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Things that get under dealers’ skins at coin shows
BillJones
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Last week I commented that many dealers prefer to pack up and go home from a show before the public days really get started or soon after they begin. There are a number of reasons for this, but one them has to do with fact that many dealers don’t like to work with the public at shows.
I’m going to lead off with a couple of things that really get under dealers’ skins. I hope that other dealers will chime in with their comments.
First many collectors think that they should be able to buy coins at wholesale prices as soon as they subscribe to the Gray Sheet. They expect to be exempted from sales taxes even when they don’t have a resale number. And they expect to evade sales taxes even when they are paying by check, which leaves a clear paper trail of the transaction.
I had one customer at a Massachusetts show agree to a selling price on a coin. Then as he started to write a check, he asked me, “Is was any sales tax included in the price?”
I was honest and told him, “Yes.”
With that he exploded and refused to honor his contract not two minutes after he had made it. He told me, “I’m from Connecticut, and we don’t have a sales tax on coins in Connecticut. I not paying this.” Two minutes earlier the price had been fine, and he was ready to buy the coin, a very nice CC silver dollar. Now he was breaking his contract because he expected me as a Massachusetts dealer to apply Connecticut’s sales tax laws at a coin show in Massachusetts.
Some collectors insist upon taking coins around the floor to get a second opinion from other dealers. I have literally seen a collector ask to see a coin at one table and go to very next table to ask that dealer’s opinion about the coin and the price. What is a dealer supposed to say when he is within earshot of another dealer? It’s a no win situation. Almost invariably other dealers who are out of earshot will give a negative opinion on the deal. Why? Because they would like to make the sale, and free appraisals net them nothing.
In dealer-to-dealer transactions, these situations almost never occur. And if a dealer does do this type of stuff, he usually does not last in the business for very long.
These are couple of reasons why many dealers don’t like to work with the public at shows. There are many others. I like to hear from some other dealers on this topic.
I’m going to lead off with a couple of things that really get under dealers’ skins. I hope that other dealers will chime in with their comments.
First many collectors think that they should be able to buy coins at wholesale prices as soon as they subscribe to the Gray Sheet. They expect to be exempted from sales taxes even when they don’t have a resale number. And they expect to evade sales taxes even when they are paying by check, which leaves a clear paper trail of the transaction.
I had one customer at a Massachusetts show agree to a selling price on a coin. Then as he started to write a check, he asked me, “Is was any sales tax included in the price?”
I was honest and told him, “Yes.”
With that he exploded and refused to honor his contract not two minutes after he had made it. He told me, “I’m from Connecticut, and we don’t have a sales tax on coins in Connecticut. I not paying this.” Two minutes earlier the price had been fine, and he was ready to buy the coin, a very nice CC silver dollar. Now he was breaking his contract because he expected me as a Massachusetts dealer to apply Connecticut’s sales tax laws at a coin show in Massachusetts.
Some collectors insist upon taking coins around the floor to get a second opinion from other dealers. I have literally seen a collector ask to see a coin at one table and go to very next table to ask that dealer’s opinion about the coin and the price. What is a dealer supposed to say when he is within earshot of another dealer? It’s a no win situation. Almost invariably other dealers who are out of earshot will give a negative opinion on the deal. Why? Because they would like to make the sale, and free appraisals net them nothing.
In dealer-to-dealer transactions, these situations almost never occur. And if a dealer does do this type of stuff, he usually does not last in the business for very long.
These are couple of reasons why many dealers don’t like to work with the public at shows. There are many others. I like to hear from some other dealers on this topic.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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Idiocy runs rampant at coin shows... 'nuff said?
42/92
Some collectors insist upon taking coins around the floor to get a second opinion from other dealers. I have literally seen a collector ask to see a coin at one table and go to very next table to ask that dealer’s opinion about the coin and the price. What is a dealer supposed to say when he is within earshot of another dealer? It’s a no win situation. Almost invariably other dealers who are out of earshot will give a negative opinion on the deal. Why?
Kind of like getting a burger at Mcdonalds and walking over to Wendy's and asking them their opinion of it.
TP
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42/92
Thank you very much for creating this thread. Hopefully, it will be very helpful to a number of collectors like myself.
Your statements are reasonable and there isn't an ounce of ego in the delivery of the message.
Thanks for hanging around here.
Returns because of authenticity between dealers occur because the dealer who made the sale wants to preserve his or her reputation. There are three things that are guaranteed to ruin your reputation as a dealer:
· Selling counterfeit and altered coins, especially if they are not marked as such. (My policy is to never sell copies less it is a very old electrotype that is marked as such, and then very rarely at that.)
· Passing bad checks
· Stealing coins.
