Scumbag dealer stories!!!!

majorbigtime · July 27, 2004 2:38PM

I suspect we all would agree that there are many fine, honest coin dealers to work with and a few scumbags too!

Maybe I'm a bit perverse, but I'd be interested in scumbag stories (maybe we will run a thread on good dealer stories later).

I'll go first.

Awhile ago, I took a couple of patterns to the Long Beach show to show to Rick Kay (a good guy) and a few others. They are in 1st generation PSCG (rattler) holders, and I was asking about upgrade potential. I stopped by to chat with a crack out artist dealer (he was crackin' 'em out left and right). I figured he would be a good judge on upgrade potential, so I asked him to look at my coins.

He said they might upgrade, but are probably worth more in the old holders. He suggested that one of my coins should somehow be enhanced by "oiling". He explained that he had a technique to open the holder, "work on" the coin, and they replace it and reseal the holder. When I questioned the ethics of such a practice, he said it's OK because the same (albeit "doctored") coin would be returned to the holder.

This seems to be unethical, deceptive and a borderline fraud. I also thought it was stupid of the dealer to brag about his chicanery. I doubt that a holder can be opened and resealed without detection, and I was skeptical that he may have been working some kind of an"angle". I put the dealer in the scumbag category.

Any comments on this scumbag story or stories of your own??

airplanenut · July 27, 2004 2:42PM

<< Rick Kay (a good guy) >>

Agreed

I think that guy is scum, but I'm also not sure if it's true...the plastic isn't at all pliable, and it is nicely sealed--I think there would be some sign of tampering...

granddad · July 27, 2004 2:43PM

Did you check to make sure you still had your watch after leaving his booth?

Louis

RKKay · July 27, 2004 2:44PM

>>><< Rick Kay (a good guy) >>

Agreed

I think that guy is scum, but I'm also not sure if it's true...the plastic isn't at all pliable, and it is nicely sealed--I think there would be some sign of tampering...

>>>>>

Jeremy: Are you calling me a scumbag?

BTW, Majorbigtime: Thanks for the compliment.

Myqqy · July 27, 2004 2:45PM

So, since you obviously don't like this guy in your story, and you're admittedly somewhat perverse, then perhaps you would be interested in letting us all know who the friendly coin doctor is??

majorbigtime · July 27, 2004 2:46PM

<< yeah who was the dealer? >>

I didn't get his name. Long Beach regualrs probably know who I am talking about. His table was towards the rear, and he's "Mr. Crackout".

majorbigtime · July 27, 2004 2:48PM

<< Did you check to make sure you still had your watch after leaving his booth?

/q]

You bet, and made sure I had my coins before going to wash my hands!!

EVillageProwler · July 27, 2004 2:48PM

I don't believe this dealer. If the coin were already in the slab, then what's the point of working on the coin without working on the insert? Wouldn't it MUCH easier to simply work on the insert?

EVP

majorbigtime · July 27, 2004 2:59PM

<< >>><< Rick Kay (a good guy) >>

BTW, Majorbigtime: Thanks for the compliment.

>>

You're welcome Rick. Others also speak highly of you.

Heck, anyone who will forego Saturday at the LB show to take a kid to a Little League game has to be a good guy!

You know the coins I am talking about, and may have an idea who I am talking about too!

RKKay · July 27, 2004 3:10PM

I know the coins, but am not sure of the dealer.

Goober · July 27, 2004 3:11PM

I, about two weeks ago, travelled 121 miles to visit a shop that was supposedly a "PCGS Dealer". I got there and after looking at eight display cases, found not one coin in any holder. I politely asked the lady, who hung onto my every move as if I was going to pull out a Glock and take the place over, if she had any graded material. She showed up with a common date wheat graded AG4 by Anacs. I said, "Is that all?" and she replied, "Yes." Needless to say every coin had a top dollar price, then their grade, and their price. BUT, and it's a big BUT, every coin was overgraded and either polished or cleaned. I have since learned he's (the lady's husband) a bit odd, and does in fact clean up his materail b/4 selling. Long trip for nothing.

baccaruda · July 27, 2004 3:15PM

Did you check to make sure you still had your watch after leaving his booth?

Screw the watch, I'd check to see if I still had 2 kidneys.

majorbigtime · July 27, 2004 3:15PM

<< I, about two weeks ago, travelled 121 miles to visit a shop that was supposedly a "PCGS Dealer". I got there and after looking at eight display cases, found not one coin in any holder. I politely asked the lady, who hung onto my every move as if I was going to pull out a Glock and take the place over, if she had any graded material. She showed up with a common date wheat graded AG4 by Anacs. I said, "Is that all?" and she replied, "Yes." Needless to say every coin had a top dollar price, then their grade, and their price. BUT, and it's a big BUT, every coin was overgraded and either polished or cleaned. I have since learned he's (the lady's husband) a bit odd, and does in fact clean up his materail b/4 selling. Long trip for nothing. >>

A lousy dealer, but not a scumbag.

