Last Submission: I know now the grader who graded these has no clue as to what he is doing:

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 7:44AM

VARIETY COUNTRY GRADE
1950 50C USA Damage ....this coin was perfect
1951-D 50C USA Cleaning ....reworking of the die what he saw was die polish.
1951 50C USA Damage ....reworking of the die
1952-D 50C USA MS64FL ...under graded
1952 50C USA AU58 ....under graded
1953-D 50C USA MS64FL ...under graded
1954-D 50C USA MS62FL ....under graded
1963 50C USA MS64 ...under graded

Totally pathetic.

numonebuyer · July 2, 2004 7:46AM

Ouch.

Russ · July 2, 2004 7:46AM

Yes, I'm sure it must be the graders.

Russ, NCNE

darktone · July 2, 2004 7:49AM

Sorry- but with that many coins off the mark I would have to say the problem is on your end and not PCGS's

. Can you post a few pics? mike

MadMarty · July 2, 2004 7:57AM

They seemed to do OK with mine, maybe they mixed the orders up!

1 21594996 1961-D 50C USA MS64FL
2 21594997 1961 50C USA MS64
3 21594998 1961 50C USA MS64
4 21594999 1961-D 50C USA MS64FL
5 21595000 1960-D 50C USA MS64FL
6 21595001 1955 50C USA MS64
7 21595002 1958 50C USA MS64
8 21595003 1954-D 50C USA MS64FL
9 21595004 1952 50C USA MS65FL

jdimmick · July 2, 2004 7:58AM

Sorry to say, but I am thinking the same!

Bubblehead · July 2, 2004 7:59AM

Boy.. Those grades definitely suck!
Shoot.. They even mixed up one of your coins with one of Marty's, as well!

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 8:09AM

Here is one of the 51.

MadMarty · July 2, 2004 8:10AM

Post a picture of the whole coin please.

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 8:15AM

When I get it Marty.

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 8:19AM

If they are going to allow a grader to grade coins they should at least make sure he knows about how the dies were reworked and polished....that picture is not of a damaged coin...it was from a reworked die.

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 8:20AM

The Luster would knock your socks off.

fivecents · July 2, 2004 8:23AM

dlimb...that black spot on the 51 in the picture looks like it could be corrosion.

Shamika · July 2, 2004 8:24AM

<< Post a picture of the whole coin please. >>

No kidding! All I see is what appears to be a surface that has been harshly cleaned.

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 8:26AM

This coins had no corrosion they had no color but they had luster delux. that is a leftover end of a retooled 5...it is raised.

Rampage · July 2, 2004 8:28AM

There have been a few times I have submitted a certain type coin, same date, same variety, and the coins did not come back as expected.

Well, I finally sat down with all the coins to determine why these coins all came back MS65 instead of MS66. The obverses were as nice as the 66s, but what I did not catch was on the reverse of each coin. There was minor roughness. The 66s did not have this flaw.

So, now I learned the difference between 66 and 65 on this coin. However, even with a 65 I am still making pretty good money on it. Just would be much better with a 66 coin.

Not saying that is your problem, but you mght want to look at your coins when you get them back before blasting the PCGS graders the way you are doing. JMO.

Russ · July 2, 2004 8:28AM

<< If they are going to allow a grader to grade coins they should at least make sure he knows about how the dies were reworked and polished >>

I'd bet that the at least two graders who looked at the coin do, in fact, know that. If a coin or two comes back in a bag or a lower grade than expected, you can reasonably argue that PCGS blew it - which they do sometimes. When an entire submission gets toasted, it's obvious the problem is not on their end.

Hey, we've all gone through this. I yelled and screamed plenty in the beginning that PCGS was a bunch of idiots. Funny thing is the more I learned, the smarter they became.

Russ, NCNE

greghansen · July 2, 2004 8:36AM

I have no opinion on your particular submission, but I have also had services improperly body bag a coin for cleaning when the marks on the surfaces were raised die polish lines instead of incuse hairlines. Since then, whenever I've submitted a coin that has significant die polishing, I hand write 'from polished dies' on the invoice with my description of the coin. I'm sure they hate my scribbling on the invoices, but I've never had another wrongly body bagged for that reason since doing it.

nwcs · July 2, 2004 8:42AM

<< Hey, we've all gone through this. I yelled and screamed plenty in the beginning that PCGS was a bunch of idiots. Funny thing is the more I learned, the smarter they became.
>>

I had the same experience after my first few submissions.

ms70 · July 2, 2004 8:42AM

<< the more I learned, the smarter they became.

