Looney Lincolns - 1953-D MS67RD
Coppernicus
Posts: 1,764 ✭
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
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Coppernicus
Posts: 1,764 ✭
Comments
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
Sshhh... I am going snipe this coin at the last second
W.C. Fields
Wondercoin
Ssshhhh....Pleeeaase. Just a little over 5 hours left
This coin is a PCGS AU-55, with orignal surfaces, which not that easy locate. A disappointingly large number of these coins have stripped to make them shine.
I know everyone has different tastes, but I just don't understand the motavation to pay prices like this for coins that are so common on a overall basis.
< In a cough > Bull$hi#... No offensive but if you put back a legit 53-D in 67RD in a roll it was not bright < actually stupid > to say the least, or it was not a true 67RD by PCGS standards < which are MS68's by other grading companies (at least currently )>.
Yeah these are so easy to find. Just think of the countless thousands of dollars gone, put back in a roll. Imagine if you could find 1 of these a day and quit whatever job you may have now.
Thank you!
coppercoins,
You have a vast and impressive knowledge of the series, and I have a great respect for what you do. That makes it hard for me to even try to understand the nature of your occasional smack-talking compulsion.
A number of very smart and talented individuals spend a great deal of time, effort and money to find coins such as this, usually without a great deal of success, and yet you expect us to believe that for some reason you have such easy access to them that you can't even be bothered to save them. Makes it easy to say when you didn't save the coins...can't disprove you. You also don't like the way PCGS grades...so of course you won't be sending in any of this "pocket change" next time you just happen across it.
Please do one of the following:
1. Pick a Lincoln Wheat Cent with a MS67RD population of 7 or less and double the pop in 6 months (by yourself, you must make/own the coins) and back up your words.
2. Stop insulting the people who understand the scarcity of such coins with your unfounded, unprovable, overblown and egotistical claims.
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
He only writes that he re-rolled some coins he thinks were like this cent.
Why is that reason to repeatedly slam his head into the ground????
>>>He only writes that he re-rolled some coins he thinks were like this cent.
>>>Why is that reason to repeatedly slam his head into the ground????
The reason I laid into him was that coppercoins is a well respected and knowledgeable Lincoln variety collector/webmaster/attributer and when he makes statements they are taken, many times, with more seriousness than if someone else had made the statement. I have more than once asked him for his advice with errors within the Lincoln series.
However there are some of us collectors that know certain aspects of the hobby a bit better, e.g. the rarity of super GEM 50's Lincoln's. So when I saw/read of an public authority stepping, what I consider, over the line I felt it was my duty to correct him. I probably could have been more tactful (like Rella) but its not often my style and I apologize.
Sssshhhh.....just under three hours.
Is this how I'm suppose to snipe, Rella?
Coppercoins' statement makes perfect sense to me. I could see him looking at rolls and seeing similar coins. MOST people don't have coins graded. In this situation it certainly doesn't make any sense. The population seems pretty meaningless to me. How many people are going to send in a $3 PQ coin when 999 times out of 1000 it's going to come back a 66 or less and not even be worth the submission fee? At 67 the coin is magically worth $4000 to a registry set collector.
I'm sure he's right - there's probably MANY, MANY Lincolns out there of similar quality that will NEVER be submitted.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
This was exactly our point. 999 out of 1000 times that PQ coin is a 66 not a 67. But you are wrong, an MS66 is worth the grading fee so it still would be worth the effort to send in an MS66, so why don't people? Well - because 66's are even tough (for this mint/year), hence the difficulty in finding MS67's, a population of 7 and a value of $4K.
Barracuda: Even by your analysis, the fellow with 1,000 raw coins at or near the quality of this PCGS-MS67RD coin, will end up spending $16,000 in grading fees at the end (assuming he submits under the cheapest regular tier service) to land one!! The incredible time (ever try to write up 1,000 coins for grading after culling them out of tens of thousands of possible coins?), effort (ditto), expense ($16,000?) - heck, maybe $4,250 is way too cheap for a "PQ" specimen!