A few years a go a collector rented a table at the Bay State Coin show in Boston. Apparently his goal was to get a dealer badge so that he could perhaps buy coins for less. He purchased one coin from a well-known national dealer and then returned it. The dealer grumbled, but gave him is money back. THEN and purchased more coins from the same dealer and tried to return some of them when he found a better deal.
The dealer hit ceiling and told this person where to go under no uncertain terms. In dealer-to-dealer transactions A DEAL IS A DEAL. If you made a bad buy and lose money on it TOUGH! The best you can do is learn from your mistakes. Retail customers can return coins. Wholesale customers, who have seen the coins before the purchase, almost always cannot return them.
But let's say there's a dealer I might patronize regularly. A coin I'm interested in is at another dealer's table. After examining the coin and asking the price, should I then leave to go back to my "regular" dealer and ask him to go buy it so he could sell it to me? That's awkward as well. I guess I assumed that the dealer being asked for an opinion already has a relationship with the customer and it's not as if the customer is a total stranger.
So if I would like a second opinion, what would be the right way to handle it?
And from the dealer's side, what about when someone comes to your table offering to sell some crap? Let's say, like I saw last weekend, it's a 20th century US type set of all low-grade and harshly cleaned coins. Aren't you going to have an unhappy customer no matter what you do? If you offer what it's worth, the customer will probably think you're trying to steal their coins for a song. If you pass, they don't understand why you aren't interested in their "valuable coins".
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I had a guy take my coin to a freakin microscope that some had set up and proceed to tell me that under a 50 power microscope he found a small scratch. It this way he said he could not pay my asking price. He wanted a discount. I was firm and sold the coin to the next guy for full price. It was a nice coin and no flaws.
I was in a coin shop the other day and over heard this conversation between a collector who had not been their before and the dealer...a very good one who has been in business 50 years. They were trying to buy a nice MS peace dollar raw, better date.
"So what is the real price for this coin"
"Thats the price, we try and price them right the first time."
"no come on, that too much. I know you have priced it high how much did you pay for it?"
The shop owner now getting mad said the following which I thought was great:
"Well, when I bought it about 40 years ago I probably paid a buck and a half for it..why?"
The guy bought the coin for the asking price.
TBIG
<< <i>But let's say there's a dealer I might patronize regularly. A coin I'm interested in is at another dealer's table. After examining the coin and asking the price, should I then leave to go back to my "regular" dealer and ask him to go buy it so he could sell it to me? That's awkward as well. I guess I assumed that the dealer being asked for an opinion already has a relationship with the customer and it's not as if the customer is a total stranger. >>
If a collector is a regular customer, and he asked for an opinion about a coin that he is considering OUTSIDE of earshot from another dealer, I will give him an honest opinion. If this person is helping me succeed in my business, I'll help him succeed in his collecting goals. And I'll check a price on something that another dealer has for a regular customer. Interestingly enough the price is usually quite similar to the amount that the dealer quoted my customer. Marks-ups are NOT THAT MUCH different between wholesale and retail at many shows.
BUT one thing that really galls me are guys who constantly ask for my opinion and then never buys anything from me EVER. I've had such people come to me at a show with a handful of coins and a patronizing line like "Everybody says you're the main expert here. What should I asking for these from the dealers" Then they refuse even to offer the coins to me. THAT gets under your skin.
The bottom line, however, is that dealers simply cannot exist without "collectors". You just can't keep selling coins back and forth among each other, can you? Unfortunately, there are unethical, rude, inconsiderate people in every facet of life. In my 50+ yrs of collecting coins, I've dealt with 99.99% courteous, helpful, honest coin dealers, and .01% not so nice. Pretty good odds, I'd say. JMHO, of course.
<< <i> had a guy take my coin to a freakin microscope that some had set up and proceed to tell me that under a 50 power microscope he found a small scratch. It this way he said he could not pay my asking price. He wanted a discount. I was firm and sold the coin to the next guy for full price. It was a nice coin and no flaws. >>
I had one customer who gave a want list that I started to fill. He was buying some really nice coins, and then he bought a 20X loupe. He started returning coins because these "little marks bother me."
This guy was NOT returning MS-69 coins. He was returning MS-63 coins because of marks that he found with his 20X. I told him nicely that 20X was not for grading. It is used mostly for counterfeit detection. Even with a 10X one must adjust to the fact the defects are greatly magnified under the glass, and mental adjustments must be made for the grade of the piece in question.
After he returned another coin, I told him to lose 20X or we were through. He opted for his 20X.
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Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Since Bill did say this is more of a thread for dealers, I'll throw out another two questions:
Doesn't it irritate you when you are trying to set up and other dealers come swooping over to go through your material, or ask you if you have this or that?
When a customer is offering you a coin, who should name the price?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
This happened in a bad way at the MSNS Fall Show last year. A guy actually took 2 double row boxes from the dealer next to me and then set-up shop at my table (the other dealer was a wholesaler and his table was packed). His customer completely covered one of my cases and hogged one of my lamps. Then he put his books and bag on my other case. I only have 3 cases at any given show.