Russ, NCNE >>

Now that's a profound statement!

clackamas · July 2, 2004 8:43AM

I had a lincoln with heavy die polish get bagged for cleaning and then went 67RD on the next try. However I did have coins that were cleaned that I missed that they did not - bagged and rightly so. I do hope your coins are OK.

coinguy1 · July 2, 2004 8:45AM

Greg, I strongly doubt that the graders are made aware of the notes you write on the invoices.

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 8:46AM

Sure is...at that rate ...I just find it rather sad that they are supose to be professional graders...yet they know nothing about the dies of the Franklins...I just find it totally pathetic.

nwcs · July 2, 2004 8:48AM

Well, since you opened the door to the question, (and I'm trying to ask very politely and nicely) how knowledgeable are you regarding franklins? Can you give us some details with which to understand where you are coming from? How long have you collected them? What resources have you read/studied? Can you show us some pics of your collection?

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 8:48AM

clack, I know the coins are ok...it is just that it has come to my attention that whom ever has graded these coins has no clue about Franklins.

MadMarty · July 2, 2004 8:49AM

If you take off the damaged and cleaned you get

1952-D 50C USA MS64FL ...under graded
1952 50C USA AU58 ....under graded
1953-D 50C USA MS64FL ...under graded
1954-D 50C USA MS62FL ....under graded
1963 50C USA MS64 ...under graded

Actually MS64 is the average grade, when I saw your coins (I only glanced at them), I didn't see anything that struck me as 66 material. The 64s are 64s, the 58 is a 64 with a bit of rub, beleave me I know about those! and the 62 well you'll just have to wait and look at it. BTW, of course they are all undergraded! all of our coins are undergraded to us.

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 8:53AM

mcs, I have the Complete Guide to Franklin Half Dollars by Rick omaska...I ahave also compared my Franklins to many graded Franklins...I have also had a couple of people who frequent this board look at these Franklins...so I did not just sind them in on a whim.

Russ · July 2, 2004 8:54AM

<< it is just that it has come to my attention that whom ever has graded these coins has no clue about Franklins. >>

You've provided no evidence to support that contention. The coins were evaluated by multiple professional graders and every single result was less than you expected. There is a credibility gap here, and it ain't in Newport Beach.

Russ, NCNE

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 8:56AM

How do you know Russ have you seen the coins? No I can tell you, you have not! Were you with me when I compared them to other PCGS graded coins...no you were not!

Russ · July 2, 2004 8:57AM

dlimb2,

How many submissions have you put through PCGS?

Russ, NCNE

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 9:01AM

Russ, these are my second...and what does the amount of submissions have to do with the grade of a coin...Hum...do you have to resubmit and resubmet to get the coins graded according to what they are....I find it rediculous...nothing more than a game...I have submitted my last to PCGS.

K6AZ · July 2, 2004 9:04AM

What people are trying to tell you dlimb is that while PCGS might get a coin here or there wrong, it is a near impossibility that they got eight out of eight wrong. We've all been through this learning curve, and it is almost always anger first, then after a while you start to learn more about grading and your submissions improve.

fivecents · July 2, 2004 9:04AM

dlimb2.. didn't you have the same complaint with your 1st submission? You posted here about those bad results also.

TWQG · July 2, 2004 9:05AM

<< mcs, I have the Complete Guide to Franklin Half Dollars by Rick omaska...I ahave also compared my Franklins to many graded Franklins...I have also had a couple of people who frequent this board look at these Franklins...besides, I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night...so I did not just sind them in on a whim. >>

Russ · July 2, 2004 9:06AM

<< Russ, these are my second...and what does the amount of submissions have to do with the grade of a coin >>

It has a lot to do with learning how PCGS grades. When I only had two submissions under my belt, I also thought PCGS had no idea what they were doing. It's all part of the educational curve. Reading a book and looking at some coins will only take you so far.

Russ, NCNE

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 9:09AM

fivecents, they were sent in all at the same time...the first ones were the free ones and then this group...all entered on the same day.

ldhair · July 2, 2004 9:10AM

I still screw-up and have been sending coins in for a fair amount of years.

And I feel pretty sure I have a good handle on grading. It's going to happen.