Wondercoin
The words "like this" are subjective when thrown around...but without further clarification here they mean "a coin that PCGS would grade MS67RD". Coppercoins doesn't see material of that quality all the time, which is what he asserts. No one sees material "like this" with any frequency. Coppercoins has made this claim a number of times...which is a lot like telling someone you could beat them at something but it is not worth the effort, which is a bit insulting to someone who expends effort on whatever is in question. What I am doing is going after him in an attempt to goad him into accepting a challenge to prove himself right and to prove me wrong regarding the rarity of these coins and/or his ability to find them in quantity.
JTK,
Don't tense up...lotsa time left in this one. I would recommend attending happy hour at a local bar, or perhaps a short vacation before the auction ends. Just be back in front of your computer with five minutes to go. I like to set the alarm on my cell phone.
clack,
I was trying to be less tactful than you, I thought you were being too nice.
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
morris <><
ps, I sure wish mitch would do pictures...at least on coins like this
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
<< <i>Why cast your pearls to the swine. Save your breath. If they don't want to think a coin of this magnitude is anything special let it be. A coin like that speaks for itself among the people that matter. >>
There are people who read this who have not formed an opinion on the matter. What person who reads what coppercoins asserts and sees no intelligent response is going to become a high grade certified Lincoln collector...when according to the expert (note the use of expert, not "expert") coppercoins, the $4K+ PCGS coin is common raw in the same condition?
BTW...even if coppercoins could make seven more of this date in this grade in six months, it is unlikely that any would be a match for the actual specimen for sale here.
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
Some people collect stamps, string, navel lint. Others collect not just coins, but coins in the most pristine, perfect, dazzling condition that man is capable of.
If such a coin then gets sent to PCGS and PCGS recognizes such perfection, such coins then may come into the hands of those collectors who say that I have now in my possession, and am able to gaze upon whenever I want, the coin that at one point of human history passed before the eyes of the toughest, most exacting and demanding appraisers in numismatics, and was crowned king and canonized before flashing bulbs and cheering throngs.
Even if that isn't everybody's cup of tea, isn't that kind of cool?
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
<< <i>My consignor on the coin (a dedicated collector of the Lincoln series) felt strongly it was a "$5,000 coin". >>
Interesting that a "dedicated collector of Lincolns" is the seller. One would think a dedicated collector would not want to part with a rare gem. Or is he selling a duplicate? Or is he, like Wondercoin, content with an MS 66 and happy to reap a windfall on this sale before more rolls get searched and graded?
Edited to add: And perhaps the more likely sources of newly made high grade gems to add to the population are the collections of other equally dedicated collectors who, seeing the prices these coins are attaining, decide to pull their raw gems from their personal collections and send them in for grading and sale.
CG
Yes I have seen a number of relatively mark free coins, that, on certain days with Jupiter in the right position in the sky could have graded MS67 through PCGS. I did not send them in and never would - it's just not my nature.
What you fail to see is that I am not in a high-grade certified "make 'em and screw people with 'em" game here. I study die varieties. If it's not a die variety, it goes back in the roll. Period. I have seen a number of bright red coins in the past with the right strike and lack of marks that would make the grade (at certain times) with PCGS, but if they aren't die varieties they go back in the roll.
I had the opportunity a few months back to view a super-monster box (for cards) packed FULL of MS66 graded coins from all the different services, save ACG and SEGS. The box contained MANY PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and PCI coins in it, with the majority being NGC and PCGS. Out of over 300 coins I agreed that just over a dozen of them were truly 66 coins, and that included the PCGS coins in the bunch. Most of them were 65 at best, many were 64, and a few would come out 63 if resubmitted.
I have also seen a number of coins graded 67 and know what the standards for 67 are at different times with different companies. When I see a 67 at a show with the lofty price stickers on the (usually in the hundreds) I tell myself that someone is getting ripped because I see coins like that often, and can get them for no more than a few bucks each out of rolls. "Often" being at least a couple of coins out of a couple of rolls a year for each of the dates and mints I have been through, save a few. 1953D is one of those few, but I have indeed stuck what would be high grade coins back in rolls because they were not doubled dies or RPMs.