I never engage the public in a situation like this. Instead, I waited......and waited.....and waited. After about 15 minutes (seemed like hours), I walked up to the dealer who owned the boxes and asked him to handle his customer. The dealer apologized to me and then, literally, yelled at the customer. I assume that he knew him. He said, "hey what are you doing?! Give me the coins and just come back later. Get off of his table".
Another thing that makes me kringe is when a customer (dealer or public) sets their Slurpy or Big Gulp on my case. That's just a disaster waiting to happen.
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<< <i>"Well, when I bought it about 40 years ago I probably paid a buck and a half for it..why?" >>
It is irritating to be interupted while setting up, but it is all part of the game.
I prefer having coins priced to me, unless the seller has no clue about the value. Normally, if I do offer on an item, it will either be a very scarce coin, one that I have on a want list, or one that I know I can turnover quickly. These offers normally disappear if the customer leaves the table. I hate to get into bidding wars, unless it is something I critically need.
Much of what Bill said in his initial post is very accurate, especially the wholesale/retail dilemna. The sales tax is another very sore point.
Feel free to contact me with any questions that you might have.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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<< <i>TextDoesn't it irritate you when you are trying to set up and other dealers come swooping over to go through your material, or ask you if you have this or that? >>
My rule is that I don't show any coins to anyone until I have set up. That avoids this situation when people are grabbing coins when I am trying to lay them out. It's too easy to have something get "lost."
Some dealers demand that they be the first people to look. I started giving out numbers like they do at the butchershop.
<< <i>When a customer is offering you a coin, who should name the price? >>
If a person is an experienced collector, he should know what he wants for his coins. People who run around the bourse looking for the highest "bids" often turn off many potential buyers.
If a person knows nothing about coins and selling an estate or the like, I will set and offer prices because there is no way that such a person would know what their stuff is worth.
What you need to realize is that a dealer can pay more relative his selling prices for items that are easy to sell and can be sold quickly. He’ll pay less for items that are hard to sell and those items that sell slowly.
For example I had an accumulation of Indian cents offered to me some years ago. All of the coins were raw. There was an 1877 for which I paid a good price bearing in mind that I would have to have the coin certified in order to sell it. I paid less than “bid” for the circulated common date coins because (1) It takes a while to sell those and (2) many collectors at the shows would pay no more than bid for them as raw coins and they were not worth slabbing.
Kranky, amen to that. That is a huge issue for me. Can't stand it. I can be very forgiving and patient with the public, but dealers should know better. I usually tell them very calmly that I am setting up and to come back in an hour. I have had dealers keep asking me even after I told them that I am not showing coins until completely set-up. Unbelievable, really. My rule is to never bother a dealer until they are open for business.
Another problem that I have is with dealers who have a total lack of consideration for other dealers. I am usually one of the last to set up at a show. I usually set up on the morning of the show, and not on set-up day the previous evening. Invariably, I arrive only to find that the adjacent dealers have taken my back-up table space for their own use. I can name a few dealers who do this to me every time. Drives me nuts!
Along the same line, I get irritated with dealers who are total slobs. I was set-up next to a national dealer at a Cincinnati show last year. These pigs had food and trash scattered all over the place. They also hogged up half of my back-up table space for the entire show. I did not want to make it an issue so I never said anything.
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42/92
As with any other business, dealers are in the business to make money and avoid getting screwed in the process. Collectors are in the industry to enjoy coins and avoid getting screwed in the process. It strikes me that what you dealers are describe is basicall born out of history in my opinion:
- On the issue of "the real price" of coins. I've been collecting coins for over 30 years, and one thing that I learned way back when, was that the price on the coin and the "real" price were two different things. If a dealer grades coins consistently and fairly - that is don't try to pass me an ACG MS65 as a "real" MS65, then there should be no problem with arriving at a price for a particular coin. If a collector insists on arguing for a better price, a polite statement like "well, if you can price a coin of this caliber at your price then by all means go for it, I feel this coin is priced correctly for this market" should suffice.
- On the issue of taking a coin to get a second opinion. My advice to dealers would be to politely suggest that if someone wants to look at a coin, they're more than welcome to come to your table and you'd be glad to show them the coin (particularly if this is someone you don't know) - and I would also add that you feel the coin is accurately graded and will not be changing the grade or price.
- On the issue of sales taxes. That's the way it is - if a buyer doesn't want to purchase a coin at a given price for any reason whatsoever, then politely tell the customer that the price is what it is and move on.
