchase from him will know what to look for as I feel I have been taken advantage of due to my relative newbie status. What do you think?
I recently participated in a swap with Mr.Y. Mr.Y purchased some coins from Mr.T and had Mr.T mail them directly to me. I received the package with an 1866 3 cent piece marked VF and 2 quarters 64P&D both marked ms-65 and figured this was a fair trade. When I got home and looked at the coins in better light I noticed wear marks on all high points(quarters pictured below) and put the grade at AU-58 at best.
I then noticed that MS-65 was written on top of whiteout so I gently scraped it off. Under the whiteout was exactly as I had expected, AU written in the same hand writing and same ink as the date and Mr.Ts initials on the back of the 2x2. So I PMed Mr.Y and told him the story. He was not happy.
I then PMed Mr.T and politely asked if he was duped or was he the duper. He said that he was duped and I could send the quarters back and He would refund Mr.Ys money for them.
Yesterday I sent Mr.T a PM and said that Mr. Y and I were all squared away and that I would be sending the coins back to him so he could square up with Mr.Y and I got this back....
You haven't mailed the coins out yet!!!!!!
I have a 10 day return privilege from date of receipt,which was the 23rd of Sept.,right?.So that would make the deadline for mailing the coins out Oct. 2nd.
I won't be able to refund xxxx his money because of this,so you 2 will have to work it out as you're a week late!
I have 2 questions about Mr.Ts business ethics.
1 Since he sent the coins direct to me and did not mention any return policy should I have to honor the unknown return policy?
2 He misrepresented the items in the first place so should I be the one to take the loss?
Mr.T is a CU member and sells on the BST forum. I may have to edit this and use real names so others who purchase from him will know what to look for as I feel I have been taken advantage of due to my relative newbie status. What do you think?
0
Comments
I pity the fool who would not accept returns under these circumstances.
So Mr. T is an sleazeBay Power Screwer!
Writes a new grade on top of whiteout! What nerve. He must think everybody is really stupid!
You have 10 business days to send the coins back so Oct 8 is the deadline.
And he is using this as an excuse to rip off Mr. Y's money.
Even if he makes it right you should post Mr T's name & board id so we will know to avoid this back biting weasel and avoid him as to not have to go through the same bullshiat ourselves.
My Auctions
Russ, NCNE
I love this respose! LOL!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
My OmniCoin Collection
My BankNoteBank Collection
Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
<< <i>Is he a member of the ANA? If so, you can file an ethics complaint for misrepresenting the coin. >>
Barry has a point, and I agree with the others, that you should reveal the person anyways.......
42/92
I completely understand the need to put some limit on a return privilege, but to hide behind a 10-day deadline over a couple of common AU silver quarters? When the seller already knew they were coming back? And everyone involved is a board member?
That's crazy. If there's another side to the story, Mr. T, let's hear it. But if this is the way it went down, then I'd say Mr. T is in the wrong about as far as possible.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Ken
money he thought he had coming in. Whether you took a couple extra days trying to figure out how to unwind this
(very complicated) transaction is not what is important.
Another important issue is using white-out to raise the grade of a coin. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
Get a new freakin' 2x2 dude.
The idea that he's trying to weasel out on a technicallity after the misrepresentation is laughable.
-Khayse
ps "Oh, yeah. I mailed the coins out on the 8th. No problem."
Yeah, but the Russian guy killed Apollo! Oh well, both got theirs from Rocky in the end..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
Another important issue is using white-out to raise the grade of a coin. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
Get a new freakin' 2x2 dude. >>
<< <i>He didn't have another 2x2 and the board members wouldn't supply them to him free of charge?? >>
Oh no! Is Mr. T GregTheGreat?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>He didn't have another 2x2 and the board members wouldn't supply them to him free of charge?? >>
Oh no! Is Mr. T GregTheGreat?
Russ, NCNE >>
Wouldn't that be something else?
<< <i>
<< <i>He didn't have another 2x2 and the board members wouldn't supply them to him free of charge?? >>
Oh no! Is Mr. T GregTheGreat?
Russ, NCNE >>
If that's true, a nice way to start a business.
MD
Thank you all for your input. I'll put all your names,from the 3 forums, in a hat (everyone that posted before this post )and send a roll of boat nickels to the person I draw.
I'll announce the winner in a Mr.T giveaway thread.
It's not Greg.
we would like to know who this scumbag is. You are doing us a diservice at the expense of protecting a crook.
Bruce
<< <i>
we would like to know who this scumbag is. You are doing us a diservice at the expense of protecting a crook.
Bruce >>
Louis
<< <i>I just did a search of the swap forum and it is easy enough to determine who Mr. A is. As for the scoundrel Mr. T, it isn't possible from the information there to ID him.
Louis >>
who the FiretrUCK is Mr. A?
also, the BST forum should maintain the HIGHEST standard as it is among board members.
However, from the info you supplied you have NO gripe against Mr T. IMO. Your dealing was with Mr. Y and your refund request should have been directed to Mr. Y as the coins belonged to Mr. Y (they were just shipped to you by Mr. T.). I would also suggest in the future NOT to get involved in third-party sales as it blurrs the lines of responsibility.
Joe.
I told him I would keep the overgraded stuff he sent, since I was too lazy to send it back, but asked for my refund in cash rather than trade, since I didn't want more overgraded junk. He just this week came through on the refund, after nearly two months and several reminders. A pleasant enough fella, and he made good in the end, but it took a long time, and there's also the overgrading issue. I don't think I'll be dealing with him again.