Now...why wouldn't I want to submit some of these coins and "make" 67 slabs out of them and get rich? Well, because I am morally against it. Period. Take it for what it's worth, that's my reason. I am not in this for profit, I am not in this to rip people off, and this is not an "investment" to me. It is a fun hobby when it is left to be fun, and it is not my intent to buy a $3 coin and turn it into thousands. That's just me, call me what you want to call me - I really don't care. The whole thing to collecting for me is in the science of matching and identifying coins struck from flawed dies. That's what I like, and that's what I like to do. Those who want to bash me for NOT wanting to be a part of a game where $3 coins are stuck into a subjective piece of plastic just to sell it for thousands can bash me if you like.
It really starts taking the fun out of the whole experience when someone comes around calling me the village idiot (in so many words) because I don't see honesty in spending a fortune to get on the better side of a slabbing company just so I can rip the next guy off on a coin....just not my style. I try to be honest with everything I do and could not look myself in the mirror after spending a couple of bucks on a coin and sticking a holder on it calling it a thousand dollar coin just because some flaky company says so. I have always and will always deal in my coins uncooked (my word for your odd word "raw"), thank you very much. If people here cannot accept that I don't agree with slabbing coins to get rich off of them, then perhaps this is not the place for me to be.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>What you fail to see is that I am not in a high-grade certified "make 'em and screw people with 'em" game here. >>
<< <i>I tell myself that someone is getting ripped because I see coins like that often >>
<< <i>I am not in this to rip people off >>
<< <i>get on the better side of a slabbing company just so I can rip the next guy off on a coin >>
So, by inference, those who submit and sell high grade coins are thieves?
<< <i>Those who want to bash me >>
Good thing you didn't bash anybody.
Russ, NCNE
I think this is cause for me to take off for a while - probably a long while. I don't NEED THIS $HIT!!!!
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
O'K, with that said let's get back to the issue....25 min to go... should I bid now? The tension is mounting, I'm getting nervous...
Interestingly, while Lincolns are probably the hottest series out there, this coin MS67RD sells for less than say a 1952(d) quarter in PCGS-MS67 (around same pop), a 53(d) Wash Carver in PCGS-MS66 (roughly same price) from the same year and so on. Indeed, the MS67FBL Franklin from this year might even be a $25,000+ coin right now or 6x the price of the Lincoln. Hey - I am not defending the Lincoln, my auction does not hype the Lincoln, my auction does not take Liberties with photographing the Lincoln in a favorable light - I am simply pointing out that nearly ALL early 1950's material in top grade is expensive. Let's just agree on one thing - the Lincoln is no more "looney" than any other coin from the early 1950's that would be offered in the top grade to the collectors in that field who would appreciate it
Wondercoin
Clackamas,
I know who the bidder is and that's why I am chicken
Just over 5 minutes to go....
<< <i>Interestingly, while Lincolns are probably the hottest series out there, this coin MS67RD sells for less than say a 1952(d) quarter in PCGS-MS67 (around same pop), a 53(d) Wash Carver in PCGS-MS66 (roughly same price) from the same year and so on. >>
It also sells for less than the Accented Hair Kennedy in PCGS 68DCAM (similar pop at 8/0).
Russ, NCNE
And it goes to Lauren's Lincolns for $4250
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
The fact that I this the price is "lunacy" (IMHO) should in no way be considered a criticism of the seller.
Breathe deep and relax!
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
<< <i>>>>How many people are going to send in a $3 PQ coin when 999 times out of 1000 it's going to come back a 66 or less and not even be worth the submission fee?
This was exactly our point. 999 out of 1000 times that PQ coin is a 66 not a 67. But you are wrong, an MS66 is worth the grading fee so it still would be worth the effort to send in an MS66, so why don't people? Well - because 66's are even tough (for this mint/year), hence the difficulty in finding MS67's, a population of 7 and a value of $4K. >>
This comment pretty well sums up the situation. ONE GRADING COMPANY controls the supply of these coins. Out of the holder, these things are just cents with MS-67, Red potential. Suddenly when they get into the holder, the pirce goes up ten to a hundred fold.
We've seen by the quality of the alleged “PR-70 DCAM” 1963 cent that the quality inside does not always match what it says on the outside. Yet, given the auction bids for this “illusionary coin,” that fact does not seem to make any difference.
The collectors, who appear to be making this market, seem to have been around for a few years. Therefore I guess we can call them “advanced collectors” and not neophytes who don’t know the score. I’ll leave this market to them because from my prospective I see an abnormal amount of financial risk here. Those who have dealt in coins for a number of years know than once you get into the 5 figures and higher, the ranks of collectors who can or will spend that type of money of a single piece thins out pretty fast. It doesn’t take much of a drop in demand or increase in supply to cause high priced items to lose a significant portion of their value.
