PCGS Stating Copper Coins As Cleaned Or Artificially Toned.

Franklin · May 16, 2004 5:05AM

Recently, I sent several coins to PCGS for grading. Among them were three Lincoln Cents from 1916, 1919, and 1920. When the coins were returned to me, two of them were stated to be artificially toned, while the third was listed as being cleaned. Since all three coins were originally collected by my Grandfather, I know with 100% certainty that none of them were cleaned or artificially toned. Since they never actually graded or slabbed the coins, I think it takes a lot of nerve to charge the $30 fee per coin, since they undoubtedly looked at all three for less than 1 minute of their time. I decided to resubmit them to PCGS, along with some additional coins. This time, they all came back correctly graded, without any mention of cleaning or artificial toning. It cost me an additional $90 to have these coins submitted for a second time. How can PCGS be so blatantly wrong on the grading the first time? Are they just trying to make extra money, knowing that the coin submitter has no choice but to resubmit them? It doesn't seem fair. Thanks.

mdwoods · May 16, 2004 5:10AM

Welcome to the world of old copper grading. The grading services are especially wary of older copper, IMO.

coinguy1 · May 16, 2004 5:15AM

<< Since all three coins were originally collected by my Grandfather, I know with 100% certainty that none of them were cleaned or artificially toned. >>

Franklin, unless you had possession of the coins from the time they were minted, there is no way you can be 100% (or anywhere near) certain of that. Perhaps your grandfather didn't clean or tone them (if they were even cleaned or artificially toned) but someone who had them before him, did. I have seen many people make similar comments, but frankly, there is just no way you or they can KNOW such things with 100% certainty. Lots of collectors and dealers own cleaned coins without ever being aware of it.

The inconsistency in the grading results is another matter, though I don't think it was a conscious decision to try to get more money from you or someone else. Still, it's a shame you experienced that.

rainbowroosie · May 16, 2004 5:16AM

How do you KNOW they were not cleaned?? The AT really means not market acceptable -- I'm sure they graded your coins and had a question. I've had similar experiences with coins I too "know" hvae real toning.

jeffnpcb · May 16, 2004 5:22AM

Welcome to the brave new world of submission mishaps. Unfortunately, it isn't the first time, nor the last. It depends on who saw the coins first and then the second grader that got them right. I would contact customer service and show your findings off the invoice numbers.
It reminds of Russ with the 2 cent shield. That was a sad and funny story line. The best part is he came out ahead in the end as you with your second try!
I would have a few other knowledgable people look at them first before you submit again if possible.

Barry · May 16, 2004 5:43AM

Franklin - I agree with you. In my cynical opinion, it's part of their business model. Generates a lot more income per coin.

relayer · May 16, 2004 7:58AM

<< knowing that the coin submitter has no choice but to resubmit them? >>

you certainly have the choice not to resubmit them.

There are a number of human factors that come into play when giving a subjective opinion - from the number of toned coins they looked at that day to how strong the coffee was.

Since we pay for expert opinions, it would be nice if that expert opinion was more consistent.

Do you have any pictures?

Russ · May 16, 2004 8:08AM

<< It reminds of Russ with the 2 cent shield. >>

DNC
Bodybag, Altered Surfaces
MS65BN pop 1/0

Yep, Franklin, welcome to the spinning wheel.

Russ, NCNE

BillJones · May 16, 2004 8:35AM

Yep! The grading services treat copper submission VERY POORLY.

A silver coin, especially an early silver coin can be cleaned, recolored, dipped and even have initials scratched into the field and still get graded. An early gold coin can have its surfaces stripped and actually altered IMO.

An early copper coin has to walk on water, and even if it walks on water, it could still the shaft.

I HATE getting sending early copper in for grading.

More often than not you get treated very poorly, and you have no redress.

THEN you can go to show and see a piece of early copper in the holder that is a TOTAL MESS, so go figure.

The best thing to do with really good early copper is to sell it raw to copper specialist dealers or to collectors with the statement that it flunked at PCGS or NGC. Quite often they buy it anyway because the grading services really don't know early copper well at all and they won't listen to you at all.

tsacch · May 16, 2004 8:42AM

Kinda reminds me of the medical field of today...............Doctors make money on repeat visits.....why cure the problem when you can treat the symtoms and have patients come back time and time again. Orthopedists are the best at this. They can solve simple problems, but they only make money if you come back.............so why solve the problem the first time.

get my drift?

PCBUM · May 16, 2004 9:01AM

I had the same type experience with PCGS and sometimes I wonder if it's a money thing. PCGS is definitely not perfect. I started submitting to them this year and it’s been nothing but head aches. I submitted three-toned SAE back in January and they came back in body bags for AT toning. I knew they were wrong, because I took them out of the Mint roll and placed them in an album where they had toned. I resubmitted them and all three came back in a PCGS holder MS69. Recently I had submitted a 2002 Proof SAE and it had come back PR68 DCAM. The grade surprised me so I broke it out of the holder and resubmitted the coin. I got it back this last Friday graded PR70 DCAM. Paid for two submissions and got two different grades......

Russ · May 16, 2004 9:07AM

<< Recently I had submitted a 2002 Proof SAE and it had come back PR68 DCAM. The grade surprised me so I broke it out of the holder and resubmitted the coin. I got it back this last Friday graded PR70 DCAM. >>

You had a proof SAE go from 68DCAM to 70DCAM? Holy crap. HUGE difference in value on that one!

Russ, NCNE

PCBUM · May 16, 2004 9:12AM

<You had a proof SAE go from 68DCAM to 70DCAM? Holy crap. HUGE difference in value on that one!>

Yup, it makes up for having to send it in twice........

MacCrimmon · May 16, 2004 10:05AM

<< Quite often they buy it anyway because the grading services really don't know early copper well at all and they won't listen to you at all. >>

How true! You must mean a copper like this one which received a BB from PCGS for AT. No wonder the copper specialists have little regard for TPGrading's alleged expertise.

<< THEN you can go to show and see a piece of early copper in the holder that is a TOTAL MESS, so go figure. >>

....and, that's what really disturbs me!

ALL of these early US Classics should be graded by true experts and specialists and NOT GENERALISTS.

jonesy · May 16, 2004 7:22PM

I sent in two 1909VDB's that were sent back as unusual color. Sent them a second time, they came back unusual color!! I believe it's because they don''t have dark edges.

One of these coins is a non miss MS67.

jonesy · May 16, 2004 7:22PM

I sent in two 1909VDB's that were sent back as unusual color. Sent them a second time, they came back unusual color!! I believe it's because they don''t have dark edges.

One of these coins is a non miss MS67.

dorkkarl · May 16, 2004 9:20PM

live by the plastic, die by the plastic.

K S

PCGS Stating Copper Coins As Cleaned Or Artificially Toned.

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