- On the issue the condition of coins. If someone bellyaches about the fact that an MS63 coin has dings on it. Why not provide them with a sample grading sheet, perhaps a copy of the page from the PCGS grading guide that shows the general condition of coins for a given grade? I think this will shut most people up - especially those trying to buy MS65 material at MS63 prices. Bad dealers are just as guilty of doing this when it comes time to sell. I've taken certified PCGS and NGC coins to a dealer to see what they could do for me on them, and had them tell me point blank that the grading services don't know what they're doing and that all my coins were grossly overgraded. I realize you guys reading this wouldn't do this - but guess what, one dealer that does this pisses on the entire dealer network and it's hard to recover from this.
- On the issue of returns. If a coin is graded and priced fairly, that is - you're not trying to recoup the "price you paid" because you made a mistake or because the market has changed, then a sign on at your table saying "returns will be gladly accepted on the same day of purchase provided the coin is intact in it's holder" then that should be no problem whatsoever. The problem arises when someone is trying to dump a coin that they know is a dog, for a price that is too high for that coin. In a collector's mind, if a coin is graded and priced fairly, then there should be no problems returning a coin. It's only when we get skewered buying a coin and 10 minutes later the coin has dropped in value by 50% - that's when transactions sting.
Both collectors and dealers can benefit from education in the etiquette of buying and selling coins. That's the value of having a forum like this to air out issues. I hope my comments are taken in the light they're intended and not as a slam on anyone on here. My transactions with dealers on this board have been extremely positive - why? Because we treat eachother respectfully and we are learning about the business as we go.
Frank
<< <i>When a customer is offering you a coin, who should name the price? >>
Now, as a collector I know what I would pay for a given coin, but how would I know what a dealer would pay? How are we supposed to know how much they need to mark it up. I want to get the most I can but obviously can't ask retail for it.
BTW Should I feel bad when I sold a coin for $575 and then later see it marked up to $1750?
Collectors should know about the market and their own feelings to make correct buy/sell decisions. Don't take it out on the dealer if he's given you a fair price and you think it's too much money!
As for myself, I have developed my market sense and emotions to a satisfactory level -- but it did take time. I only once blew my cool at a dealer -- when he sold me a counterfeit, and refused to take it back because it had been removed from its holder for grading!
I am willing to pay a premium price for a premium coin (naturally it's great to get it for less!) but not an extortionate price. (Bad dealers don't get my repeat business.) And when I sell a coin, my philosophy is that the dealer should be able to make a 12-25% profit on it if he turned around and sold it right away to another collector! Collectors should be mature about such things and realize the dealer has to make a living too, and not necessarily by holding the coin forever before selling, but through turnover within a reasonable period -- and customers can be hard to find.
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
<< <i>Bill's and Mark's comments cleared up the "second opinion" issue for me. Bill, you said "Marks-ups are that different between wholesale and retail at many shows. " Did you mean to say they aren't that different? >>
I should have said, the difference between retail and wholesale is "NOT that much differnt" at the shows.
How much of a difference? On $1,000 item it might be $25, $50 or $100. Or might be no more than the amount of the sales tax. It all depends upon the item in question. For really HOT coins - EVERYBODY pays the freight. For not so hot coins, there can be room to dicker.
It seems to me that the tensions described are attributable to the nature of the business. Rare coins are hardly commodities with large liquid markets. The marketplace for collectable is close to a traditional bazaar. Apparently many dealer as well as collectors are not totally comfortable with their venues. The development of grading services and value sheets were intended to structure the marketplace. They are only partially successful. There is a long road between the Diamond Mart and Tiffany's
Regarding seeking and giving advise: Some people feel comfortable in the service end of things either because it is their nature or part of their planned or inadvertant business strategy. In my service oriented employment I give advice every day with no expected reward. This is not standard practice in the field but my nature and consistent with my self image. Can demands for uncompensated advice be abused? Of course, but in my case rarely complained about.
Regarding business dealings: We all have our styles. I try to be honest and direct. If I am not a desired or respected customer for any reason I would like to be told. If the reasons are sound I have learned something. There are many other opportunities to find a seller/ customer relationship. If a dealer or collector wishes a fixed price relationship on their merchandice then they should say so and the rules are established.
Regarding coins on approval: Any collector who accepts every coin viewed on approval either has no threshold or has a dealer that knows the buyers taste and pocketbook so well that they are brothers day in and out. The latter is ideal but rarely attained as both parties are human and subject to some variability.
Lastly there is a lot of money passed between parties. There are big differences in the clientel and personalities of dealers. Some dealers are small businesspersons scratching out a living; some are high end with well heeled clientel. When the market is strong dealers are ebullient when the market is weak dealers are happy for the collectors that are still with them.