I wonder if my "Mr. T" is your Mr. T.
PS- my mysterious "Mr. T" also failed to crimp his staples on the 2 X 2's, though I don't recall seeing any whiteout.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
Tim has confirmed it- his Mister T is the same Mister T I had some minor trouble with. I was the only one to PM a correct guess.
In deference to Tim, who doesn't want this dragged out too much in the open until the situation is resolved, I'm keepin' my mouth shut.
But I came *this close* to posting my own beef about this guy earlier this week. His tardy refund arrived just as I was preparing to do that.
Mister T, I'm keeping quiet this time, but YOU know who you are. You're a pleasant enough guy, but your grading and customer service could use a little work. The coins you sent me were dogs, for the most part. I was being polite when I toned down my first complaint to you.
I'll keep my mouth shut for now, since Mister T, was polite and pleasant in all our PM's, and did eventually come through for me in the end with a refund on the incomplete portion of my order. He originally offered to refund my money on the overgraded coins I'd received, too, but like I said, I was too lazy to return them and just kept them.
I'm fairly confident he can be trusted to fix Tim's little problem. I just hope he just won't take quite as long as he did with me.
If Mister T doesn't come clean to Tim's satisfaction, I will spill the beans, since I know his true identity.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
You're one of the most decent guys around here on the boards. You do a lot for our hobby and MD'ing... Glad things worked out for the best for you and hopefully Tim. However, I'd like to see you let the rest of us know who Mr. T is.
Thanks,
KP
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
Guys, if I can make a suggestion...as I have been a party to a thread about me & I came out myself to explian my story......these Mr."T", "X", "Y" or "Z" alias may make you feel better by not 'ratting' some guy out, it does nothing for all the members that supported your cause.
We are now left to worry about deals we make with other members, & if your last name ends with "T", your rep may have been tarnished by this thread.
I can only hope Mr. "T" comes out, gives his side of the story, tells us all that things will be made right & we can move on.
<< <i>We are now left to worry about deals we make with other members, & if your last name ends with "T", your rep may have been tarnished by this thread. >>
Maybe anyone whose last name ends with "T" should post here saying it wasn't them, and if it's not, maybe someone who knows the identity of *the* Mr. T can confirm it. That way you're not ratting anyone out, but you're also protecting the reputation of folks who may be incorrectly suspected.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
Seems like a pattern, even if with only 2 that have come forward, and, that makes me want to avoid ALL sellers on the BST forum that have a last name starting with "T".
Do I think that is fair to them? No. But, do I want to be the next one that has problems? NO!
If it was enough of an issue to post about, it should be enough to be upfront about with names. Then, people that have had good transactions can also give their posts in defense if they want.
I really don't want to crucify anyone but I also don't like people (maybe me!) being taken advantage of.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>If you dont have the nads to ID the seller then dont post your problems here. Your using this forum
as leverage and dont have the testosterone to I.D. the arse. In a nut shell this whole fricken thread has
been a big waste of time and everyone with a name that ensds with T is a jerk. Boys grow the F----
up. Put up or shut up & dont come here whining about some poor treatment so and so did. >>
Just making sure this T is kept clean
The agreement was reached in PM's back and forth and the terms are Cashier's check first, then material mailed afterward.
So - as you might guess, I am curious at the least, but also getting more concerned.
A little help would be appreciated.
My Auctions
Have a Great Day!
Louis
From what I gather, unless I totally miss the point, is that the seller of the coins is the cause of whatever problem albeit real or perceived, because he used "Used Flips" in a known trade?? Geez, I've done that myself....so what? The other aspect of this is Tim's inability to differentiate between AU and Unc coins and admitted curiosity by scratching away white out. Look at the coin and not the white out, phut.
I cannot believe all this malarkey over not being able to tell if a coin is Unc or not and the possible use of used flips. What a waste of time, possibly defaming an otherwise good person! BS
And did you catch the part about phut not having fulfilled his end of the trade which goes way beyond the seller's return privilege and while I'm thinking about it....even if they are new flips, "Grading is subjective" and maybe someone at some point in time thought the coins to be AU but upon further inspection, being totally subjective, of course, later found them to be of higher grade. I DON'T KNOW....TRIVIAL!!
<< <i>I have followed this post, did some investigating and had it confirmed as to the identity of both Mr. Y and Mr. T. And since the wrong members name may be tarnished, I will disclose the information. Mr. Y is eyoung and Mr. T is Htubbs. Was hesitant to post this but this behavior is uncalled for and not acceptible to granddad.
Have a Great Day!
Louis >>
Thank you Louis for outing this scumbag!
I agree with MANOCOINS that if someone post a message like this they should have the cajonies to out them and not use this forum as a leverage to scare the party they are having problems with without letting the other members of this forum know who they're talking about!
I can assure you had it been me that had this problem I would make one attempt to solve it, and then I wouldn't have hesitated for one minute in exposing this bastidge!!! People like this totally disgust me and ruin this hobby for honest dealers and collectors!!!!
Perhaps I should have used x,y,and z as granddad pointed out to me. Perhaps I am ethically challenged.
I was hoping that Mr. Tubbs would come here and state his case, as it was not working for us in PMs. I was wrong.