C'mon folks, are you saying you don't have any scumbag experiences???

Sequitur · July 27, 2004 4:46PM

He explained that he had a technique to open the holder, "work on" the coin, and they replace it and reseal the holder.

You should have pursued the offer. See if it can be done. If the dealer does what he says, and you can't detect slab alteration, you will have a major, major story in the making.

291fifth · July 27, 2004 8:45PM

About 20 years ago a story, probably true, circulated in my area about a particularly unsavory local store dealer who stole a coin from a potential seller simply by taking the coin, looking at it, keeping it, and then claiming that the seller had not shown him anything.

This dealer no longer operates a coin store but is a truly dislikable type who still operates another local business; a business that I avoid like the plague.

majorbigtime · July 27, 2004 9:09PM

<< About 20 years ago a story, probably true, circulated in my area about a particularly unsavory local store dealer who stole a coin from a potential seller simply by taking the coin, looking at it, keeping it, and then claiming that the seller had not shown him anything.

. >>

Now THAT'S a scumbag!!!

wingedliberty · July 27, 2004 9:17PM

Far too numerous to mention in one post. Just go to any medium to large show and you will find at least two, from those who are rude to children to those who are grossly overcharging, to ones who brag about ripping off little old ladie's estates. In some cases, the word scumbag is too lenient of a term.

astrorat · July 27, 2004 9:28PM

<< Did you check to make sure you still had your watch after leaving his booth?

Screw the watch, I'd check to see if I still had 2 kidneys. >>

Now THAT'S funny!

Lane

Barry · July 27, 2004 11:14PM

I've only cracked one PCGS slab, so can't comment, but I've cracked many ANACS' slabs, and they can be put back together. I've also cleanly cracked PCI slabs.

For example:

elwood · July 27, 2004 11:38PM

<< and they replace it and reseal the holder. >>

<< but I'm also not sure if it's true...the plastic isn't at all pliable, and it is nicely sealed--I think there would be some sign of tampering... >>

Yes, First Generation PCGS holders (also known as rattlers) can be cracked and resealed without discovery. It became an issue at the time and to solve this problem PCGS started putting a hard plastic wrap around the edge of the first gen holder (also known as a rattler wrap).

marcmoish · July 27, 2004 11:59PM

His table was towards the rear, and he's "Mr. Crackout".

this scumbag has his buisiness cracking out of his rear indeed - such stories makes me puketh

Marc

100proof1957 · July 28, 2004 12:31AM

just did my first crack out on an NGC holder,they come apart quite easily,with a little work i think it would go un-detected

kieferscoins · July 28, 2004 12:34AM

<< Yes, First Generation PCGS holders (also known as rattlers) can be cracked and resealed without discovery. It became an issue at the time and to solve this problem PCGS started putting a hard plastic wrap around the edge of the first gen holder (also known as a rattler wrap). >>

Wrong. A dealer started to counterfeit the actual slabs and thats when PCGS changed their slab design. If they cracked without detection every rattler slab would be off the market or PCGS would be out of business.

Cameron Kiefer

mrearlygold · July 28, 2004 12:40AM

It's amazing to me that people would actually sit there and take precious time to crack out coins to either see if they can do it, ( why?) or do so for the purposes of ripping others off.

Truly amazing.

Tom

100proof1957 · July 28, 2004 12:45AM

A: i wanted to see if i could do it
B: its a really common coin
C: its going to PCGS just to see if it will X

mrearlygold · July 28, 2004 12:47AM

George, I wasn't directing that at you. It just amazes me though. I guess I'd rather spend my time on other things.

Tom

elwood · July 28, 2004 1:39AM

<< Wrong. A dealer started to counterfeit the actual slabs and thats when PCGS changed their slab design. >>

Cameron, They didn't actually change the design, did they?...just added the wrap?

<< If they cracked without detection >>

Please read below....obviously it can and is being done.

<< He explained that he had a technique to open the holder, "work on" the coin, and they replace it and reseal the holder. >>

I know you are an expert on slabs and have much more knowledge than I do, but may not have all the facts and history.

kieferscoins · July 28, 2004 1:56AM

<< Cameron, They didn't actually change the design, did they?...just added the wrap? >>

They changed the label, added the wrap, added a hologram etc. I am no expert on slabs either.