All material has a price on it but if somebody wants a few I will give them a deal, but when I quote my number that is my final number. At every show you always get a person or two that offers just crazy low numbers. Fortunatley I have all my material coded with what I paid for it and I just respond "I paid X for that one" while I take the coin back from them. Strange thing is they usually come back with another offer higher than what I paid. That's one thing I never mind is telling somebody exactly what I paid for a coin, but they never seem to understand that a table at a show is expensive along with airfare, lodging....
Another thing collectors need to realize that prices go UP if you piss of a dealer your working with by doing any of the above things mentioned. The discount from the full sticker price goes away completely if you covered my case for the last hour while you were going through boxes.
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The dealer knows what he is willing to pay. He's hoping the collector selling the coin undervalues it. It's just part of the dealer's game.
Last Baltimore show, I brought a few key date Barber Qs to sell. I didn't have to sell them, but thought I would if I got a decent offer. I showed the 1901-S to a well-known dealer. The Pres. was there and asked me what I wanted for it. I named my price, which was certainaly more than Graysheet for a coin like this. He snapped at me, "You know, I have to be able to make some money when I sell it." He could have avoided getting all hot and bothered if he named a price, and I politely declined. I wound up selling the coin on Ebay for more than I asked him for.
Regarding collector annoyances:
Dealers - don't forget you are a retailer. Nobody has to buy from you. You act nasty, don't put on your happy face, etc., you won't do well. You make your living, for the most part, by establishing a reputation and thrive on repeat business. Sure, you'll be exposed to idiots and jerks at times, but there's a right and wrong way to handle them. Be a grump and you won't be a success.
I’ve also seen people how have not purchased a table try to sell coins to people at a show other than the dealers who have paid for a table. That practice really gets under your skin if you have had a bad day. The people who pay for the show have the right to buy and sell. If you have not purchased a table, take it outside.
<< <i>I don't like haggling with a dealer... I love the dealers that put a sticker on the holder telling their prices... makes life MUCH simpler for me! >>
Example: Wanted to buy two coins, one sticker priced at $50 and the other $75. Asked dealer at the show if he could work on the price a bit and sold me both for $80.
<< <i>Be a grump and you won't be a success >>
AMEN Brother!
42/92
When I go to a show, I also get highly irritated with people who put their crap all over the cases...and I'm the customer! I want to see what's in there, and to me it seems like common consideration not to do that, so I sure can see why a dealer wouldn't like it. I would never do that. If I'm sitting or standing, the stuff I brought with me either stays in my hands, or goes on the floor securely between my feet.
I would never think of asking the dealer at the next table about the price/quality of a coin, right in earshot! What clods! You might as well tell the dealer who is offering the coin "I don't believe you. I think you're a liar. Let me ask this guy here."
I too, like the prices to be marked. I don't want to guess, and I don't want to dicker much, really. Maybe it is because I am a female and something of a novelty at big shows, but I've found that if I am buying a number of coins from the same table, the dealer will offer the discount without my asking for it. My idea of bargaining is to ask "Is this a firm price?" if I think the price is high. If the answer is yes, I pay it or not. I'm just not comfortable haggling. I think this comes from years of working in retail and thinking people were off their gourds when they would try to bargain with me like we were in a bazaar in Calcutta and not a suburban shopping mall.
I'm always amused when I am at a show with my husband (a non collector) and they ask him if he needs help. He wordlessly points to me, and the look of surprise is sometimes worth a chuckle. This look intensifies if I have something very specific I am looking for and I ask for it "Do you have any Oregons in 65 from NGC or PCGS I could see? White or lightly toned?" For some reason some don't seem to expect that out of little old me.
I try not to sit at a dealer's table at a crowded show for more than a few minutes unless I am fairly sure I will eventually buy something. Particularly if other customers are milling around waiting for a look.
I don't expect the dealer's undivided attention if there are other people around waiting for help. I don't tap my foot or drum my fingers impatiently on the case while I am waiting, either. I say please and thank you.
Now, I had a point to all that, besides to show you all how shiny is my halo. I find that many dealers respond well to me, will speak to me politely, even if I just saw them bark at someone else, and will answer my questions honestly and thoroughly...because I waited until they had time. They will ask me what I am looking for, and go digging through the stock to find it. As I said, they will offer me discounts off the marked prices without my asking. At the last big show I was at, the guy who wrote the book on the series I was interested in sat and talked to me for a good long time, educating me before I made a purchase...an invaluable experience.
My point? Most people will reward politeness with politeness in return. Of course, all that being said, knowing that I am not an obnoxious customer, I have no patience at all for dealers who I feel are treating me poorly. I was polite to him (or her) and I don't care how many buttheads they've dealt with today; I'm not a butthead and if you act like I am, I will leave and take my money with me.
Being a collector and seller (not a dealer as I do not make my living selling coins) here is my take on this subject.
Just to get off on the right foot, Dealers should remember, if it weren't for collectors, they would be out of business.