We know that the mintages on these coins were very high. We also that large numbers of “BU” were saved in roll quantities. The question is are the MS-67, Red coins that rare? If they are, will the fact that there are loads of MS-65 and 66 around, ultimately affect the value of the MS-67s in the long run? AND the final wild card is, what if PCGS decides “to make” some more MS-67s? In the classic coin market, the quickest way to find out if something is rare to say it’s rare and publicize some high prices. Some would-be “kings” have been knocked off of their thrones that way when new examples came out of the woodwork.
There are too many risks here for me. I’ll let that segment of the market hash it out.
One of the risks in collecting 19th century coinage, especially gold. I doubt there is a sunken ship from the 1940's or 1950's that went down with a cargo load full of Bank Wrapped Lincoln cent and Jefferson Nickel rolls
Wondercoin
jus' cauzin trubel....
Or perhaps when you have seen one MS-67, Red Lincoln from the '50s, you have seen them all.
Wondercoin
<< <i>I typically get roughly 1-2 returns PER YEAR >>
and I have been wasting all this time on taking photos!
Mitch:
Can I send all my coins to you to auction for me?
stirring up the pot also
Wondercoin
P.S. I own a handful of 35(s) in 66RD already and a board member just sent me one at $260 net to me, which I simply posted on ebay.
P.S.S. JB - you are doing quite well on your own
Not much reason to return an insert, now is there.....
Dear Wondercoin, I appreciate very much the opportunity to bid in your auction. But after receiving the slab, I realized that the color of the insert just doesn't match my collection. Therefore, I'd like to return it..... BTW, that funny looking copper thing attached below the label looks pretty much like all my other ones, so I guess it was ok.....
<< <i>
What you fail to see is that I am not in a high-grade certified "make 'em and screw people with 'em" game here. I study die varieties. If it's not a die variety, it goes back in the roll. Period. I have seen a number of bright red coins in the past with the right strike and lack of marks that would make the grade (at certain times) with PCGS, but if they aren't die varieties they go back in the roll. >>
If you set aside the issue of professional grading for a moment (good luck, I know), what you are doing isn't so different than what the high-end set builders are doing. It's just that the ones you keep (the varieties), they throw back, and the ones they keep (mark-free early strikes) you would throw back. Two sides of the same coin (ungh, I can't believe I just made that analogy...)
<< <i>I try to be honest with everything I do and could not look myself in the mirror after spending a couple of bucks on a coin and sticking a holder on it calling it a thousand dollar coin just because some flaky company says so. >>
Suppose you found a 1969-S DDO in an OBW. After spending a couple of bucks on the roll, and then taking out a coin and sticking it in a holder and calling it a thousand dollar variety, would you have an easier time looking yourself in the mirror?
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Sean, your analysis is a "perfect strike."
talking beanie babies or automobiles each collector can taylor his collection to his own
hopes, dreams, desires, and budget. There may be some who consider themselves pur-
ists and disdain the collection of things which are not mainstream, but the fact remains
that people are going to collect what is right for them. Perhaps much of the reason that
there are so many unusual and off-the-beaten-path collectibles enjoying a wider audience
is simply that the mainstream collecibles have become so extraordinarily pricey. A modern
painting by a master may command many millions of dollars so collectors seek out other
art in other media. A popular old car painstakingly restored may be priced out of most
everyone's budget but a never driven 10 year old Yugo or Delorean may appeal to these
collectors.
Ironically a very similar thing appears to be happening in coins. Lower budget collectors
still seek rarity so they are driven to the areas where rarity is still available on a budget:
Varieties and High grade.
Purists may scoff, but people are having a blast with these coins. Lest some think it's only
about money, keep in mind that many of the new collectors are "buying" many of their coins
at face value or for nominal amounts. There are many varieties in circulation and every year
the mint dumps more gems into circulation.
It really shouldn't be too surprising to anyone that in a rapidly growing area like the more
recent date coins that some may appear to have gotten way ahead of themselves in price or
that some are obviously overpriced or overgraded.