Fairlaneman · July 2, 2004 9:14AM

<< 

<< Russ, these are my second...and what does the amount of submissions have to do with the grade of a coin >>

It has a lot to do with learning how PCGS grades. When I only had two submissions under my belt, I also thought PCGS had no idea what they were doing. It's all part of the educational curve. Reading a book and looking at some coins will only take you so far.

Russ, NCNE >>

Say What ??

Thats bunk. Looking at a vast amount of coins can give you a clue also. Hey give this guy a break. Its not like he walked in here yesterday and started collecting coins with no experience. Why not see what he says when the coins come back.

BTW I have sent in only two submissions also but I think I can keep up with some of you guys here easily.

Ken

greghansen · July 2, 2004 9:17AM

besides, I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night

JRocco · July 2, 2004 9:18AM

Wait till you get the coins back dlimb2, then look at them as if you are seeing them for the first time. Then try to see why they graded what they graded. My first submission was miserable because I sent in coins I graded myself and I, of course, overgraded them. I still can look at those coins and wonder why I didn't see those hairlines, or that rub BEFORE I sent them in. Its a painful learning curve but we all go thru it. Hey- you got some 64's there, not too bad.

ElectricEye · July 2, 2004 9:18AM

<< rediculous >>

: a numismatic term referring to artificial color in regards to copper coins

darktone · July 2, 2004 9:21AM

dlimb2- how about some pictures of these coins on your last submission that PCGS messed up as well?LINK If you can show pictures of these coins being badly undergraded it would give a lot of clout to your statements. mike

Russ · July 2, 2004 9:24AM

<< Looking at a vast amount of coins can give you a clue also. >>

Looking at a "vast" amount will give one a clue, yes. But, define "vast" amount. She didn't indicate that she had looked at a "vast" amount. And that clue may also be to how PCGS graded at different points in time over their 18 year history, not necessarily how they are grading now.

<< Hey give this guy a break. Its not like he walked in here yesterday and started collecting coins with no experience. >>

Actually, her response to the question about the amount of experience she has was that she read a book and looked at some coins. That doesn't really indicate much depth.

Come on, Ken, do you really think PCGS was wrong on the entire submission?

Russ, NCNE

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 9:25AM

darktone, when I get them all in I am going to take a picture of all of them one by one and we shall go through them one by one...maybe everyone will get a lesson from it.

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 9:29AM

Russ, you seem to think most of the people on this board are deaf dumb and blind...hey man I beg to differ with ya....I have many many coins...but I do not believe in having people resubmit and resubmit to increase the share price of PCGS stock either...it is nothing but a game and if you want to play it fine...but I do not.

Fairlaneman · July 2, 2004 9:31AM

Absolutely Not Russ. Experience can be had by means other than submissions.

A little benefit of the doubt should be given though. It would be very nice if a picture or two would be shown from the first submission and the NGC results he said he/she was going to get.

I will agree it is sometimes very easy to overlook a minor detail when grading a coin. My bet is that 62 coin has a luster problem.

Ken

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 9:33AM

Fairlainman, when I get them I will take pictures and we will go through them. Honest Ingens!

dlimb2 · July 2, 2004 9:38AM

I am not that great at taking pictures so I will have to set it all up with the right lighting to get the luster and closeups...I will have 12 coins in all from both submissions. I will post them one by one and you will then make your comments...this shall be a so called learning experience on Frankies for all. I should receive the remaining 8 coins in a week since they sent me the grades today without any indication on shipping.

Myqqy · July 2, 2004 10:01AM

Interesting thread- I think that a large number of hi-res photos of the coins in question would add a lot to what's going on here.....

hojodojonono · July 2, 2004 10:16AM

dlimb2. What it all comes down to is a difference in opinion. You either have to send PCGS better coins to get those higher grades you want, or you will have to send your coins to a different grading company that grades more along the line with how you feel they should be graded. If you want to see 65, 67, 70 grades on every single one of those coins, there are companies out there who will do it for you. A lot of people make the mistake of sending their coins to companies that are way too picky. You read the book. Everybody should be able to put a decent looking set of ms70 Frankies together who wants one. You are just trying to do it the hard way.

wallstreetman · July 2, 2004 10:20AM

<< I will post them one by one and you will then make your comments...this shall be a so called learning experience on Frankies for all. >>

Sorry, I've submitted many a Franklin and never had this happen! As a matter of fact, I can't say any of my submissions came this far below my expectations!

Last Submission: I know now the grader who graded these has no clue as to what he is doing:

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