When I buy coins at a store or a show, I pay the price marked IF IT IS FAIR or make an offer on what I feel is fair. Not wholesale and not retail plus 25%. Generally, the offer is between wholesale and retail. If they don't want to sell it for that price, I walk away. I always chuckle to myself when I want to sell a coin, I get an offer below wholesale and if I want to buy a coin, the price is above retail. Then you dealers complain when someone wants to negotiate on the price. Dealers have caused this to happen. They try to over-price and/or over grade their coins to sucker the naive person into paying a premium but get mad when they get called on the rug by someone that has the least little bit of knowledge on the subject. I am not saying all dealers are like this but they are out there.
As for taking the coin to someone else. If I was a dealer, I would not allow that and I personally do not do it. I am not expert on coins but it is my decision if I should buy the coin in question. Do I like it, do I agree with the grade, is the price FAIR. If I like it but disagree with the price or grade, I will try to negotiate at fair price. If you don't like that, tell me up-front and I will thank you for your time and move to the next table. There are millions of coins out there and a lot of dealers.
I look at coin shows as flea markets. You are there to move your products and should be open to some negotiations. I would assume if you have been sitting on a coin for year and you would like to sell it, you would be willing to negotiate a little.
Let me ask you dealers this. Say I have a coin that is very desirable. One that seems to keep rising in price. I come to your table, show you the coin and say I want X amount for the coin (somewhere between retail and wholesale). How many of you are going to whip out your grey sheet and show me I am asking to much when all you need to do is either pay the price or say no. Well guess what. Many dealers will try to negotiate the price. Why is it you can whip your grey sheet out but the collect can't whip out his?
Another thing that I chuckle about is the dealer who makes a bad deal and tries to pass his poor dealing off on another. Like, I bought it as a XF when in reality it is an F to VF coin and the dealer indicates he is in it for X amount of money and needs to get that out of it and still has it marked as a XF coin because that is what he bought it as.
I know the dealers need to make a profit to stay in business but, like stocks and bullion, price go up and down and the commodity you are trying to make a living at has some risk.
Finally, and I know this is not the dealers fault but I find having to pay sales tax on an investment ridiculous. Give me a break. Could you imagine having to pay sales tax every time you went to the bank to buy a roll of coins??? We are all buying coins to collect and as an investment. We all expect them to increase in value. As far back as I remember, I have always described my coin find as "Do you know how much it coin is worth?"
In closing, some words of thought. When I go to a coin show (haven't been in a long while - guess that is what I get living in god's country), I will stop at the tables that have fairly priced coins. If I see one that is overpriced but I would like it, I leave and check the price to make sure I am not wrong. If I feel confident it is overprices, I will make a FAIR offer to the dealer. If he says "No" then it is over. If he counters with an offer fairly close to mine, I make take it or politely say, "Sorry, that is more than I want to spend."
If the coins on a table are not priced, then you left yourself wide open for major negotiates. If you coins are way overpriced, I keep moving as you are not worth wasting my time with.
Dealers, be forth right and honest with your pricing and grading. Be prepared for some negotiates. After all, you do need to make a living and a lot of sales if a slim profit pays the bills just as good a few sales with huge profits.
Collector, be polite and only negotiate in the reasonable manner. Don't browbeat the dealer. After all, he is not a used car salesman (sorry to nay used cars salesman out there
Ok, flame me. I am ready.
<< <i>People who are going through boxes of inexpensive material put there books or their coat on top of the case with the really good material in it bothers me. >>
Hey! Are you slamming us poor people? All I ever do at shows is scrounge through boxes and folders of cheap stuff.
(I don't bring any books, though.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Just to get off on the right foot, Dealers should remember, if it weren't for collectors, they would be out of business. >>
Several of you have made this point, but what you might not understand is that those of us who have been in business for while may have several customers to whom we might offer an unusually desirable coin. When we are in this position are we going to offer that piece to customer who is easy to work with or the guy who is a pain in the butt?
I ended a relationship with biggest customer I ever had because he got to be too much trouble. Here’s a list of what he did.
· No matter how cheap the price was he constantly made counter offers. During one slow period in the market I offered him a properly graded, rare coin for less than Blue Sheet, and he still counter offered. My mark-ups were often less than 10%, and that was OK because he was buying expensive stuff, but when they got below 5% I had had enough.
· I had a hard time getting his checks to clear. Since he and I banked at the same place I could show is checks to a teller I knew and she would check to see if they would clear. Sometimes I had to go back three times before he had the money in his account to cover it.
· He had to review EVERY PURCHASE with another dealer he trusted. This dealer could not supply him with the caliber of material that I was offering him, but the dealer had a veto power over his purchases.
· He demanded to know who my suppliers were. I told him, but I warned him that those suppliers would sell him anything they had in stock and would not filter the coins the way I had for him. He never tried to buy from those suppliers because he knew that I was telling him the truth.