<< 
Please read below....obviously it can and is being done. >>

Obvious?????? Did you see him do it or just listen to his story? You listened to the story. If he could do that he wouldn't be bragging about it and would be quietly STILL doing it because there are still alot of rattler slabs out there. I don't believe everything people tell me and he could be full of it.

Cameron Kiefer

cohodk · July 28, 2004 2:10AM

I took some coins into a local dealer. He introduced me to his buddy that did alot of sales on Ebay. I ended up selling the coins to him. The dealer got upset with me because I didnt give him any juice. I told him to get the juice from his buddy since he was the one who was going to make money on the resale. I havent been back in his store since.

rhedden · July 28, 2004 2:20AM

Two early copper stories:

At my hometown show in Pennsylvania, there is an out-of-state copper dealer who goes to the dealer hour before the show starts and buys every single Liberty Cap and Draped Bust coin in the whole room, no matter what the price. He then piles them in his case in a heap in plain view and won't sell them to prospective customers. If you want to buy early copper at the show, you must buy it from his inventory at his inflated retail prices. The he packs up and leaves after 1 hour because nobody is going to his table (DUH). This flagrant market cornering is the reasonthat I will never buy a coin from him no matter what, and earned him a spot on my personal Scumbag list . I hope he reads this forum.

I attended a small town show in Maryland and purchased a nice 1801 large cent, corrected fraction, S-221, in VF for $350 from a regular dealer (non-copper specialist). That was about 10% below the Redbook retail price at the time. At the next table was a different well-known copper dealer who had the same coin, exact same Sheldon variety, in inferior condition (F-15), for $3,350.00. This is not a rare variety. Looking at his table, all of the coins were overpriced to a similar extent. Granted, a dealer can charge any price for a coin that he wants, but there is a limit to what is fair. I also won't ever purchase anything from that dealer.

On a more positive note, for those of you interested, I can recommend via PM a good copper dealer or two with whom I've had nice experiences.

Bikingnut · July 28, 2004 2:58AM

That's one dealer I would steer clear of.

majorbigtime · July 28, 2004 11:11AM

Many years ago at a Long Beach show, I looked at a dealer's 50s double mint sets during a "hot" market and declined to purchase when he quoted prices consideraably above grey sheet. He then insulted me, said I wasted his time, wasn't serious, etc. What a scumbag!!

Years later, when the market was soft and I was one of a few cash buyers on the floor, I walked by his table and he asked "can I show you anything?" I replied, "no thanks, you were rude to me a few years ago and I have a long memory".

Sweet revenge!!

Fountainhead · July 28, 2004 11:30AM

Early American. I purchased an ICG PF-64 1862 dollar from them a few years back in an internet auction. When I received it I discovered that its flaws did not appear in the on-line photograph and was consequently overgraded.

At first, the customer-service guy was willing to take it back, but after checking with the boss informed me that it was the company president's personal coin and he didn't want to see it again!

PCGS did not cross this coin even at PR-62. Yes, I paid the full PF-64 price for it.

majorbigtime · July 28, 2004 9:06PM

<< When I received it I discovered that its flaws did not appear in the on-line photograph and was consequently overgraded.

. >>

A doctored photo??

I've heard of some Ebayers who "enhance" photos using "photoshop" or something.

To me, that's blatent misrepresentation!!

Fountainhead · July 28, 2004 10:02PM

Maybe not doctored. The faintest hint of one key flaw was visible in the web photo - but this flaw and other scratches were not mentioned in the item description. Tricky lighting may have sufficed to obscure them.

ddink · July 29, 2004 12:35AM

In a case like that, I'd have paid with a credit card, and if you are certain that the coin was misrepresented in the auction, and no returns are permitted, do a chargeback on your credit card, and when you get your money back, send the coin back to the seller. Obviously that's not something you should abuse, but if the image was doctored, I think it would be a good course of action.

100proof1957 · July 29, 2004 12:47AM

some of these sellers on EBAY are getting veeery good with photo shop !

bushmaster8 · July 29, 2004 1:22AM

Some years ago, a major national dealer made a recommendation to buy Foreign coins from a certain World Coin dealer that he claimed was beyond reproach. So I bought a Netherlands 1897 10 Gulden gold coin from the Darkside dealer. Some years later, NGC returned the coin to me in a bodybag...it was a counterfeit. In the meantime the Darksider had closed up her shop, so I contacted the original dealer and explained the situation and inquired as to whether or not he knew where I could locate the foreign dealer that sold me the counterfeit. I never got any reply from the scumbag dealer despite several attempts.

Oh, by the way, the name of the dealer that gave the BAD recommendation: David Hall.

Bayside · July 29, 2004 3:09AM

Ouch.

Scumbag dealer stories!!!!

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