He seldom came to shows, which was understandable because he was very busy making money, and I had to hand deliver the coins to him at his office.
In general I would have would have put up with the checks if he had been willing to pay fair prices, but he became increasingly unwilling to do that. His attitude because, "I don't need to buy this stuff."
Finally, I had had enough, and I ended the relationship. If this person were to sell that coins that I had sold to him today over the past 5 years, he would make several hundred thousand dollars from his investments and come close to doubling his money. He killed to goose that was laying the golden eggs for him so far as I was concerned. He become too much high maintenance relative to what his business was worth.
Yes, folks it is a two way street.
<< <i>Heh, feel better now Bill Jones?
Hmmm... I try to be nice and ask a question. I guess I don't merit an answer. So now you get one of these
I don't blame you one bit for ending your relationship with this guy. I can see your are probably a decent guy to buy/sale/trade with.
Unfortunately, I do not have a "working relationship" with any coin dealer as there is only one in town and he prices his coins at retail + 25%. I went into his store one time and have not been back since.
The only relationship I have had with a coin dealer was when I was 10 years old. He was a very fair and honest person who fed my interest in collecting coins. He died when I was 14. That was 1969.
42/92
Here's my collector's point of view:
1. I do not like to buy coins at shows. I prefer to spend my money with people that I have worked with before and trust. Some of my biggest blunders were coins purchased at shows from dealers that I do not usually work with. My show purchases tend to be impulsive. I do not like the lighting, the conditions, the pressure of the decision in person. I concede that I may miss opportunities by shunning coin show purchases.
2. When I do buy coins (at shows or elsewhere), I do not haggle on price. I will ask what something costs. If I like the coin and I think it is reasonable, I will buy it. If not, I will pass. No counter-offers, no begging, and similarly, no entertaining counters.
3. I am not a slave to price guides. Some coins are real nice for the grade and some are not. If I choose to buy a nice coin for the grade, I am not afraid to pay for it.
4. I like it when prices are marked on coins. I understand that this may not be the final price, but it least it gets me into the ballpark. I am not a walking Greysheet, and I do not want to waste your time if the coin is way out of my ballpark.
5. I change my mind, maybe in as many as 20% of my purchases. Sometimes I make a purchase, it sits with me for a while, and I decide I do not like it. I do not expect a buy-back for 100% what I paid, but trading priviliges at 100% do not seem unreasonable.
A general comment:
I have been to several big shows in the last two years since getting back into collecting, including the Central States in St. Louis, the last two Silver Dollar Shows in St. Louis, and 2004 FUN, as well as a handful of smaller regional shows. I find the dealers especially at big shows to be not especially engaging to the collectors and sometimes, frankly, aloof. There are exceptions to this. My perception is that the dealers go to the big shows to deal with each other and then come home to sell their new purchases to their established client base. I do not see much of an effort to interact and engage with potential new clients.
Over the last ten years, I had gone to summer shows in St. Louis every year or two. Had a dealer engaged me in conversation, asked about what I was interested, spend some time teaching me about a series, or suggested a book or two, I may have been an active collector for the last ten years instead of the last two. I think that dealers, as a group, are missing an opportunity to promote the hobby and further enhance their business.
<< <i>
<< <i>People who are going through boxes of inexpensive material put there books or their coat on top of the case with the really good material in it bothers me. >>
Hey! Are you slamming us poor people? All I ever do at shows is scrounge through boxes and folders of cheap stuff.
(I don't bring any books, though.
Russ, NCNE >>
No I love selling the cheap stuff, it has to go somewhere and god knows I've got a ton of it, just don't cover the case of the good stuff while you sit there for an hour sifting though all the other goodies
J&J Coins
website
Wild Ebay Toners for sale
The big O
Thanks for getting this started. Should be archived as one of the top 100 educational threads of the decade.
I have to admit that I have made some bonehead moves in the past and thankfully, when I have made them, dealers have realized the innocence behind them and corrected me gently. I felt like an idiot but hey, we all do sometimes.
I think I have about 92% of the etiquette down now and I dont think that I have pissed anybody off today
What most of these issues come down to is a lack of consideration on one or both parties. All of us, no matter how considerate we try to be, occasionally get involved in ourselves and forget to think about the other guy, whether it is dealer or collector. It happens, we are all human.
After dabbling in the dealer market, I can see why so many dealers get upset about things and since I am still a collector, I understand why so many collectors get pissed.
It takes quite a bit to get me riled up and while most of the issues that Bill and others have talked about, I usually let them roll off my back. (Maybe this is because I dont deal for a living and I have only been doing it for a while
The only thing that really gets my heart racing is rudeness. Most of the other transgressions described above can be forgiven based on naivete or carelessness and lack of consideration.
However, when someone is being rude, they are blatantly disrespecting the other person. I have seen it about equally from collector and dealer alike and there is no excuse for it at all.
The infamous Portland Penny Pincher falls in this category...
V.r,
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>The infamous Portland Penny Pincher falls in this category... >>
I agree
“First many collectors think that they should be able to buy coins at wholesale prices as soon as they subscribe to the Gray Sheet.”
I want to trade with a dealer that has some set of rules they go by, I do not care what price sheets they happen to be using as long as it is not two different ones. If a dealer uses the grey sheets then I want him to buy at bid and sell at ask. There are way to many dealers out in the world that want to buy at grey sheet bid and sell at CW coin Values.
“Some collectors insist upon taking coins around the floor to get a second opinion from other dealers.”
I often do this, but I always ask the selling dealer if he is an expert in the area of the coin. If he says no, I ask if I can take it to one of the experts on the floor. I have been saved lots of trouble doing this.
“These are couple of reasons why many dealers don’t like to work with the public at shows.”
My current opinion of shows is that they are a nice place to be social, but in general a waste of time for most established collectors. Most shows are really set up so that dealers can cherry pick from each other all the better priced coins a day or two before.
Modern dealers should all have websites, with published bottom line prices and quotes from the grey sheets or what ever they are using to established the prices. All of their coins listed that are worth slabbing should be slabbed by one of the top 3 graders. If a coin is body bag they should state that in the description , and why it was bagged. Doing this eliminates the following:
1. All travel except to buy new material
2. All travel expenses, gas, hotels, meals, set up fees etc. etc.
3. All taxes except for buyers with in state purchases
4. All travel insurance costs
5. I am sure the dealers out there can think of one hundred more things.
All of these things would make a better price for the collectors and move more inventory for the dealers.
I have been guilty of some of the mentioned irritating behavior. The dealers I work with have apparently put
up with me because I must have other redeeming qualities. Most of the irritations I have corrected on my own
and after reading this thread I will correct the rest. This shows that even people who consider themselves good
and friendly customers can at times be slightly irritating.Perhaps this is the reason I would never become a dealer,
my poor nerves couldnt stand the guff.
On the other hand, aside from my own quirkes and irritating slip ups, I recognise that there are times that
a dealer may be grumpy ,because they have not eaten and their blood sugar is low. They may have had an
argument with several obnixious people and they may seem curt ,while they try to get their blood pressure down.
Other times, too much to do, too many demands on their attention, too many questions ,can glaze the eyes of
a dealer and make them seem less then responsive. For all of these things, I am forgiving as the dealers forgive
my own short comings. It is not a perfect world, some times dealers and collectors must make allowences and be
patient, while they both remember that everybody may have a bad hair day from time to time.
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>Heh, feel better now Bill Jones?
Hmmm... I try to be nice and ask a question. I guess I don't merit an answer. So now you get one of these
I did not respond to you because by the tone of your post, I perceived that you want to start a flame war, which is not at all my intent for this thread.
<< <i>I am a collector and I do not sell coins. In reading the comments on this thread, I have to admit that at times, I have been guilty of some of the mentioned irritating behavior. >>
A customer who keeps his word, is reasonable most of the time, and who is willing to pay fair prices, makes up for many, many shortcomings.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Heh, feel better now Bill Jones?
Hmmm... I try to be nice and ask a question. I guess I don't merit an answer. So now you get one of these
I did not respond to you because by the tone of your post, I perceived that you want to start a flame war, which is not at all my intent for this thread. >>
Nope not my intent at all. I guess that's how I'm taken on the forum because I will say what I have to say at times. Believe it or not I never do intend to start a flame war and I also put a
I understand how things can be perceived in the wrong context... but if everything that anybody does gets on your nerves perhaps it's time to get into something else. No flame here just once again saying my feelings. But if this is how I'm perceived on this forum I guess it's time for me to go away just like others have done.
<< <i>One thing that really bothers me (and this applies to dealers, as well), is when someone asks for my "best price", I proceed to give it to them and then they counter-offer, sometimes more than once.
In their defense, not everyone really gives their best price when asked to do so. But, I do - if you don't believe me, try me sometime.
Huh?
My hope would be that relations between dealers and collectors at shows improve so that more dealers would stick around longer. Sunday is a lost cause, but the other days should not be. I'm afraid however that they might become lost causes if things continue as they are.
Collector buying partterns are much different from dealers. Dealers will buy anything from which they think that they can make money. Collectors mostly want to fill holes in their collections. For that reason their focus is almost always much narrower, and it's harder to sell to them. For me it's much easier to sell to other dealers at shows despite the fact that I am very willing to spend a lot of time with collectors who have a genuine interest.
I had a newsletter for years, I am very willing to exchange information with collectors via emails. It's just really nice if they buy something now and then so that it's worth my while too.